No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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VLAGAVULVIN
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm

SGB wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:10 pm
Where all that liquid magically comes from, I don't know,
Starch + enzymes ==> maltose + dextrins. Through the stage of complexation and liquefaction.

The grain is full of water in a bound state. Maybe, hydrates ... hydrogen bonds are getting "untied"... dunno, too :)

SGB wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:10 pm
Well the Angel certainly didn't fall far from the belt silk road now did she!
They have the huge research and manufacturing facilities in the area of Lipetsk, RU. Some day soon they will just buy that silk road. Including the countries it comes through.

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Hawk_jester » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:47 am

Any updates?
Was the trub spiltting viable? Did Enzymes reproduce?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:18 pm

Hawk_jester wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:47 am
Did Enzymes reproduce?
Sorta kiddin?..

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Hawk_jester » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:07 am

Very new***

I thought I read somewhere that question was asked....

I’m curious if enzymes did reproduce. I assume by your response this Shows me as a noob.

Any follow up to this post?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by jonnys_spirit » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:34 am

Rhizopus oryzae is a mold spore so it can be cultivated or propagated to a certain extent like other Koji cultures. I purchased a dedicated bread proofer (smallish box sized apparatus for the pantry about the size of a baking tray that maintains static temp and humidity environment) to experiment with cultivating various Koji's but I haven't moved forward with this project yet lol...

https://tempebumbung.wordpress.com/2020 ... ty-tempeh/
2. Rhizopus oryzae
Apart from Rhizopus oligosporus, there is another genus of Rhizopus sp that is used for the tempeh fermentation process, Rhizopus oryzae. If you use Rhizopus oligosporus to make tempeh, this fungus will grow well in the pH range of 3.4-6. Rhizopus oryzae can produce lactic acid and is safe for consumption because it does not produce toxic. Rhizopus oryzae can produce proteases and can break down complex fats into triglycerides and amino acids.
https://www.fermentationculture.eu/what-koji-needs/
What Koji needs
Pretty much every instruction says that Koji needs temperatures between roughly 28°C and 36°C (and they are right, of course). If the temperature is around 40°C the fungus starts producing spores earlier, which is not wanted almost all of the time). If the temperature is even higher the fungus will die.

Koji will produce more amylases at higher temperatures, and more proteases at lower temperature. So, depending on whether you make sake or miso you can adjust. For the beginning don’t worry about it so long as you are within 28°C and 36°C.

Koji also needs a high relative humidity. In the beginning, the first 24h, 90% are desirable. It’s no catastrophe if it’s 80%, or even 70%, but it certainly works better at 90%.

Some people say that after 24h it is better to lower humidity again, so that the fungus has to burrow deep into the grain in order to find water. If the air is always very humid the fungus can just happily grow on the outside without actually growing much into the kernel. I think there’s truth to that, but I am undecided on how much this is going to affect the amount of enzymes that are produced, which is the whole point. This is an experiment waiting to happen. :)
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:52 am

I ran my triticale wash a couple of days ago. Got about 5% abv and it’s one of the cleanest things I’ve made so far. During the strip it seemed there was very little in the way of heads. It yielded a very mild and delicious wine, so I have high hopes for the spirit.

Onto the next one. I wanted to try really making sure of gelatinisation, and to pull more yield from the wash.

8kg corn
8kg triticale, both milled fine.

I put the corn in a big pot, filled with boiling water and put in the oven for 3hours. That worked great because no stirring. I’ll do that again for sure.

Total mashbill was put into insulated 60lt bin With hot water to sit at around 80c. @71 I added enzymes and stirred with a power drill.

I left the mash for 24h and uncovered to get down to 40c pitching 100g Angel. I soon realised it was too thick for one bin as it started to surge.. I split in 2 and added 10lts to each making 2 40lt washes. SG 1.06.

My thinking is, get the sugar up front with the enzymes and proper mash, clean up the stragglers with the Rhizopus.

Cheers!

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:15 am

Forgive my noob-ness, but I thought the whole point of this special yeast was to avoid the whole boiling, cooling, malting, cooling again process?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am

I’m a noob too, especially with grain so I’m just covering all the bases at the moment.
I have unmashed, mashed but unconverted and converted washes on the go. At he very least the angel offers insurance for someone learning the ropes with grain.

So far it’s at least competitive and has made a coupe of very tasty whiskeys for me...unfortunately it’s a bit hard to get hold of...I’ve gotten one of three ive ordered so I’m going to have to get proficient at conventional mashing too.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by DSmith78 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:43 am

Finally got around to experimenting with this stuff Sunday evening. Cooked 8kg of sushi rice, waited for it to cool and massaged in a good helping of this mystical powder. No water added at this point. The very next morning the airlock was going nuts! Last night I added 10l of water and this morning - still chugging along like the healthiest of ferments! What kind of black sorcery is this? Consequently I'm having my small fermenter exorcised this weekend.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:34 pm

Any reason why you didn't just add all the water upfront?

Also, cooking is unnecessary... BTW it's white sorcery if you were using rice, unless it was black rice...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by DSmith78 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:02 am

MartinCash wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:34 pm
Any reason why you didn't just add all the water upfront?

Also, cooking is unnecessary... BTW it's white sorcery if you were using rice, unless it was black rice...
Well I'm aiming for a sake replica or Chinese rice wine so letting it ferment 'dry' gives the rhizopus chance to grow through the rice, similar to koji cultivating. For this reason cooking is absolutely necessary. I can't believe it was fermenting like a train with no water! Outrageous.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:14 pm

So since this stuff converts starch without the usual required boil, corn meal (vs cracked corn) would be a viable base for the corn component of a recipe, correct?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:19 pm

Cornmeal would be great, IMO. I have been using cracked corn from the feed store and grinding it more finely myself.

Also a boiling water or backset steep will help with yield by pre-gelatinising some of the grain, which helps conversion.

I wasn't aware that this yeast had live Rhizopus, I thought it was mostly refined enzymes.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:46 pm

The corn will be great, both in case of ujssm or allgrain, as well as in case of cooking it or just soaking in warm-ish water. But if cooked it's done in 3-4 days, if not — "the cows will come" 20 times at least.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by DSmith78 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:05 am

MartinCash wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:19 pm
Cornmeal would be great, IMO. I have been using cracked corn from the feed store and grinding it more finely myself.

Also a boiling water or backset steep will help with yield by pre-gelatinising some of the grain, which helps conversion.

I wasn't aware that this yeast had live Rhizopus, I thought it was mostly refined enzymes.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:16 am

OK, finally took the plunge on this stuff:

Heated up 5 gal of water to 120F
Added teaspoon of citric acid to lower pH
3 teaspoons of gypsum
Couldn't find any epsom salt, so skipped it
Added 11 kg/25 lbs Kokuho Rose (sushi rice easily found at Costco) into the 6 gallon fermenter
30g (~5 teaspoons) of Angel Yeast
pH came out at 6.01, but I expect this to drop as the sugars get converted
SG is unknown since the starch hasn't been converted yet...
Stirred with drill mixer & paddle as best I could over the next few hours (while running a batch of SCD's CROW Bourbon)
NO sugar added - I wanted to get solely rice-based starches converted to sugar!

Next morning, this stuff was bubbling away (!?!?!) just ike an all-bran active ferment. I popped the top & stirred it again since I knew there was quite a bit of the rice hanging in bottom of fermenter with unknown "access" to the enzyme/yeast solution at the top of the container.

I will provide continual feedback as it progresses. Smells delightful so far! Hopefully no infections as I'd like to sample some of this as a wine before experimenting with some distillation.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:04 am

I have done a
40kg cracked corn
6.6kg barley
3.4kg rye
Added 60ltr hot water 60’c let it soak for a couple of hours added another 110ltr cold water got the mash down to 32’
Pitched the Angel liquor yeast 250gm
Had a wee overflow on the grains overnight.
Stirred twice a day for 3 days, drill and paint stirrer, sealed it up for 9 days gravity 1.18, closed it up and just waiting now.
It looks stalled, no obvious bubbles, just a bit of movement.
Grains have all sunk now.
Has anyone had a stalled mash on this.
Tastes sour, no off smells
Cheers
John

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:51 am

Mine have all finished between 0.996 & 1.000.

What temperature is it at?

Did the 60C water gelatinize the corn?

Have you done a starch test?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:15 pm

No just softened the corn a bit, did the iodine starch test, came up yellow, just wierd there’s no obvious bubbles, but then again the stainless drum is not airtight enough for an airlock

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:51 pm

What’s the pH?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:18 pm

Dunno broke my ph tester, just gotta find my soldering iron or get another next trip to town,

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:25 pm

Strips are near enough for most washes, plus they don't fail to work when you really need them. I only use a pH meter for rum.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:52 pm

Well that was a fail, corroded battery terminals, off to town in the morning, busy putting a TFFV through the stripping run today, always a nice day distilling 👍

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:52 pm

I will give the spa ones a go

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:02 pm

PH 6.4

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:42 pm

Guys, skip all those citric acids, gypsy gypsums, epsy epsoms, pH meters and other religious rituals... That's the koji: thing-in-itself. So, let them work. Don't stay on the koji's way and don't sh!t into your own head thinking it helps...

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:49 pm

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:42 pm
Guys, skip all those citric acids, gypsy gypsums, epsy epsoms, pH meters and other religious rituals... That's the koji: thing-in-itself. So, let them work. Don't stay on the koji's way and don't sh!t into your own head thinking it helps...
It looks like your theory hasn't worked for John.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:57 pm

Let him run and let us see... ;)

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:11 pm

The bag does say 8-15 days and it hasn't been 15 days yet.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:45 pm

Lol, I will just keep monitoring the gravity for now, maybe add some ph reducer as it seems a tad high, after day 15

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