No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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RockinRockies
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RockinRockies »

I haven't tried that yet. My current batch still has the oat cap but nothing coming out of my airlock tube. Smells strong of alcohol but I cannot imagine it's finished that fast, or that if something was wrong and it didn't perform, that 4.5% abv smells that strong of alcohol. Very confused

I just picked up a jar of my buddies gumball abortion with angels.
Interesting thing, after 5 months on oak stick... The flavor is good but the funk that it's whatever this funk is, turned into literal grape drink on the nose. It's not unpleasant but doesn't gel with the taste. Don't know what to make of that.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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elbono wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:54 pm I was hoping some of the "magic" enzymes/mold in the angel yeast would survive the first fermentation. I combined roughly equal parts spent corn/fresh milled corn. 3 weeks later it didn't seem like it did much judging by smell/texture/taste.
Have you done a starch test?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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elbono wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:54 pm I was hoping some of the "magic" enzymes/mold in the angel yeast would survive the first fermentation. I combined roughly equal parts spent corn/fresh milled corn. 3 weeks later it didn't seem like it did much judging by smell/texture/taste.
I've been wondering about this stuff for a while. It contains both a mould and some enzymes. My theory is that the enzymes start the work of breaking up starch so that the yeast has something to work with while the mould gets to work. I presumed that the mould did the bulk of the heavy lifiting. The mould is listed as rhizopus and a quick search suggests that it might be rhizopus oryzae which is commonly used for the production of gluco-amylase.
R. oryzae can break down starch content in rice plants and therefore shows amylolytic activities. Also, it has been reported to produce extra cellular isoamylase which is used in food industries. Isoamylase was found to saccharify potato starch, arrow root, tamarind kernel, tapioca, and oat. The saccharifying ability of the enzyme is highly applicable in sugar production industries. Proteases, which can be found in R. oryzae are highly useful in commercial industries.
The question then is why the mould is not surviving the transfer to the new grains. It's possible that it's the alcohol level that kills it off, although I got the impression that the two ran in parallel. Its optimal growth is at 37C, not far from the 32C recommended by Angel Yeast so perhaps it grows rapidly at first, releasing the amylase enzymes and then gets killed off by the rising yeast population and alcohol. A test would be to take a sample of the grains after 2-3 days and use this to innoculate a fresh batch. If this works though, it means you'll probably have to have a rolling fermentation process where you start a new batch every 3 days, which might not be too convenient.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NormandieStill wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:49 pm A test would be to take a sample of the grains after 2-3 days and use this to innoculate a fresh batch.
My next experiment will probably be something along these lines. I've been following the instructions fairly closely, stir every few hours for a few days then seal with a fermentation lock. I may grab a sample before sealing it up next time.

Could be alcohol, carbon dioxide, lack of food or who knows what killing off the mold. Could be the enzymes are more involved than just giving it a kick to get everything started.

If a sample taken like this works the next step would be to refrigerate the sample and see if everything goes dormant and wakes up and goes to work when warmed up and fed. If this works something like sourdough starter maintenance might avoid the rolling fermentation.

I recently moved from a cycle based on a 5 gallon boiler to a 15 gallon boiler. At 5 gallons I was constantly running out, now my friends and I can't keep up so i wouldn't want to constantly have a batch in process.

I hoped someone else had developed a routine and I could just follow the steps. Oh well...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:23 pm Have you done a starch test?
No, since I didn't gelatinize I figured it wouldn't tell me much. It's certainly worth a couple of drops of iodine. I'll try to do that today I haven't tossed it on the mulch pile yet.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Today will do a stripping run on the two batches of flaked corn that were fermented using Yellow label. They have been racked off and sitting in my cold room clearing.

One question I have. Does Yellow label contain the mold that produces enzymes? Or does it contain enzymes that were produced by mold? … OK, that’s two questions. :)
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I'm pretty sure it has the mold that produces the enzymes, at least that's how the Chinglish (sorry about that but it is a pretty hideous translation) reads on the package.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Dancing4dan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:45 am One question I have. Does Yellow label contain the mold that produces enzymes? Or does it contain enzymes that were produced by mold? … OK, that’s two questions. :)
Make it 4 questions
Or both? Or enzymes produced by other means and mold?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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elbono wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:33 am
NZChris wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:23 pm Have you done a starch test?
No, since I didn't gelatinize I figured it wouldn't tell me much. It's certainly worth a couple of drops of iodine. I'll try to do that today I haven't tossed it on the mulch pile yet.
Starch test was negative (stayed brown), added some boiling water, still negative, cooked on the stove for a few minutes, positive (turned black).

My interpretation is the mold/enzymes are working on the corn without going through a gelatinized phase.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Dancing4dan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:45 am Today will do a stripping run on the two batches of flaked corn that were fermented using Yellow label. They have been racked off and sitting in my cold room clearing.

One question I have. Does Yellow label contain the mold that produces enzymes? Or does it contain enzymes that were produced by mold? … OK, that’s two questions. :)
The ingredients list on the packet says that it contains both enzymes (broken down under "Food Additives") and the mould (rhizopus). So both enzyme-producing mould and the enzymes (not necessarily the same versions).

I'm really impressed with how few solids survive the twin assault of yeast + mould. When I strained the last batch the only thing left seemed to be the wheat bran.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Dancing4dan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:45 am I'm really impressed with how few solids survive the twin assault of yeast + mould. When I strained the last batch the only thing left seemed to be the wheat bran.
I'm definitely impressed, my mashing procedure definitely isn't optimized but this stuff beats anything I've been able to achieve with either Seb enzymes or malted barley in corn by A LOT.

A lot my initial opinion of the reuse experiment failing was based on the added corn still being fairly intact.

But...
elbono wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:18 am Starch test was negative (stayed brown), added some boiling water, still negative, cooked on the stove for a few minutes, positive (turned black)
After sitting on the counter for an hour or two this started separating into layers like a conventional mash. Clear layer on top, milky layer below, what's left of the corn below that. The clear liquid is a definite negative for starch, the milky stuff is an iffy negative I get some black if I put in more iodine than usual and it's a weak black.

Some kind of enzyme action going on? Wouldn't taking it to a boil denature any enzymes?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I ran the flaked corn / yellow label ferment. Used a pot still to run first 40 L then did 1 1/2 distillation using the LM/VM head on a riser without packed column. Added the four gallons of low wines from the pot still to a very clean 22 L wash and did a 1 1/2 distillation.

Results are 500 ml head cut, then 2+ gallons at 170 proof hearts. 2 L tails. Tastes great. Pretty happy with that. Surprised by the small heads cut.

Will definitely try this on cracked feed corn!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

Picked up a bag of micronised corn today, and still have some barley and wheat left over. Gonna mix up a few batches this weekend and see how they turn out
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

Dancing4dan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:45 am One question I have. Does Yellow label contain the mold that produces enzymes? Or does it contain enzymes that were produced by mold? … OK, that’s two questions. :)
my understanding is it has both
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Big_dog »

Started a 25g batch of all corn a few days ago. Stirring twice a day. Just ground up 50lbs of corn, added hose water, threw in the yeast. Doesn’t get any easier than that. Very active still. I’m thinking it’ll be a couple weeks because I used cold water, but I’ll update when it’s done and volume and % after strip.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by The Baker »

Started a 25g batch of all corn a few days ago. Stirring twice a day.

Stirring vigorously at the start is good. Incorporates oxygen needed to get the yeasties going.

But after that the yeast needs to NOT have more oxygen.
Stirring gently to bring up grain from the bottom is probably a good idea; do not incorporate oxygen by hard stirring at the top.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

Hiw long does this yeast stay good for once opened? I opened my pack about 2-3 months ago, and it has been in the fridge since then. I pitched 35g in each 25l fermenter a while ago and im not seeing any action, temp doesnt appear to be changing either....
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

The Baker wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:08 pm Started a 25g batch of all corn a few days ago. Stirring twice a day.

Stirring vigorously at the start is good. Incorporates oxygen needed to get the yeasties going.

But after that the yeast needs to NOT have more oxygen.
Stirring gently to bring up grain from the bottom is probably a good idea; do not incorporate oxygen by hard stirring at the top.

Geoff
The instructions for Angel Yellow Label call for stirring to break up and incorporate the cap that will form as it breaks down the starches.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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After a while with no action, i whipped it up with a paint stirrer, thinking maybe there wasnt enough oxygen in there. An hour later and it seems to be moving now, but its off to a slow start.....
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Is it at the right temp?....it doesnt like the cold from what Ive seen.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I pitched it at 32c. I was hoping for 35, but by the time i woke up today it was 32.

I have heat belts and a blanket, temp set to 32.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Metalking00 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:14 pm After a while with no action, i whipped it up with a paint stirrer, thinking maybe there wasnt enough oxygen in there. An hour later and it seems to be moving now, but its off to a slow start.....
Instructions are to stir it well a couple of times a day for the first several days.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

When you say no action.....do you mean no bubbles in the airlock ?, or something else?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

I keep it in my basement: ~21C/69F, so it's a pretty forgiving yeast.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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SB, no airlock action, and when the lid was removed there was no sizzle, no movement. The temp was slowly dropping as well. It just looked and sounded exactly as it did pre-pitching.

I just looked in on them again and theyre going along nicely now, temp has risen a few points above where the belts turn off.

The last time i used this on rice it was going strong shortly after pitching. This time took about 4 hours to show any signs of life. I know its not a looong time, but longer than ive experienced with this before.

I think maybe it was under-oxygenated, as i boiled the water for the grains. Once it was all mixed together it was a bit thick and hard to whip up with a spoon to get air in there. The paint stirrer worked a lot better.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Watching an airlock is not reliable, they are notorious for leaking, removing the lid and looking inside as you did is the way . :thumbup:
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

Its bubbling happily now. Smells great too!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

Its been about a week since i pitched the yeast and i have some evidence that it appears to be beneficial to stir every day, or at least occasionally. Most of the solids in the fermenters are gone, but there is some left along with what looks like yeast trub. The temp was at 31.8 before i gave it a very gentle stir a few minutes ago and now its at 32.2 . The heating belts were not on at this time, and anyway theyre set to turn off at 32. Seems that as long as theres something to put into suspension it helps to give it a gentle mix.

The instructions say to stir for the first 3 days, but it seems that a daily mix helps.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Running my stripping runs now. Squeezing out what was left was pretty painless, think ill be investing in a mop wringer soon though. Im just about out of demijohns too....

The mash was 52% corn, 38% golden promise and 10% wheat. Based on the temp the charge is boiling at (93c), looks like it ended up right around 10%. This yeast is impressive!

The strip smells pretty damn good, too. Very happy.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

The bourbon turned out great. Very happy.

I have a question for the folks that have done a 100% corn with angel yeast.

I ground up some micronized corn as fine as I could manage with my crappy mill, added it to the fermenters and topped up with boiling water while stirring. so far so good. I wrapped them up in blankets (so they'd still be a bit warm by the time I got home from work the next day) and let sit overnight to cool. When I got home, the temp was perfect for pitching, but I found my fermenters to be basically a solid block of corn with a few inches of water on top. I was huffin and puffin, sweatin and cussin trying to break that shit up with my little mash paddle. I eventually got it done, and churned it up with a paint mixer to break up the chunks and get some oxygen into it.

How do you guys keep it from turning into corn concrete? Did I miss something?
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