No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Clamsmasha
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:30 pm

I’m sure it would work.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:32 pm

The bugger about this stuff is that you can't take an initial gravity reading to confirm what you think you're gonna get ABV-wise from your wash.

It's like pot-luck when you go to run it. "Was it good? I think so..."
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:29 pm

NZChris wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:26 pm
Thanks, Teddy.

Using Jessie's abv results, I deduce that he got his best conversion rate using 85C water.
I am not sure it had the best conversion, but rather best yield. Jesse stated that the cooked batch did not settle as well so he did not rack off as much product to run. I would imagine if he let the cooked batch settle a little bit longer his yield would have been higher.

But I think from a time/effort stand point, using near boiling or at least HOT water to steep the grains is best effort to yield ratio for most.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:37 pm

From today's 18 day old mash:
SG 0.9945. TTB table makes that about 7%.
The boiling point indicated 6%.
Cheap Chinese alcohol refractometer says 14%.
The yield indicates 6% minimum.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:46 pm

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:29 pm
NZChris wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:26 pm
Thanks, Teddy.

Using Jessie's abv results, I deduce that he got his best conversion rate using 85C water.
I am not sure it had the best conversion, but rather best yield. Jesse stated that the cooked batch did not settle as well so he did not rack off as much product to run. I would imagine if he let the cooked batch settle a little bit longer his yield would have been higher.

But I think from a time/effort stand point, using near boiling or at least HOT water to steep the grains is best effort to yield ratio for most.
Each run was shut down at 5% abv at the spout, therefore, the highest abv run would have had the highest starting abv, resulting from the highest conversion rate.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:59 pm

I suspect I made a mistake with my last batch by not cleaning out the still head and condenser before the spirit run. I took a generous foreshot from each strip and they were not particularly nasty.

The first jar off the spirit run smelled and tasted very nice and only didn't make the cut because of the fusels that it had cleaned out of the still and condenser from the last stripping run. I suspect that, if I had properly cleaned the still, the first jar would have been a keeper, it's main flaw being fusels rather than ethyl acetate and its associated heads components.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by silverbean » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:18 am

Clamsmasha wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:47 pm
MartinCash wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:41 pm
On, no, I guess we can expect a run on Angel Yeast... :lol:
Haha yep. Hopefully someone will stockpile and sell out of Aus without gouging.
I found a seller in Brisbane $28.50, had 3 left well 2 now, should arrive any day now.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Honest_Liberty » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:04 am

So, estimates on raw SF...
I'm confused on how folks are calculating yield vs conversion rates.

I'm done with sugar so I only want to use all grain. I can grind and mill SF quite well with my grinder and kitchenaid mill.

Instead of 7lbs of SF and sugar per 5 gallon, I would likely mill 25 lbs for a 12 gallon wash. Heat 14 gallons water to 160°F and pour over two separate home depot 10 gallon coolers, insulate overnight, and then pour into fermenter bucket. Add angels for liquor making that should be arriving in February. I'll place it in my basement furnace room that stays at least 75°F, then after it starts going do it again so I can end up with about 24 gallons.

Any chance I could get around 5-6% yield? It seems I wouldn't be able to verify other than whatever I collect and estimate based on the stripping run.

I would anticipate this would be much more tasty than the sugar head.

Thoughts?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by silverbean » Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:35 am

So my delivery of "Starter for Liquor Making" arrived today and it included an instruction sheet. Sounds like the seller has some experience, I wonder if he is on here?
If anyone is interested I have copied the instructions below. Not sure if I should include the sellers contact so I have left it out.


Instructions for 10kg of grain

Mill grain to size to suit your usual Sparging method, generally smaller is better for maximum conversion.

Mix grain with 25-30L of hot water (Boiling hot is best), keep mixing frequently to prevent sedimentation.

Optional - Hydrate the yeast in 5-10x volume of 35C water (250-500ml for 50g).

As with normal mashing, corn requires more time at higher temperatures, the best results have been obtained by actually boiling the corn and then letting it naturally cool to pitching temperature. Leaving it wrapped in insulation longer will help achieve optimal results. We are currently exploring if a higher dose of yeast will reduce the heating/mashing requirements with corn.

After the temperature has naturally cooled to about 32C (Don't chill it, the rest time lets some of the starch break down), add 50-80g of Angel Yeast, Stir through well.

Mix twice every day in the first three days.

Control the temperature to be in the 28-36C range, the optimal fermentation temperature is around 32c, Max you should let it get to is 38C, If the mash gets below 26C consider adding insulation to your fermenter, it will work at lower temps, but the ranges mentioned are optimal for speed,

8-15 day ferments are normal with shorter and longer times possible due to local water supply, the grain used and so on. SG readings are of no use due to the co-operative way the yeast works with the enzymes over the full time of the ferment. It is finished when there is no activity for 2-3 days, a sour smell is quite normal and won't affect flavor after distillation.

Sparge and Run!

Thank you for ordering this great product from us, we are always looking for feedback for this relatively recent release, please feel free to send any questions, observations or successful recipes to enzymeking@

Save by ordering direct!

1-3 packs $17ea plus Postage - $9 regular, $12 express 4-8 packs $16ea, contact us for shipping, generally $12 regular & $16 express Offer available until 15/01/21, while stocks last.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by silverbean » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:02 am

So yesterday I started my first ferment using the Angle yeast (Starter for Liquor making). The instructions that came with it said to use 10 Kg of grain, pour on 25 - 30 liters of boiling water wrap up and leave until it cools to 30 degrees C then pitch 50 - 80 grams of Angel Yeast.
Well I had some Maize meal that I wanted to try but knew it needed a lot more water than that. I was hoping to fit 6 Kg into my 30 liter fermenter but I started off with 4Kg of Maize (or was it 5) and 20 Liters of boiling water which eventually with the help of the paint mixer ended up a very thick porridge. I couldn't even pour it into the fermenter, so much for adding more corn.
After 5 hours I figured it had plenty of time to gel so stated cooling it down and added the air pump (not in the instructions) Eventually I added another 4 liters of cool water and reached 34 deg (optimal 28 - 36C) and pitched 40 grams of Angel Yeast stirred it in and put the lid on. After an hour the airlock was slowly bubbling, the next morning it was chugging away constantly.
The instructions said to stir twice a day to prevent settling, I missed it the first morning but that afternoon I was rather surprised there was nothing left to settle, still some floating bits. What 24 hours ago was a thick porridge I could barely stir now is a thin soup.
Not sure if my calculations are correct but I am expecting 5 -6%ABV when finished which the instructions said 10 – 15 days but judging by what I’m seeing with the airlock I’m thinking 5 – 7 days. Not sure if it’s the lower grain to water ratio, using more yeast or aerating the mash seems to have sped it up.
I considered adding more maize but think I will wait until next time, see how this finishes out then next time do a step feed. I will see how this settles out when it’s finished, might throw another kilo of maize in if there is enough trub left in the bottom to see if it kicks off again, I haven’t seen anybody try that. Lets see what the next few days bring

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:23 pm

I have tried that (adding more food for the yeast after the first ferment) but with little success. Sure the yeast grows and multiplies during the ferment but the problem is that the enzymes there at the start get used and do not grow and multiply. I also tried a sugar head on the corn with poor results it seems the yeast is not so keen on just sugar to work on . A little extra yeast ( I used the standard bread / bakers yeast from Angel) did the trick.
I now maximise use of the corn by using backset and starting a sour mash ( per UJSSM) adding sugar and DADY
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:39 pm

I think you might get a pretty low yield with such a small amount of grain. I'm using 10-15 kg in 50 L, and it seems thicker is better. No need to boil the corn, if you're happy with a lower yield. My experience was that a soak in hot water or backset to fully hydrate the corn is all it takes.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:31 pm

Same for me, 12-16kg per 60lt ferment gives a 50lt boiler charge.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by silverbean » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:46 pm

MartinCash wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:39 pm
I think you might get a pretty low yield with such a small amount of grain. I'm using 10-15 kg in 50 L, and it seems thicker is better. No need to boil the corn, if you're happy with a lower yield. My experience was that a soak in hot water or backset to fully hydrate the corn is all it takes.
I am not expecting much maybe 4%ABV hoping for 5 or 6%. I was planning on putting in 7 or 8 Kg of the Maize meal but after 4 or was it 5Kg it was so thick, I did add another 4 Liters of cold water before I pitched so I could have squeezed another kilo in. It is what it is and that's a trial batch. I had the Maize meal as it was on sale for $5.00 a 20Kg bag, I'm not sure if the young guy at the feed store made a mistake. The meal soaks up a lot of hot water, I wonder if using colder water I could get more it without it setting like plaster or half a kilo of malted barley in with the hot water.
Meanwhile this afternoon (after 48 hours) the bubbling has slowed and the SG is 0.997, yesterday it was 1.025 then a few hours later 1.015, PH was 4.5 yesterday, I didn't check today but it tasted rather sour so i'm guessing its not far off finishing so I won't have long to find out the result.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:56 pm

I use whatever it says on the bag. Sure, its thick and takes some effort to stir, but you don't have to stir it constantly. I've left all of mine to cool overnight.

I pitch according to the instructions and it always instantly converts into a thin wash and starts fermenting very soon after.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Honest_Liberty » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:08 pm

My angel's arrived way earlier than anticipated, not even a month after ordering.

I have a question but my previous one went unanswered about the SF recipe.

If I decide to go through the malting process on my whole feed corn, (the process isn't that much of a bother to me), do you folks think that using angel's yeast would help on this process to ensure maximum conversion?

Additionally, Instead of buying Sweetfeed (Wet C.O.B.), I would purchase cracked corn, oats, and barley separately. I'd purchase one gallon of Blackstrap and do a combo enzymes no boil then step mash with the oats and barley, then add the angels yeast. Or is that effectively redundant? I'm thinking it may be.

I'm thinking that this would maximize conversion so I can ensure to get all the usable sugars from the grains. Can someone weigh in who has more experience as to whether this process would be worth it?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:15 pm

Sometimes .... you have to be the first.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Clamsmasha » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:49 pm

Yes I’ve done about half of mine as no-boil with the addition of combo amylase.
I’ve also done fully boiled corn with enzymes prior to pitching Angel.

Angel works just fine by itself (effort vs yield vs time) if you can mill fine and gelatinise the starch (which is easy with most grains). I didn’t like the way it went with raw or even partially cooked corn.

I used enzymes with corn as part of an experiment....I was driving steam into the mash to keep it hot for long periods of time but it was unmanageable In large quantities without thinning by enzyme. That worked great.

I see Angel as a backstop for poor conversion while I’m trying to learn all grain, but the times I’ve used it by itself it has produced some gems. Barley has been a standout.

Combining with the normal enzyme process up front works, it seems to up the yield or at least reduce the time required for the ferment.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Honest_Liberty » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:36 am

Thank you for that response.
I have a few runs to finish and then about 15 gallons of fients before I can make another batch.
I suspect I'll start with my home malted corn and half feed grade oats. Probably steep 1lb each per gallon at 155 and add enzymes, in insulated coolers, and let sit overnight. Then pitch with angels.

I'm assuming even though I'll take a gravity reading it may not be accurate as the angels will continue to access starches and convert above my original reading.

I'll collect in gallon jugs down to 20%, and then add the total volume collected with final proof reading... Ad up the percentage to ballpark the conversion? Does that sound right?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:07 pm

Why use both enzymes and Angel Yeast? Or maybe I should ask, if you're mashing with enzymes, why bother to use Angel yeast, rather than an ale yeast?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Honest_Liberty » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:48 am

I don't know. I'm over thinking it probably. I haven't had great conversion with my malted corn or the enzyme process so I figured just an added failsafe?

From what I've read on this forum corn doesn't do so great with angels like other grains
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash » Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:06 pm

I've just had a pretty good yield using micronized maize from the feed store. It's partially gelatinized already and easy to grind, only a few dollars more than cracked corn.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by silverbean » Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:12 am

silverbean wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:46 pm
MartinCash wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:39 pm
I think you might get a pretty low yield with such a small amount of grain. I'm using 10-15 kg in 50 L, and it seems thicker is better. No need to boil the corn, if you're happy with a lower yield. My experience was that a soak in hot water or backset to fully hydrate the corn is all it takes.
I am not expecting much maybe 4%ABV hoping for 5 or 6%. I was planning on putting in 7 or 8 Kg of the Maize meal but after 4 or was it 5Kg it was so thick, I did add another 4 Liters of cold water before I pitched so I could have squeezed another kilo in. It is what it is and that's a trial batch. I had the Maize meal as it was on sale for $5.00 a 20Kg bag, I'm not sure if the young guy at the feed store made a mistake. The meal soaks up a lot of hot water, I wonder if using colder water I could get more it without it setting like plaster or half a kilo of malted barley in with the hot water.
Meanwhile this afternoon (after 48 hours) the bubbling has slowed and the SG is 0.997, yesterday it was 1.025 then a few hours later 1.015, PH was 4.5 yesterday, I didn't check today but it tasted rather sour so i'm guessing its not far off finishing so I won't have long to find out the result.
I did 2 srips today, from 8 litres of wash yield was 2 litres at 28% so if my math is right the wash ended up at 7%. The Angel Yeast must have squeezed every drop of sugar out of the maize meal.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RC Al » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:20 am

So after 6 or so months of sitting, I got to some of my angel brews, the intention was to strip a bunch of base grains and mix to get to where I want flavour/ recipe wise for a spirit run. After chatting with Salty, he said that method would only get me so far and may as well just try what I want for a grain bill and adjust from there, everything will mix differently when mashed together vs separate (like a curry lols), makes sense but I will still have a go at some mixes with what ive stripped

I put down 2x 10kg of corn (cracked out of the bag and the other ground), 5kg of malted rye, 5 kg of barley and 5kg of oats. Well when I opened the oats, the only way I can describe the smell was sewerage, so I skipped that one lols. Everything else had a lacto infection, meh. Got to run the malted rye and 2 lots of corn through my newly built steam stripper!

Its pretty basic and I will be changing a couple of things, but overall I am happy with how things turned out even with the semi disastrous first run and a cleaning accident

So the first run was a bit ambitious, I put 15l of siphoned off wash into the boiler trying hard to not get any corn in there (honest) and the remaining 25l of slop in the thumper keg. On top of that went the 3 plate bubbler now with proper RC and still into my liebig. The first 2/3 of the run went well, rufluxed for a while and did a slow fores n heads take off and then up to a bout 2l/h for the remainder, I noticed the tumper changing sound and I shut it down to check on how it was going fill wise, it wasn't anywhere near full so I started up again. This is where things went a bit sideways, I was watching my plates load and I thought wow that steam is really misted up well, thats the best the its looked, then the product started to turn yellow and I had a burnt popcorn smell.. ahh crap must have been some corn in the main boiler.. Welll there sure was, as it turns out possibly 1/3 of the amount of corn husks that were in the thumper.. my boiling rocks actually got baked to the bottom of the keg and I put some discoloured patches in the base... sigh, that was my good squat keg...

That was enough for that evening. I am pretty sure all the smokey stuff was pretty close to tails anyways, so no huge loss of product, I haven't gone through the cuts on that lot yet so I cant give figures but maybe as much as 1.5-2L of 90+% hearts, the last few jars were progressively browner lols. Only aprox 6-7 litres used from the main boiler.

So next day, out and start cleaning stuff, smoke oil basically wipes off where you can reach, but I did a sac alc run to try and clear it out, seems to have worked for the most part. As the bubbler really looked like it needed a full strip, it and the krudded up keg got put to one side as a job for Ron and set up just the pot head to strip for the blending experiment.

Got a little more clever and use a biab bag to strain the ground corn via jugs and got solids free liquid into the boiler this time, this batch was a few litres bigger so 20 in the boiler and 25 in the thump and fired it up. Things went good for a while, then production started dropping off, tried a few things and then realised I was out of gas, hooked up another bottle and fired it all up again with no dramas. Had a few odd noises to wars the end which turned out to be the corn partially blocking up where the tube goes through the tee (judging by the pic). End result was 7L of 45% strip, stopped at around the 10% mark. I think it was a similar amount missing form the boiler again but forgot to note it down. 35 mins to drips, another hour or so until done, bout the same time as when I strip a 10% sugar wash (except I get 10+l of 40% out of that)

Then on to the rye, it was a much smaller batch, only 25l/5kg, it got drained for 2-3 mins in the biab and about a 5L jug of wet grain went in and another 4L of wash to cover the tube properly, 15l into the boiler and away we go. I think this one took just as long to fire up properly as the steam was bypassing the low fill in the thumper -less time to transfer the heat. Ended up with 3.76l of 45% strip and everything is still in the boilers so no transfer numbers.

I was pretty happy with that and cleaning stuff up as it was going dark when I dropped a SS 4-2 reducer on top of a 23l carboy, there was some language then lols

Still got some working out to do and 100% have to put a diffuser onto the end of the thump spear to break the steam bubbles up, Im thinking of uncentring the tube in the tee to make more clear room for solids, I will change the blow off valve around a bit, change the boiler to thump feed connection a bit and then onto some insulation
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:49 pm

RC Al wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:20 am
After chatting with Salty, he said that method would only get me so far and may as well just try what I want for a grain bill and adjust from there, everything will mix differently when mashed together vs separate
I have no more idea of what is right or wrong using this yeast or distilling the results once its done than you do RC.
I'm still in experimental mode fermenting and distilling one grain at a time to see what each produces taste wise.
Don't be swayed by anything I might have said regarding your method of getting where you want with this.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:59 pm

This stuff is very convenient. I've built up enough feints to do an All Grain All Feints run as long as I have some fresh wash to add, but I didn't have any plans to do that.

No problem, just put down a small AG to top up the still charge. Smoked some barley, then followed the instructions. The ferment is going nuts and should be ready in seven days :D

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RC Al » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:20 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:49 pm
RC Al wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:20 am
After chatting with Salty, he said that method would only get me so far and may as well just try what I want for a grain bill and adjust from there, everything will mix differently when mashed together vs separate
I have no more idea of what is right or wrong using this yeast or distilling the results once its done than you do RC.
I'm still in experimental mode fermenting and distilling one grain at a time to see what each produces taste wise.
Don't be swayed by anything I might have said regarding your method of getting where you want with this.
All good mate, you were just very persuasive lols, as I said at the end of the paragraph I will still be trying it out, I think its a great way to make a mud map of where your going, but not the same as a GPS, might have to dust off the little still.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:06 am

Teddysad wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:59 pm
https://youtube.com/shorts/oodGSqxQUvw.
Cracked corn in hot water for 90 mins, cooled to 35 then Angel Yellow added. 12 hours later:
Teddysad,

How many grams of yeast did you add? That looks like a standard 25L fermenting bucket?

Thanks,
Duck

Edit: nevermind, I found it back on page 6 or 7:
NZChris wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:11 pm
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 1#p7588682
23g-36g/10lb by my calculations
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by chickenfeed » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:36 am

Beerswimmer wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:01 pm
Nice! Please tell us what the flavor of the yeast is like.

I can't imagine that the enzymes would reproduce like yeast, unless it's some crazy GMO yeast that produces it's OWN yeast. That would revolutionize the fuel industry!
The enzymes are made by mold spores. The mold should reproduce and keep making new enzymes. This is true of Koji I received my yellow label angel yeast today but it was in a plain package so not sure if I got taken or now

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:50 am

I just got a couple bricks of the Angel Yellow Label (only really a yellow badge on the labelling) 'Starter of Liquor Making' product. I have 100lb of Calrose rice and am planning on two batches for comparison, one using hot water and the Angel product and another with full cooking and liquid enzymes. I'd like to see the difference, if any, in overall efficiency and effort. I'm anticipating the angel will make life easier at the expense of efficient use of the grain. I will try to keep my mind open and see where the results land with objectivity.
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Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

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