No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
MartinCash
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:15 pm
Location: Southern end of the land Down Under

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:54 pm

Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:55 am
I'm doing some testing with wheat flour that I have had in the house for too long. Without cooking I didn't like it very much.
Hey Demy, have you tried it with fresh grains?

Using stale flour is bound to not give you great results regardless of how you treat it. Shit in = shit out and all that.
4'' SS modular CCVM on gas-fired 50L keg.

User avatar
Demy
Distiller
Posts: 1041
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Demy » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:48 am

MartinCash wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:54 pm
Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:55 am
I'm doing some testing with wheat flour that I have had in the house for too long. Without cooking I didn't like it very much.
Hey Demy, have you tried it with fresh grains?

Using stale flour is bound to not give you great results regardless of how you treat it. Shit in = shit out and all that.
It wasn't a "bad" flour, it had been bought for some time but it was edible. In this post I have done other experiments https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 39&t=80521

Beerswimmer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: In the garage

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:48 am

rubberduck71 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:04 pm

Also, we're coming up on that 6 month mark for Beerswimmer's batch! Please let us know!!!
Thanks for the reminder, I'll check it Thursday night :thumbup:
Ut Alii Vivant!!!!

User avatar
DSmith78
Swill Maker
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:33 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by DSmith78 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:03 am

Well look what turned up yesterday....

IMG_20201007_074753_copy_600x800.jpg
There are three types of people in this world - those who can do maths and those who cannot.

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:25 am

I just put down a 50ish litre wash for the Angel yeasties to eat.

11.4kg total

7kg corn
2kg wheat
.7kg triticale
.7kg oat.
.5kg barley
.5kg Gambrinus honey malt

I had to use a blender so it’s between talcum powder and polenta (bit of both).

I poured a 25lt boiler of 90c+ water on and left it for 30mins or so before adding the rest of the water at room temp. I’ll pitch after I post this.

Well...wish me luck, this is the very first grain anything I’ve done.

Beerswimmer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: In the garage

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:28 pm

Beerswimmer wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:48 am
rubberduck71 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:04 pm

Also, we're coming up on that 6 month mark for Beerswimmer's batch! Please let us know!!!
Thanks for the reminder, I'll check it Thursday night :thumbup:
So, the Angel yeast was great. It worked well, didn't impart anything good or bad just let the other ingredients shine. Worth every penny! The problem was my barrel, an ex maple syrup barrel. It's so sweet it's cloying, and completely covers up almost everything with sticky syrup. I didn't want to finish my 1oz sample it was so sweet :thumbdown:
Ut Alii Vivant!!!!

Bryan1
Swill Maker
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:55 am
Location: South Oz in the hills

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Bryan1 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:49 pm

Well just got on ali express and bought 2 off 500gram blocks so bery soon the fun can begin

Edit just check and it's waiting shipment with 8 days and 23 hours ticking away

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:10 am

Clamsmasha wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:25 am
I just put down a 50ish litre wash for the Angel yeasties to eat.

11.4kg total

7kg corn
2kg wheat
.7kg triticale
.7kg oat.
.5kg barley
.5kg Gambrinus honey malt

I had to use a blender so it’s between talcum powder and polenta (bit of both).

I poured a 25lt boiler of 90c+ water on and left it for 30mins or so before adding the rest of the water at room temp. I’ll pitch after I post this.

Well...wish me luck, this is the very first grain anything I’ve done.
This ferment has been going nicely. I’ve got heater belts on it set to 30c, and I’ve been stirring it 3 or 4 times a day.

I unplugged the belts today torun the still on a different wash and when I checked it looked to have stalled. I threw in a handful of bicarbonate and put a sock full of shells in. She’s happy again.

Moved onto the next Angel project today too. I roasted 9kg of gristed corn (basically cracked corn not very fine). It’s a few shades darker after baking with a few very dark grains and smells powerfully like popcorn. I added another 3kg unroasted to give 12kg total in a 50ish litre ferment. 100 grams of stuff pitched at 40c and she’s off to the races...smells like suuuper popcorn.

User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:23 am

Clamsmasha wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:10 am
I threw in a handful of bicarbonate and put a sock full of shells in. She’s happy again.
Are you sure it had stopped ? None of my experiments with this yeast have stalled as yet and Ive not done anything in the way of PH adjustment. The one thing that did slow one of my early ferments was lack of heat......recommended is 32c
Seems more than coincidence to me that it stopped on the same day that you removed the heat belt.
So far my ferments have made plenty of heat to keep them selves warm for the first few days....after that they appreciate some help in cooler weather.

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:30 am

You might be right Bill, I did stir up the trapped gases just beforehand too.. Though the resumption of obvious fermentation happened straight after the bicarb addition.

Here's the corn doing it's thing. Snap, crackle, pop!


Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:33 am

Should have mentioned, I'm over west and it has been probably 26plus in my shed for the last coupe of days.

User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:29 am

Sure does look to be fermenting again.

User avatar
MartinCash
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:15 pm
Location: Southern end of the land Down Under

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:16 pm

I've just stripped my 3rd run with this yeast, and I did have a pH crash and near-stall. I have been recycling backset (20%), and the pH of my 3rd gen dropped to 3.5. Fermentation of my first two gens was extremely vigorous in the first 36 hours, then slowing down, and I've been pretty much done by day 5 at 32 degrees C. The third gen never took off aggresively, and I had to use calcium hydroxide to adjust pH to a normal range (4.5). It still managed to complete fermentation in about 6 days.

For the 4th generation I decided to go without backset. It took off straight away with a bang and seemed to be wanting to push the water out of the airlock within the first 4 hours. I quite like the character of the yeast in the low wines. I'll do the spirit run on the first 4 gens soon, I'm looking forward to seeing how it comes out.

In any case, my washes seemed to behave a little like a sugarhead in terms of pH, so probably not the same buffering capacity as a mashed beer, especially using rain water as I do. Also similarly to sugarheads, I get no foaming or puking even with an almost full boiler. I've had my 50L boiler as full as 42L and not made much attempt to slow down as the fores start to drip out. So far no puke, so I'm guessing the lack of mash also does not put a lot of the gums and proteins into solution.
4'' SS modular CCVM on gas-fired 50L keg.

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:58 pm

My bourbon style wash is close to done. Is somewhat sour. Can’t wait to run it.

The corn is going nicely, but due to the coarseness of the crack I think it’ll take a while...only been 4 days though.

Last night I blended 12kg of triticale to flour, sat at 56-62c for 45 mins and then watered down to 55lt and pitched the Angel. It went off like a bomb. This might be a quick one and it smells so good. I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that this trit (unmalted) converted itself during the rest. It was sweet enough to eat by the spoonful....I’ll have to investigate further.

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:59 pm

I confess I’ve been worried about the coarse cracked corn not yielding well but it is softening right up and can be turned to paste with light pressure between the fingers. The Rhizopus (from my yeast ball experiments) seems to step up and shred the grains a bit later in the ferment...

The 100% triticale (almost flour) is going good and is the nicest smelling wash I’ve ever smelled.

I just put a 100% unmalted barley down. Steam rolled, i didn’t mill at all but I’m fairly confident with a slightly longer ferment it should yield ok. I’m giving it a long mash at 58c ish even though it’s steamed just to make sure its gelatinised.

This single grain stuff is me filling 6 10lt demis for a spirit “library” and blending purposes.

Cheers!

User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:16 pm

Clamsmasha wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:59 pm
This single grain stuff is me filling 6 10lt demis for a spirit “library” and blending purposes.
Good idea :thumbup:

User avatar
NZChris
Master Distiller
Posts: 9085
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:07 pm

Clamsmasha wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:59 pm
I confess I’ve been worried about the coarse cracked corn not yielding well but it is softening right up and can be turned to paste with light pressure between the fingers.
The instructions do say that the finer the grind is, the better the yield.

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:18 pm

That makes sense, I guess I'm trying to walk a line between yield and arsepain in the racking/stripping.

What are your thoughts on the whole grains of rolled barley? Looks like the grains have largely swollen up and split the husks ..also very soft and gelatinous.

User avatar
NZChris
Master Distiller
Posts: 9085
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:49 pm

I'd gamble on it if I could get some.

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:18 am

Clamsmasha wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:25 am
I just put down a 50ish litre wash for the Angel yeasties to eat.

11.4kg total

7kg corn
2kg wheat
.7kg triticale
.7kg oat.
.5kg barley
.5kg Gambrinus honey malt

I had to use a blender so it’s between talcum powder and polenta (bit of both).

I poured a 25lt boiler of 90c+ water on and left it for 30mins or so before adding the rest of the water at room temp. I’ll pitch after I post this.

Well...wish me luck, this is the very first grain anything I’ve done.
I stripped this last night, 3/4 through the spirit run right now. Not a big yield, about 5% and a 60lt wash fitted perfectly in a 50lt keg once I’d painstakingly racked and squeezed every fcking grain by hand.

I blame the corn for the skimpy abv, although I blended everything the corn come out a bit coarser and at least some of it was in showroom condition at the bottom of the bin. Never mind, always next time. And I think I will cook any corn in future.

The good news is it is really delicious and I don’t think it will outlive white dog consumption. The Gambrinus is very strong considering how little I used....nice segue from the rum stock I just demolished.

Happy!

Cheers!

User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Trainee
Posts: 906
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:46 pm

Well, I got a question to PM:
I was wondering, how much (little) the amount of Angel alcohol yeast you would use when doing a corn wash such as the ujssm? I saw in one of your posts that you achieve good results which such a small amount.
If I wanted to do a 18 litre 3kg corn, 3kg sugar, . How much of that angel alcohol yeast would be sufficient?
Would like to copy-paste my reply as below:
The matter is I do it always “wrong” :) I mean, I cook my grains before starting the fermentation. In that way, the starches are getting gelatinized and the whole ferment process is done in 4 to 8 days (depending on the mash). No incidental infection, less congeners and so on.

So, let’s start with the easiest case: allgrain / no sugar. Let it be maize (corn). It’s worth to put 0.2-0.6% of all our grain fermentables.

Let it be 0.4%. Per 1 kg of corn is like that:
1000g * 0.4% = 4g only
[and I never got less than 300ml of dehydrated spirits from each corn kilo in that way]
So if I cooked (and chilled) 5kg of corn then 20g of Angel is quite enough. But if your package is expired or you don’t wanna cook your grains/grist then you have to put 30g or even 40g per 5 kilos of your fermentables.

It’s worth to remember that Angel consists of 3 main parts: yeast, preparation of Rhizopus, enzymes. The yeast cells are able (sooner or later) to enlarge their own quantity to required. But other components are remaining “ungrown”.

So, in your UJSSM-modified case you have only 3kg of corn (and you don’t cook it). Take just 15-20g = it’s more than enough.
No need to calculate like that: 6000g * 0.6% = 36g: it’s the double doze!

I made 4 or 5 generations of this “UJSSM-advanced style”, too. The yield was OK + strong corn flavor… but the sugar is so sugar: its fusels smell bad and it’s no go for classics still: it’s good for the column only (packed and cooled down from its top).
Maybe, it helps to anyone here and,,, any comments / suggestions?
:)
the one i'm working with
the one i'm working with
Last edited by VLAGAVULVIN on Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


Watching your run is making me lazy (c) James LaBrie

Clamsmasha
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:39 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:54 pm

Hey Vlagavulin,

Thanks for that. Yes the yeast does it’s thing and the included enzymes don’t multiply, but I was under the impression that the rhizopus shits enzymes as it does it’s evil also. Just that they are not being shat at the most opportune time as far as not being at mashing temp and PH.

That’s the deal with the rice yeast balls...no enzyme afaik, but the Rhizopus takes care of business.

User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Trainee
Posts: 906
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:11 am

What I would do with that "modified" UJSSM... is :: 4kg corn + 1.5-2kg sugar per 18-20L wash total (including the cooking water). And 24g of "angels" is even more than enuff. I would probably add sugar syrup the next day only. Or could split its adding in 2 days or... nevermind, lol

Oh, noes: I would not add sugar at all 8)
Just 4kg of corn + 2kg of some other grist(s).
Clamsmasha wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:54 pm
That’s the deal with the rice yeast balls...no enzyme afaik, but the Rhizopus takes care of business.
Yupp, had some reading about the rice wine the other day on the forum...

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


Watching your run is making me lazy (c) James LaBrie

SGB
Swill Maker
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:21 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:38 am

I sounds as though that angle yeast is a more modified and refined version of the rice yeast balls you get down at the local market. I do know that by adding that angel to rice ( after adding water the week after the yeast balls used to make the rice starter) makes it boil for days on end whereas the by using only the yeast balls just give it that slow and steady burn.

Really trying to get to know this angel alcohol yeast so as not to over pitch it.
I know the old ladies use only one yeast ball per kilo rice. And I'll use 2-3

SGB
Swill Maker
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:21 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:48 am

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:11 am
What I would do with that "modified" UJSSM... is :: 4kg corn + 1.5-2kg sugar per 18-20L wash total (including the cooking water). And 24g of "angels" is even more than enuff. I would probably add sugar syrup the next day only. Or could split its adding in 2 days or... nevermind, lol

Oh, noes: I would not add sugar at all 8)
Just 4kg of corn + 2kg of some other grist(s).
Clamsmasha wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:54 pm
That’s the deal with the rice yeast balls...no enzyme afaik, but the Rhizopus takes care of business.
Yupp, had some reading about the rice wine the other day on the forum...
I will try this
4kg of this cracked corn meal I have boil it for 20min and soak it overnight in the hot water, the corn gets soft like grits, I actually made tortillas with it last week, then add the rest of the water activate and pitch the yeast and not use any sugar and see what comes of it

User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Trainee
Posts: 906
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:18 am

May I wish you good luck then?..
SGB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:48 am
and see what comes of it
... depends on what you want of it. :) How will you run? I mean, the 2nd run principles + type of your still...

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


Watching your run is making me lazy (c) James LaBrie

SGB
Swill Maker
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:21 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:34 pm

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:18 am
May I wish you good luck then?..
SGB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:48 am
and see what comes of it
... depends on what you want of it. :) How will you run? I mean, the 2nd run principles + type of your still...
I just curious, to see what will happen without using sugar as you said there is a taste difference, I use a lot of different Angel yeast products for baking and there is a bread improver that contains enzymes A amylase that perhaps might help convert the corn sugars.
I have a full feed sack of cracked corn meal so just want to experiment with it and see what happens .
My still is a low tech 30litre pot still and everything must be done with stripping runs and spirit runs sometimes multiple times

SGB
Swill Maker
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:21 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:50 pm

IMG_20201028_093749.jpg
This is the different Angel products I use. I've had good luck with the sugar tolerant bakers yeast, the liquor starter I've only used a couple times but it really gets things boiling. I've used the bread improver with bananas before and made a fairly flavorful brandy /rum. I also used it with rice before but didn't see any difference in yield compared to using yeastballs and no sugar. I fairly certain the liquor starter would do the same with rice I just haven't done it yet without also using the yeast balls with it. But I will try it soon. Steam the rice, let it cool, sprinkle some of the yeast in it, put it in a container without water for a week, then add water and let it go

User avatar
VLAGAVULVIN
Trainee
Posts: 906
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Western Urals

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:56 am

SGB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:34 pm
I just curious, to see what will happen without using sugar as you said there is a taste difference
So, you are to use something like a steam cooker and a coil, right? The most popular of the "rustic" artisan classics available in the XXI century. But... why not?

As I wrote, the white sugar gives more ugly fusels than any cereal thing. If we remove sugary stench then it is worth to take care about the rest ones... Because the fusels will transfer to your product all run long as you don't have anything like reflux/boka still. But wanna get yummies, not funkies :D

You have a hot and wet climate there, don't you? It tends to get more fusels and more chances to get infection during the fermentation, imo. What do we do to get less fusels in the circumstances? We may make corn-to-water ratio as 1:4 and not 1:3, i.e. the thinner = the better. How can we do our best to avoid infection? We can dissolve our Angel stuff in a half-glass of lukewarm water and to stir it well (I mean, really well) with our chilled corn mass. In that way, the concentration of enzymes gets rather high to start the saccharification of starches immediately that would help the yeast to take over the mash. Let the mash be thick for 1 more hour. Then add the main portion of warm-ish water. And stir it vigorously one more time. And let it be as thin as 1:4 since then. And run it on the 4th day the latest, anyways...

I could go on with my intrusive advices if you wish ;)

SGB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:50 pm
This is the different Angel products I use.
And that's my small collection FYI...
they are waiting for their share
they are waiting for their share

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


Watching your run is making me lazy (c) James LaBrie

SGB
Swill Maker
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:21 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:10 pm

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:56 am
SGB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:34 pm



As I wrote, the white sugar gives more ugly fusels than any cereal thing. If we remove sugary stench then it is worth to take care about the rest ones... Because the fusels will transfer to your product all run long as you don't have anything like reflux/boka still. But wanna get yummies, not funkies :D


I could go on with my intrusive advices if you wish ;)

SGB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:50 pm
This is the different Angel products I use.
And that's my small collection FYI...
IMG_8702 (1).jpg

Thank you for your feedback,

Interesting......
Must be why, when I've made Baiju, without adding sugar, it's way more smooth and flavorful. Also the ratio of water to rice is 1-4 . Just the water is not added until about 4-5 days to a week later , by that time there is roughly a litre of wine per kilo is already forming in the bottom and it's sweet. Where all that liquid magically comes from, I don't know,
I know this is a no mash thread, however, pre-soaking and cooking /steaming is needed.
I can try to do the corn the same way as the rice , probably won't yield very much though compared to tried and true more experienced distillers mashes.
No harm in experimenting though. And at 1-4 ratio I can do 4kilos of corn and compare it to 4kilos rice on the yield. I'm sure corn has more natural sugars innit than rice . I have haven't heard of high fructose rice syrup.
As for your Angel collection...
Well the Angel certainly didn't fall far from the belt silk road now did she! That's a far and reaching path the Shanghai way.

Post Reply