No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Teddysad
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No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:31 pm

My recent trials

I used a (Chinese ) Angel Yeast (for liquor making) which comes with included enzymes

This is designed for converting grain to sugar as it ferments so mashing / malting is not required

500ml of corn ground to a meal, soaked in 2 litres of hot water for 10 minutes.

All added to 5l demijohn and topped to 4.5 litres with cool water.

1g (yes 1 gram) of the Angel Yeast rehydrated in warm water for 10 minutes.

Demi temp was at 30C and yeast added. Airlock installed .

Following on from this I tried
1 500g white Rice and 1g yeast in water
2 200g barley, 200g rye and 100g crushed weetbix 2g yeast
The ferment:

AFter racking off from the grain I was left with about 3.5l of liquid which I let settle for a couple of days
and the strip run
[
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image.png (176.62 KiB) Viewed 7800 times

Produced 400ml at 20% abv with a great smell and taste (for low wines)

No added sugar no mashing. no malting It is alive and it works.

Now to scale up. both the above were light on grain .
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Expat » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:05 pm

Teddysad wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:31 pm
This is designed for converting grain to sugar as it ferments so mashing / malting is not required
It would work to a limited degree, but its highly inefficient. "Malting" isn't required, plenty of guys doing conversion with enzymes. However, mashing is important; the point is to gelatinize the starches and make them available for conversion to sugars. Sure you might get some starches converted to sugar, but at 30C its going to take a long time and FAIL to access most.

Teddysad wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:31 pm
500ml of corn ground to a meal, soaked in 2 litres of hot water for 10 minutes.
As mentioned, this isn't enough gelatinize your starches, so your yield will be low.

Conversion by enzyme isn't a new thing around here, the process is well understood. Have a look around at some of the threads.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by cayars » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:17 pm

Was what you added Koji or koji-kin (used in making Sake) by any chance?
Sound rather similar to making sake (converting grain to sugar as it ferments).

Looking forward to hearing your results and process on bigger batches.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:32 pm

cayars wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:17 pm
Was what you added Koji or koji-kin (used in making Sake) by any chance?
Sound rather similar to making sake (converting grain to sugar as it ferments).

Looking forward to hearing your results and process on bigger batches.
No this is a different yeast No need to cook and inoculate the grains I also have used koji and yeast balls previously.
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You can lead a horse to drink, but you cant make it water!
You can lead a horticulture but can you teach a prototype?

Proverbs 31:6-7

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by cayars » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:48 pm

Yep, sure wasn't what I thought you might be using. This is a "foreign" to me.

https://en.angelyeast.com/blog/distille ... arter.html
https://en.angelyeast.com/blog/distille ... aijiu.html
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:13 pm

Thanks for the heads up, Ted. I just ordered some.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:40 pm

It arrived today, so the adventure begins. :D

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by JamesH » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:19 am


Evan also uses Angel on an FFV run, I’ll be trying this when I get time.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by StillerBoy » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:17 pm

Chris.. as there they different yeast available, which one did you order.. and have tried it yet..

Teddy.. did you scale up the recipe with rice, and if so, what was the results..

James.. the video in not relevance to the thread..

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:13 pm

The one Teddy is talking about.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:01 pm

My translation of the instructions for Angel, Starter of Liquor-making:

For 100kg of grain.
The finer the grind, the sooner it finishes.
Mix 100kg with 250-300kg of hot water.
Let cool naturally to about 90°F(32℃), agitating to prevent settling.
Directly add 0.5-0.8kg of the starter. Agitate.
Control the temperature to be 82-97°F (28-36℃), optimal fermentation temperature about 90°F(32℃).
Lower limit 79°F(26℃), upper limit 100°F(38℃).
Agitate twice every day in the first three days.
Ferment for 8-15 days.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by StillerBoy » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:12 pm

Yeah.. thanks Chris.. I will probably ordered some just to give it a try.. I like neutral made from rice, so that the motivator for ordering.. not mashing is the other motivator, rice is bitch to cook, even with enzymes

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:04 pm


Ok just another ferment you think but no!
Here is what I did
3.9 kg cracked maize/ corn
600g kibbled rye
500g crushed barley - plain not malted
into 20 litres room temp water (tap but filtered) in one of my conical filters, water topped to the 25l total mark.

Added 40g Angel Yeast (the yellow) label style. (as shown further up this post)

It kicked off within a couple of hours.
So this is not cooked, mashed or had any other ingredients added just raw grains and water with that yeast with the enzymes built it.
Having seen it kick off its off to do some more to give a decent amount to process.
You can lead a horse to drink, but you cant make it water!
You can lead a horticulture but can you teach a prototype?

Proverbs 31:6-7

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:56 pm

I'm curious to hear the efficiency of this yeast. If it's even a reasonable efficiency, it will change my whole process forever. Gelatinizing and mashing is the biggest PITA part of distilling for me.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by cayars » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:50 pm

Teddysad wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:04 pm
Got an update?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:30 pm

Still experimenting but all is looking good. Current additions to test beds are all wheat, all barley and 2 corns (one of which I cooked for an hour at 88C as an A/B check). All are fermenting very nicely. I want to give them a couple of weeks each before the next stage to check output.

Will post as things progress.

Putting down a white rice test tomorrow

5kg corn and cold water (ignore the ball bouncing)
Last edited by Teddysad on Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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You can lead a horticulture but can you teach a prototype?

Proverbs 31:6-7

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:35 pm

Have you tried a starch test on any of them?

I haven't put one down yet. Maybe this weekend....

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:30 pm

Starch tests this afternoon
!st fermenter with corn barley and rye has cleared up nicely a few spent grains floating but clear liquid. Starch test - zero
2nd with straight barley (later made) still bubbling no cap still opaque and no starch reaction
3rd with wheat same as barley
Cooked corn still active and opaque and a mild starch result - only a couple of days
Uncooked corn still active and opaque (but less so) and mild starch reaction.
Have just done a small 5litre test with 1kg plain white flour. This as expected showed a very strong starch indication
You can lead a horse to drink, but you cant make it water!
You can lead a horticulture but can you teach a prototype?

Proverbs 31:6-7

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:55 pm

Starch tests this afternoon
!st fermenter with corn barley and rye has cleared up nicely a few spent grains floating but clear liquid. Starch test - zero
3grain complete.JPG
2nd with straight barley (later made) still bubbling no cap still opaque and no starch reaction
3rd with wheat same as barley
Cooked corn still active and opaque and a mild starch result - only a couple of days
Uncooked corn still active and opaque (but less so) and mild starch reaction.


Have just done a small 5litre test with 1kg plain white flour. This as expected showed a very strong starch indication
You can lead a horse to drink, but you cant make it water!
You can lead a horticulture but can you teach a prototype?

Proverbs 31:6-7

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:03 pm

Certainly looks like a happy ferment.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:09 am

Teddysad wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:31 pm
I used a (Chinese ) Angel Yeast (for liquor making) which comes with included enzymes
:thumbup: It's a good stuff for things like corn (including 100%-corn). But I always cook it, nevertheless, prior to fermentation. In that way, it's done on a sour mash in a week (or a bit less) and not much fusels detected.

Once upon a time I'll try to ferment the mash like "sorghum + rice" (imo, that's exactly what it was created for).

One of my Angel-based efforts, described here... 8)

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by cayars » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:24 am

Teddysad, I wonder how this would work out for a continuous fermentation?

Basically scoop out and run 1/3 of the finished ferment and then top it off and let it ferment again, rinse and repeat. Having a couple of 40 to 50 gallon ferments going like this would save a lot on yeast costs and would make fermenting super easy! You could switch back and forth taking ferment from each tun.

How long does a normal ferment take to complete? Typically with a normal continuous fermentation if you pull 1/3 and top off it only takes 1/3 the time to finish. So wondering if this would apply here as well?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:38 am

I just ordered 2 500g packs from China. Hopefully they get here!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:52 pm

cayars wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:24 am
Teddysad, I wonder how this would work out for a continuous fermentation?

Basically scoop out and run 1/3 of the finished ferment and then top it off and let it ferment again, rinse and repeat. Having a couple of 40 to 50 gallon ferments going like this would save a lot on yeast costs and would make fermenting super easy! You could switch back and forth taking ferment from each tun.

How long does a normal ferment take to complete? Typically with a normal continuous fermentation if you pull 1/3 and top off it only takes 1/3 the time to finish. So wondering if this would apply here as well?
The thought has crossed my weird and always enquiring mind. I want to finish this trial first and taste the product. My ferments though numerous are mostly 30 and 60l. I am more into experimenting than big volume production
You can lead a horse to drink, but you cant make it water!
You can lead a horticulture but can you teach a prototype?

Proverbs 31:6-7

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:50 am

Beerswimmer wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:56 pm
I'm curious to hear the efficiency of this yeast. If it's even a reasonable efficiency, it will change my whole process forever. Gelatinizing and mashing is the biggest PITA part of distilling for me.
By the way, I was told the best "cold" result it makes on flour.

And They say Angel + flour make no bottom burn...

Achtung :: did not check the last sentence!

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Corsaire » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:18 pm

cayars wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:24 am
Teddysad, I wonder how this would work out for a continuous fermentation?
Wouldn't this deplete enzymes? I know yeast reproduces, but do enzymes?
So if you skim off a third, don't you lose a third of the enzymes?

Have to admit I know nothing about this.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:23 am

Exactly my first thought Corsaire

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by cayars » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:27 am

Great question Corsaire. That why I wonder if this could work doing a continuous fermentation.
This is such "foreign" stuff we don't seem to know much about it. It's kind of like medieval magic :)

I neat experiment would be to scoop some out when done fermenting, cold chill it to separate as much of the liquid from the trub, then re-use this trub with fresh grains to see if there is enough enzymes left in the trub to do their magic all over again. This way if it doesn't work, it doesn't ruin the existing batch.

I wish there was more information about this product (in English) :)
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:30 pm

I have a bourbon mash just gone dry (hit 1.000).
I plan to rack off the liquid and then wash the trub to try and extract some yeast from the grain and test its viability on new grain.

In the maentime I just received a kg of the yeast to continue my experiments along with a 25kg bag of long grain rice

Will be s short delay while I run another batch of TFFV (the gardeners favourite) gotta keep her happy!
You can lead a horse to drink, but you cant make it water!
You can lead a horticulture but can you teach a prototype?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by cayars » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:56 pm

Sounds great.

Looking forward to hear if the trub will be viable to reuse.

BTW, how long did the bourbon mash take to ferment?
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