No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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NZChris
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

From the bag;
Yeast
Rhizopus
A-amylase
Gluco amylase
Phytase
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

zapata wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:43 pm I feel like this is an elaborate ruse to pull my leg or something, it sounds too good to be true. I did a little browsing, and I can't find much definitive on this stuff. Do we have a clue what is in it? Enzymes? Koji, the russian site says koji? Yeast, obviously. Nutes? IDK, room temperature fully converting enzymes seem newsworthy or something.
On Alibaba the minimum order is 1,000 kg, so somebody must be buying this stuff.
They don't say to use room temperature water. They say "hot water", whatever that means :?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Chauncey »

You should do a recipe writeup thread with results for angel yeast. This stuff catches on it would make for a good tried and true.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Chauncey wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:02 am You should do a recipe writeup thread with results for angel yeast. This stuff catches on it would make for a good tried and true.
"No mash corn: add water, corn @2lbs per gallon, Angel yeast. Finishes around 1.000." Done. Tried and true. :thumbup:
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 6:27 pm From the bag;
Yeast
Rhizopus
A-amylase
Gluco amylase
Phytase
Thanks. And yeah, not quite room temperature, but still, time and energy savings are huge. :clap:

The yeast and enzymes are straight forward. The Rhizopus is interesting, and a bit vague.
Anybody familiar with the genus? I don't think it's commonly used as a Koji (Aspergillus oryzae). As a complete speculation though could it serendipitously be another oryzae, Rhizopus oryzae? I bet theres a Chinese patent out there somewhere.

At the risk of compounding some fear mongering on top of my speculation, I did stumble across this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizopus_ ... hogenicity
Rhizopus oryzae commonly causes a disease known as mucormycosis characterized by growing hyphae within and surrounding blood vessels. The causal agents of mucormycosis is the ergot alkaloid agroclavine which is toxic to humans, sheep and cattle.[7] This infection usually occurs in immunocompromised individuals but is rare.[9][10] Common risk factors associated with primary cutaneous mucormycosis is ketoacidosis, neutropenia, acute lymphobloastic leukemia, lymphomas, systemic steroids, chemotherapy, and dialysis. Treatment includes amphotericin B, posaconazole, itraconazole, and fluconazole.[11] The majority of the cases of infection are rhinocerebral infections. At the same time, it has been found in literature that R. oryzae can produce antibiotic activity on some bacteria.[7]

In Indonesia, where white cakes are commonly consumed are made from coconut and fermented with R. oryzae, traditionally called "bongkerk" caused food poisoning. Symptoms included hypoglycemia, severe spasms, convulsions, and death.
Which is kind of a shit warning because it says both "commonly causes" and "but is rare".
And should be tempered by:
Rhizopus oryzae is considered GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) by the FDA and thus recognized as safe to use industrially
I've only just heard of this so I may be completely wrong. But it might be prudent to be a bit careful, particularly for anyone having risk factors. It's probably no more dangerous than stilling is, but I might consider simple precautions like not rinsing my eyes with the wash.

Also interesting because I'm an ester whore:
Dry mycelium of four R. oryzae strains proved effective for catalysing the synthesis of different flavor esters. For example, the pineapple flavour or butyl acetate esters was produced by the esterification reactions between acetic acid and butanol by R. oryzae.
Of course if it does that with butanol, it can probably do it with ethanol. But I wonder how it would like a dunder pit? Anybody want to feed their tails to their grain bed and see it turns into a fruit salad?

Fascinating stuff guys, thanks for getting on it and sharing. I wish instacart delivered from Aliexpress!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Physiology and industrial uses
Rhizopus oryzae is involved in steroid transformations and it produces 4-desmethyl steroids which has been useful in the fermentation industry. The carbon sources does influence the ratio of polar and neutral lipids. The mycelium found in R. oryzae contains lipids and the highest lipid content occurs when grown on fructose. The highest unsaturated fatty acid content is observed at 30 °C and lowest at 15 °C. Proteolytic properties have been observed well under the conditions of pH 7 at 35 °C. Pyridozine and thiamine prefer proteinase production. R. oryzae can degrade aflatoxin A1 to isomeric hydroxy compounds and aflatoxin G1 to fluorescent metabolite aflatoxin A1. There are various factors that influence the production of dextro-lactic acids, fumaric acid, and metabolism of R. oryzae. For examples, in 40 °C there is more favorable growth for glucose consumption, however this influenced production of d-lactic acid production negatively. Glucose concentration of 15% is needed for optimal production of d-lactic acid. Fumaric acid production was suppressed in media containing more than 6 grams of NH4NO3 per liter and is favorable to d-lactic acid production.

Rhizopus oryzae is considered GRAS by the FDA and thus recognized as safe to use industrially as it can consume a range of carbon sources. During fermentation. R. oryzae produce amylase, lipase, and protease activity to increase nutrient's ability to use many compounds as an energy and carbon source. Historically, it has been used in fermentation, specifically to ferment soybean and create tempeh in Malaysia and Indonesia. Using the same methods to create traditional tempeh, R. oryzae can be inoculated in other cooked legumes such as peas, beans, and fava beans. Similarly in tempeh making, there is an initial bacterial fermentation in legumes when they are soaked for a while before being cooked. Fermentation incubation lasts for 48 hours at 33 °C. After incubation, mycelium can be observed between the legumes creating a larger, uniform product. Overall, fruits, grains, nuts, and legumes mold-fermentation with R. oryzae produces sensory changes in foods such as creating acidity, sweetness and bitterness. R. oryzae can produce lactate from glucose at high levels, which is used as a food additive and can also degrade plastics. In enzyme modified cheese products,R. oryzae provides microbial enzymes where milk fat and proteins are broken down to create powder and paste forms of cheese. Specifically, it breaks down cheese curds and acid casein.

Among finding cellulases and hemicellulases, other enzymes such as protease, urease, ribonuclease, pectate lyase, and polygalacturonase are found in cultural media of R. oryzae. Besides producing a number of enzymes, it can also produce a number of organic acids, alcohol, and esters. Cellulases in R. oryzae can be applied to biotechnology, in food, brewery and wine, animal feed, textiles and laundry, pulp and paper industries, and agriculture. R. oryzae can convert both glucose and xylose under aerobic conditions into pure L (+)-lactic acids with by-products such as xylitol, glycerol, ethanol, carbon dioxide and fungal biomass. Endo-xylanase is a key enzyme for xylan depolymerization and was produced by R. oryzae fermentation from different xylan-containing agricultural by-products such as wheat straw, wheat stems, cottons bagasse, hazelnut shells, corn cobs, and oat sawdust. Pectinases are required for extraction and clarification of fruit juices and wines, extraction of oils, flavors and pigmentation from plant material, preparation of cellulose fibers for linen, jute and hemp manufacture as well as, coffee and tea fermentations. R. oryzae can break down starch content in rice plants and therefore shows amylolytic activities. Also, it has been reported to produce extra cellular isoamylase which is used in food industries. Isoamylase was found to saccharify potato starch, arrow root, tamarind kernel, tapioca, and oat. The saccharifying ability of the enzyme is highly applicable in sugar production industries. Proteases, which can be found in R. oryzae are highly useful in commercial industries. For instance, it has increased application in food, pharmaceutical, detergent, leather, tanning industries. It is also involved in silver recovery and peptide synthesis. One strain of R. oryzae was found to secrete alkaline serine protease which shows high pH stability within 3 to 6 and poor thermos-stability. Lipase that is extracted from R. oryzae have been consumed as digestive aids without adverse reactions. Lipases hydrolyze fats and oils with subsequent release of free fatty acids such as diacylglycerols, monoacylglycerols and glycerol. Lipases have been involved in biotechnology applications because of its ability to catalyze synthetic reactions in non-aqueous solutions. One study has reported the expression of a fungal 11 alpha-steroid hydroxylase from R. oryzae which can be used to perform the 11 alpha-hydroxylation of the steroid skeleton which has simplified steroid drug production. R. oryzae can produce intracellular ribonuclease in a metal ion-regulated liquid medium with the addition of calcium and molybdenum stimulating ribonuclease production. R. oryzae strain ENHE isolated from contaminated soil was found to be capable of tolerating and removing pentachlorophenol. R. oryzae is known to produce L (+)-lactic acid because the fungus cells possess better resistance to high concentration of accumulated lactic acid and lower content of nutrient requirement compared to the commonly used bacterial procedures. Thus, R. oryzae is the most efficient approached to improve lactic acid production process that facilitates multiple reuses of fungal cells for long-term lactic acid production. Ethanol is the main by-product in the fermentation process of R. oryzae during the production of L-lactic acid. R. oryzae can be used as a biocatalyst for ester production in organic solvent. Dry mycelium of four R. oryzae strains proved effective for catalysing the synthesis of different flavor esters. For example, the pineapple flavour or butyl acetate esters was produced by the esterification reactions between acetic acid and butanol by R. oryzae. This flavor compound can be used in food, cosmetic and pharmaceutical industries. Within the biodiesel industry, biodiesel fuel as fatty acid methyl ester is produced by the esterification of plant oil or animal fat with methanol. This is a renewable fuel resource compared to the traditional petroleum-based fuels. Production of biodiesel fuel from plant oils from cells of R. oryzae immobilized within biomass support particles were investigated for the methanolysis of soybean oil. Olive oil or oleic acid was found to be effective for enhancing methanolysis activity which is a promising results within the biodiesel industry.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

zapata wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:15 am But I wonder how it would like a dunder pit? Anybody want to feed their tails to their grain bed and see it turns into a fruit salad?

I'll try it. After my last strip I'm going to save some of the backset for the next batch of bourbon. I'll add a sprinkle of Angel and a sprinkle of sugar to it and see what happens.

Today I'm finishing my grinding and will be pouring boiling water on the grains to sterilize, possibly pitch later tonight or tomorrow morning.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Corsaire »

I was reading the corn flakes thread again.
Someone found out about this angel yeast years ago but probably didn't follow up on it.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31371&start=480#p7286466
Funny.
Still waiting on mine to show up...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

This morning the bubbling in the fermenters has slowed considerably, looks like they are nearly done. This round has 12.5lbs of caramel 60l malt in each fermenter, that malt has low to no DP. One has 50lbs of oats, the other has 50lbs of cracked corn run through my mill. 3 days with improved stirring( I bought a paint stirrer) and being in my very hot garage has done the trick! One is even starting to get some lacto pellicle growing on it despite my attempts at sterilization. Tonight I'll add backset to the lacto one and get my still ready for the next round of stripping when the gravity is near 1.000. :thumbup:
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I finished that last batch and put it into a barrel, it smelled and tasted like an oatmeal cream pie! Yesterday I started the first 2 of 4 ferments for my next batch, Sundae Chocolate. It's a raging ferment!


This should really be a sticky thread. It's a tried and proven method, many times over, that saves a lot of time and energy. I'll most likely never bother with mashing again!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

What are temperature are you using for "hot water"?

I've been using 210F and that is doing it for me for my small trials.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

NZChris wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:53 pm What are temperature are you using for "hot water"?
Kicked off a small experimental batch of this about 4 days ago.
FWIW I used water straight from the hot water system, wouldn't want to leave your hand in it for more than a second or two.
Let it cool to 35ish C , before chucking the yeast in, its been bubbling away happily ever since. Have got a heat pad sitting under it set at 30 c as its pretty much the middle of winter.
None of my other washes get such luxury , they just make do with an old blanket around them and what heat they can generate for them selves.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

What grain did you use, Bill? How fine?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Used whole Barley bought from stock feed place, ground it to a course grind, each grain in 4 to 6 pieces on average.
Dug out a bit of grain yesterday, feels soft n spongy.
6KG grain
19 L water
30 grams yeast.
Was going to use wheat to see if it made a decent neutral, for no particular reason bought barley on the spur of the moment when at grain store. :crazy:
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

I suggest you record SG and refractive index every day if you have the capability.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Hydrometer only, not going to give any meaningful information that I can see.
Proof will be in the stripping once its finished.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by DSmith78 »

Is anybody sourcing this stuff in the UK? Aliexpress do ship but a lot of people saying they don't receive the order!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

DSmith78 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:14 am Is anybody sourcing this stuff in the UK? Aliexpress do ship but a lot of people saying they don't receive the order!
Almost everything I've ordered out of China since Covid has not arrived in NZ.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I know nothing , mine came from a group buy on another forum. Pretty sure it wasn't ordered direct from China.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

I'd hold off ordering anything from the Northern Hemisphere for a while. I've had nothing from China lately.

One of my orders from the Ukraine has been returned to the sender and another order of short alcometers I would really like to have yesterday hasn't shown up yet.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:34 am
DSmith78 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:14 am Is anybody sourcing this stuff in the UK? Aliexpress do ship but a lot of people saying they don't receive the order!
Almost everything I've ordered out of China since Covid has not arrived in NZ.
I've just waited 4 weeks for a chlorine floater for the pool!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

I have ordered directly from Wuhan twice during the pandemic and received it both times, but in the Northern hemisphere.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Yesterday I stripped the first of 4 mashes, today is #2. Both were made without pouring boiling water on the grains to try and sterilize them and prevent lacto. It didn't do much worse than sterilized grains, I had a lacto after day 5 on both. The sterilized grains from before also had lacto by the 5th day. Maybe it's my non-sealed fermenters? I do spray them with Starsan any time open them or do anything. Maybe my garage is just a lacto environment. I might not sterilize the grains from now on since it didn't seem to do much. The strip produced the expected volume and smelled great, today's strip is also smelling great!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

About what temperature water did you use?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:31 pm About what temperature water did you use?
Room temp, straight from my garden hose.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Today I'm pouring boiling water on the grains of ferments #3,4. I have the time and propane. I'll see if there's any difference in yield between the sterilized and gelatinized grains and the non sterilized ones.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I'm thinking I'll heat the water enough to hit 35C, then pitch straight away for my next one.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:31 pm I'm thinking I'll heat the water enough to hit 35C, then pitch straight away for my next one.
Sounds good.

I always, always get a lactic infection. I have 50 gallon Rubbermade tubs with pretty loose lids that I use for fermenters, they were only $8 a piece :thumbup: . I use Starsan liberally, a fersh squirt bottle everytime. I have sterilized my grains, my stirrer, the lids, etc. Still get an infection after about 5 or so days. I do ferment right where I mill the grains though. Just trying to cut back the risk. Next time I'll mill on the other side of the house and see what happens.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Not much infection this time! Just a very very thin pellicle. No vomit smells or anything. Something worked. #3 was made using 50lbs of rolled oats instead of 50lbs of corn. Stripping #3 today, #4 tomorrow.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

Last one for a while, I'm going to take a break for a few weeks.
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