No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:57 pm

Why not just look at the ferment......if its not moving and has no cap its not working from my experience of this yeast.
Give it a good stir and see what it looks like tomorrow maybe.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:14 pm

NZChris wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:11 pm
The bag does say 8-15 days and it hasn't been 15 days yet.
Most of mine have finished in 5-6 days.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:12 pm

NZJohn wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:04 am
Pitched the Angel liquor yeast 250gm
You can guess for a long time. But it's better to add another 50g. And stir it a couple of times.

NZJohn wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:04 am
Has anyone had a stalled mash on this.
My Angel always worked well, even being expired. Something went wrong. Either with enzymes or with yeast component. You can guess for a long time. But first start it anyhow.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:20 pm

NZJohn wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:45 pm
Lol, I will just keep monitoring the gravity for now, maybe add some ph reducer as it seems a tad high, after day 15
At day 15, if it hadn't been moving for a couple of days I'd run it to see what I've got. The boiling point of the wash can be used to calculate the abv, so I hope you have a way to measure that. Messing around with pH sounds like flogging a dead horse.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:08 pm

NZChris wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:20 pm
Messing around with pH sounds like flogging a dead horse
that is about to spread the stench... better add some alive yeast while it's not too late :mrgreen:

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:31 am

I’ve had mixed results so far from mixed methods.

1. Cracked corn, no mash, no soak, no grind. Just hot water to sterilise. Epic fail. Looked really good, went for 3 weeks. In the end smelled awful and produced 600ml from 60lt wash. Angel only

2.Triticale. Ground fine soaked in 56-65c water for 45mins. Was a nice ferment smelled great. Produced 9lts of 35% from a 50lt charge (12kg grain). Very very clean wine, very little heads detected, I’m yet to spirit run it. Angel only

3. 5 grain bourbon. 11 something kg of grain, I soaked it at in 90c water, and let soak for 30. All milled fine but a few nuggets of corn got through. Got about 8lts of 35%. Tasty, not much heads. Not really related but I stopped the strip run just as the foreshots started flowing and started up about 12 maybe 18 hours later. So much diacetyl it was verging on cheesey. Not unpleasant to my taste but pretty full on. Has come out nice with some time and American oak. Angel only

4. 50/50 fine milled feed corn and triticale. 16kg of grain split into 2 40lt washes. This one I soaked the corn in very hot water in a pot then cooked for 3 hours in the oven. Once mixed I rugged it up and left it for 12 hours or so. This is pretty much the first time I’ve seen true gelatinisation and I added enzymes just to practice conventional mashing for the first time. Later added the Angel at the normal temp.
This one is so far the best thing I’ve produced and I felt like I could’ve just cut it from the strip run. I think it’ll be enjoyable.

I’ve got an unmilled steam rolled barley that I soaked for a few hours running. This one smells tits but it’s a slow ferment as I guess it has to wait for each grain to fall apart. Promising though.

I’m not getting the full potential from my grain but I’m working on a better solution for cooking and mashing.

Edit. Every single wash has been heated and kept at ~32c. Every single mash has required PH intervention via bicarbonate on multiple occasions and I’ve stirred with drill compulsively.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by jonnys_spirit » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:29 am

My understanding is that gravity is not necessarily the best indicator in this koji scenario. I've done Sake's a couple times using koji/yeast and it takes a while for the koji to convert the rice to sugars. The yeast converts the sugars to alcohol as the starches are converted to sugars. This is one reason why Sake's can be of exceptionally high ABV and still clean - because the yeast aren't subjected to an overly high initial SG which causes undue osmotic pressure and ruptures yeast cells or significantly degrade their environment. The slower saccharification process (over perhaps weeks) allows the yeast to maintain a fairly low osmotic pressure environment throughout the ferment and produce sake up to 19-20% ABV. I'm not going to say that the high ABV doesn't cause stress but the time required to saccharify the grain does prevent the high SG.

Something to consider and research and add to the knowledge base - time permitting.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by DSmith78 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:10 am

Well I'm using this to make a 'sake' and 9 hours after rubbing the angel yeast into cooked rice the air lock was bubbling well!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:47 am

Clamsmasha, a good report detected :thumbup:

In spite of that epic fail :moresarcasm:

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:55 am

jonnys_spirit wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:29 am
The slower saccharification process (over perhaps weeks) allows the yeast to maintain a fairly low osmotic pressure environment throughout the ferment and produce sake up to 19-20% ABV.
It's interesting. Do you have any special thread about it? Or maybe planning to start it? I'd love to read about...

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by jonnys_spirit » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:41 pm

I don't have a particular thread - just what I've read about making sake. Ferment takes about a month and is typically at a lower temp and the rice additions are made over a period of days as well instead of all at once - from what I gather the conversion of starches to sugars doesn't happen all at once so an initial SG measurement isn't particularly indicative of what the ABV will be once all fermented - in part by staging the rice additions and the extended saccharification period. Fermentation temps are typically closer to a lager style yeast so it takes the yeast longer to complete the ferment as well in any case. I could certainly be mistaken but it's my take that the Koji and yeast work in tandem fermenting the sugars as the grain is converted.

In the cases of corn or other grains (perhaps not yet gelatinized) it may also take a bit more time for the koji to penetrate and complete their contributions.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:51 pm

jonnys_spirit wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:41 pm
I could certainly be mistaken but it's my take that the Koji and yeast work in tandem fermenting the sugars as the grain is converted.
Thats been my take on it to from the begining.
Gravity readings cant tell you much is my thinking.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:58 pm

There are a coupe of excellent threads on Rhizopus and Aspergillus in particular... I'll try to dig them up later if I get a spare moment at work.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:59 pm


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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:24 pm

This is from a corn ferment:
Gelatinized with 85C water.
Pitched at 31C, fermenter put in a 31C incubator.
11 hours, SG 1023, stirred.
20.5 hours, SG 1012, stirred.
36.5 hours, SG 998, stirred. From this point on, the SG never changed, but the refractive index rose at every daily check up to 155hrs (7th day)

If a ferment was stuck at 1.018 after 15 days, I'd guess you're in trouble.
Temperature?
Not gelatinized at the start?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:20 pm

NZChris wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:24 pm
This is from a corn ferment:
Gelatinized with 85C water.
Pitched at 31C, fermenter put in a 31C incubator.
11 hours, SG 1023, stirred.
20.5 hours, SG 1012, stirred.
36.5 hours, SG 998, stirred. From this point on, the SG never changed, but the refractive index rose at every daily check up to 155hrs (7th day)

If a ferment was stuck at 1.018 after 15 days, I'd guess you're in trouble.
Temperature?
Not gelatinized at the start?
What yield do you get per kg of grain?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:36 pm


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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:44 pm

jonnys_spirit wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:41 pm
I could certainly be mistaken but it's my take that the Koji and yeast work in tandem fermenting the sugars as the grain is converted.
I'm mistaken the same way :)

Well, what do you do with your sake after the fermentation is done?
Some Russians work with Angel koji being dressed like that, lol:
hz.jpg
I don't care so, could even try the taste of my corn ferment but...
anyways, it's the ferment, not a ready drinkable stuff, imo.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:18 am

Thanks, looks like I’m yielding okay.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZJohn » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:19 pm

Hi Chris,
Temp was steady through the whole 14 days at 32.4c used a heating blanket and a stc1000, it all was looking good.
Well racked it and sparked it, the grain water temp was only 60’c at the beginning might have to go hotter.
Still ended up with about 170litres of wash.
Will let it settle for a day or 3 then run it with 4 plates.
I only have a temp probe at the top of the boiler and one at the top before the condenser, so I will record the temps and report back.
Smells and tastes like it should, no real sweetness there, but the proof will be in the bottle at the end. 🙏👍

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:16 pm

I put on a wash of whole steamrolled barley (husk on) a couple of weeks back. It’s been slowly working away and I’ve given it bicarbonate interventions a few times.

I ran it last night and it worked quite well. Didn’t measure very closely but a bit lower yielding than the other grains probably due to so much husk. On the upside it was child’s play to strain the husk out for squeezing. My new mop bucket and BIAB bags come today so that’ll get easier again.

I soaked this stuff in hot water only to the the point that the grain swelled up then proceeded as normal. What a great tasting spirit...guess I know why I like single malt so much.

Want to run steam rolled Oats (husk on) today.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:05 pm

Clamsmasha wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:16 pm
What a great tasting spirit...guess I know why I like single malt so much.
Yeah :thumbup:

Of my experience, unmalted barley grits (oven-"fried") + liquid smoke (while cooking grits) + Angel koji = the best combination.

First month it is a bit strange (not ugly, just sorta pine-tree flavored). But my spirit aged for 18+ months... 3D-yummmmm! Maybe better than any of my single malts.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:24 pm

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:05 pm
Clamsmasha wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:16 pm
What a great tasting spirit...guess I know why I like single malt so much.
Yeah :thumbup:

Of my experience, unmalted barley grits (oven-"fried") + liquid smoke (while cooking grits) + Angel koji = the best combination.

First month it is a bit strange (not ugly, just sorta pine-tree flavored). But my spirit aged for 18+ months... 3D-yummmmm! Maybe better than any of my single malts.
Damn, I’ll try and smoke some grain this week!

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:20 pm

Clamsmasha wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:24 pm
Damn, I’ll try and smoke some grain this week!
Damn, click here first :mrgreen:

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Evil Wizard » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:26 pm

I suppose the big question is "Does the Rhizopus (oryzae? oligosporus?) produce GSH enzymes?"

Granular Starch Hydrolysis enzymes seem to be the hidden champion here permitting low temperature gelatinization.

Rhizo. can be sourced from Tempeh Starter culture. I'd like to use it with various yeasts.
Rhizo. Oligo https://raprima.com/raprima-tempeh-starter
Rhizo. Oryzae

Biochemical production of bioalcohols
M. Melikoglu, ... C.S.K. Lin, in Handbook of Biofuels Production (Second Edition), 2016
9.4.2.1 Granular starch hydrolyzing (GSH) enzymes (reducing substrate
inhibition)
Granular starch hydrolyzing (GSH) enzymes have high granular starch hydrolyzing activities and can convert starch into sugars at fermentation temperatures (Robertson et al., 2006). Unlike conventional alpha and glucoamylases, GSH enzymes do not require starch to be in soluble form to be converted into glucose. In other words, the dry grind process using GSH enzymes does not require heating of the corn slurry at high temperatures to break raw starch crystallinity to solubilize starch in water (Wang et al., 2007). Thus GSH enzymes reduce the overall utility requirements of the dry grind process. As a result, when GSH enzymes are used, the liquefaction, saccharification, and fermentation steps can all be combined into one single step, namely simultaneous liquefaction, saccharification, and fermentation (SLSF) (Fig. 9.6). With the GSH enzymes process, ground corn, water, enzymes, and yeast are mixed together for fermentation. The increase in viscosity of the corn slurry that occurs in the conventional process does not happen in the GSH process; consequently, a higher concentration of solids can be used in corn slurries. A higher concentration of solids allows the increased final ethanol concentrations in fermentation. The sugar concentrations (glucose, maltose, maltotriose, and higher sugars) throughout the SSF are low (<2.0% w/v) or negligible (Wang et al., 2007) and yeasts are not subjected to substrate inhibition. GSH enzymes achieve same ethanol concentration and yield as observed with conventional enzymes (Wang et al., 2007).
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by DSmith78 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:04 am

IMG_20201115_092317_copy_600x800.jpg
These are the fruits of my labour for my first 'sake' using this yeast and I am VERY impressed!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Durhommer » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:10 am

20201125_071152.jpg
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:21 am

DSmith78 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:04 am
IMG_20201115_092317_copy_600x800.jpg

These are the fruits of my labour for my first 'sake' using this yeast and I am VERY impressed!
DSmith, how long did your ferment run? I have 11 kg/25 lbs of rice in a 6 gallon fermenter going now for 2 weeks. Stirred a couple times since the rice bed was so thick at the bottom. Bubbling was very vigorous, but is starting to slow (~every 5-8 seconds).
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Honest_Liberty » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:42 pm

So if I malt my corn, and I add 2lbs/gallon.. What can I expect in terms of abv wash. Everyone puts it in terms of % collected of hearts/ml etc.

The no cook bourbon mentioned somewhere above 7% with HT alpha and then gluco, meeting with oh and all that.

I'm trying to determine how this alcohol production compares to corn + enzymes regarding yield. I don't quite grasp the hearts amount collected as benchmark
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:22 pm

If you have a finer crack/grind than I do, you will get a better yield. I suggest you try it, then adjust your method each time until you are happy with your results.

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