No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

Still fermenting.

PH is 3.5… Have never checked PH during a ferment. Did this time because when I got my nose close for a sniff. Not a “bad” smell, just burned my nose like hell.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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This ferment is still going. Temperature dropped because i forgot to put the blanket back on for a couple days. I took the lid off and gave it a stir to knock out some Co2. Only way I can figure out if the ferment is done or not is to beat out the Co2. Any measure of SG is useless because of the enzymes. If it still bubbles it is still fermenting.... :econfused: Co2 just builds up again and keeps going. The BIAB is practically empty of flaked corn. Started with around 22 pounds. Ferment is slower but still going after two weeks. I'm going to wait and watch.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Dancing4dan wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:51 pm If it still bubbles it is still fermenting.
That has been my experience, just leave it to do its thing. When its done its done......there will be no movement or bubbles.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

If you have a refractometer, the reading will stop changing when the ferment is done.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:47 pm
Dancing4dan wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:51 pm If it still bubbles it is still fermenting.
That has been my experience, just leave it to do its thing. When its done its done......there will be no movement or bubbles.
Yeah. That’s where this one is going.

I usually measure my conversion by how sticky everything gets during a mash. Not real scientific. This is so different. And easy.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:49 am If you have a refractometer, the reading will stop changing when the ferment is done.
Unfortunately I don’t. I have one for ABV after distillation but it never seems to jive with my hydrometers. :? It would be interesting to watch / monitor the changes in ETOH levels.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Dancing4dan wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:25 pm Unfortunately I don’t. I have one for ABV after distillation but it never seems to jive with my hydrometers. :? It would be interesting to watch / monitor the changes in ETOH levels.
That will do, as you’re only looking for change, not an accurate reading of anything.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:53 pm
Dancing4dan wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:25 pm Unfortunately I don’t. I have one for ABV after distillation but it never seems to jive with my hydrometers. :? It would be interesting to watch / monitor the changes in ETOH levels.
That will do, as you’re only looking for change, not an accurate reading of anything.
True…
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Cold crashed. Cleared, Racked off. This is a very nice wash. Smell and taste of the end wash is great. Fermented real nice.

One mash and ferment isn’t a lot of data on a new process for me but I am very impressed. Given the results others have posted and seeing it for myself, will definitely be doing more of the yellow label process.

Mashing the second batch only took 1/2 hour! :clap: Fill fermenter and BIAB with hot tap water, add flaked corn and stir. Wait for it to cool to pitch temperature and presto bingo! Second ferment going!

I’m tempted to try this same mash / ferment process with malted barley. Adding yellow label yeast to malted barley would be enzyme overkill but could save any need for heating water. My tap water comes out at 140*. I need about 160* to get down to 150* after barley is added. Starting at 140* with corn knocks temp down to about 127*F after corn is added.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

Strained out the corn today. I should have done that a few days back to let the yeast and other suspended powders settle out. I have it out back in the cold wind to hopefully speed up the settling, but I am really hoping to get it running in a few hours to at least get low wines done.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

Ran it after it settled. Sadly, I lost a lot of product to a spill, so I only have about half a gallon of low wines. Took a taste during the run and it tasted pretty good. Overall, I would consider it a success. I will probably take the half-gallon of low wines and run it in a feints run through reflux, and try again with the angel yeast. The cold weather and having to thaw stuff out to be able to run were a big frustration.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by psf »

for corn only recipes...would it be beneficial to use alpha if using cracked corn during heating since it is recommended to simmer the corn a little to assist the Angel? Thanks
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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psf wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:54 am for corn only recipes...would it be beneficial to use alpha if using cracked corn during heating since it is recommended to simmer the corn a little to assist the Angel? Thanks
I doubt it.

If you want to help the Angel, do a finer grind.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

psf wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:54 am for corn only recipes...would it be beneficial to use alpha if using cracked corn during heating since it is recommended to simmer the corn a little to assist the Angel? Thanks
from what I've read the yellow label has enzymes in it as well as yeast and mold

"Net content: 50g
Shelf life: 24 months
Product ingredients: yeast, rhizopus, food additives (a-amylase, glucoamylase, phytase)"
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You don't need to add anything to this yeast......use it as directed on the pack......keep it within the reccomended temprature range, it doesn't like getting cold in my experience.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

I've read quite mixed reviews on this site over the taste of the product of the angel yeast for liquor. Some people say it tastes good others say nearly undrinkable. my one experience with angel yeast was not good but that was operator error I believe. I got the wrong type, not the "yellow label". I think I need to experiment again with this stuff.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

Read the instructions.

Don’t accept advice and opinion from anyone who made poor product using it, because they probably hadn’t followed the instructions.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NormandieStill »

Finished a batch of wheat neutral using this stuff.

Recipe:

8kg feed grade wheat (straw, mud and all)
23L water (16L heating to around 65C, the remainder added after to help cool to pitching temp)
42g Yellow Label yeast

Ground the wheat in my corona mill, mixed with the hot water and stirred from time-to-time for a 1h30 rest (I tried 2h30 as well for no difference in the end result). Cooled with the wort chiller and the remaining water to get to 35C. Pitched the yeast and stirred.

Within an hour it had formed a cap which threatened to overflow the fermenter. I had to stir the cap in about 4 times over the next couple of hours to keep it from making a mess. By the following morning it had calmed down. For the first couple of days I stirred once a day, although my current "mash paddle" (SS fish slice) doesn't have a long enough handle to reach the bottom of the fermenter so I don't know how efficient that really was.

Then I let them run out. After 6-8 weeks I squeezed the grains and cold crashed. My first batch of 3 may have gone a little longer as it cleared while still on the grain and I was able to rack off 50% of the total volume before squeezing. The second two went in to the still quite cloudy despite the cold crash.

3 batches netted around 6L @ 32% per batch for a total of 17.5L @ 30% in the boiler. (5.25L total alcohol). I refluxed on my CCVM, pulling 95% at 750ml / hr and after cuts I got 1.75L of good clean hearts, 750ml of late heads which I'll age out separately to see if they clean up. 500ml of early tails which I'll do the same with, and 500ml of some slightly stinky but quite interesting tails which I may stick on oak just to see what happens to them (caramelised orange notes on the nose). The final jar (jar 21 collecting 250ml / jar) was super stinky so I stopped there. The unkept stuff will be kept for firelighting as I don't think refluxed feints will add anything interesting / useful to the feints collection.

I feel that the final yield is a little low. I'd have liked to see 2L @ 95%) but it's good and clean. The wheat costs me 5€ per 25kg, which nets 1.75L @ 95% so even allowing for the higher cost of the yeast, it's cheaper than a sugar wash (the sugar for my last batch of WPOSW cost 10€ for the same final yield although I only stripped to 40% so I might have been able squeeze a last little bit out).

The only disadvantage is speed, although my fermenter is unheated so sits at around 20C whereas the instructions say 32C. I now have a fridge that I can repurpose as a fermenting chamber so I'll see if that speeds things up.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Normandie at a quick glance your ratios of water,grain, yeast, look very close to those recommended.
Reckon your yield may have been better if you kept the temp up. From my own experience the Angel Yeast doesn't appear to like going below the recommended minimum of 26c. All of my best results to date have been when Ive kept it close to 32C
Found that out the hard way recently when I tried to do a ferment without using artificial heat.
Summer here , days are hot.....I thought I could get away with it...........wrong!

Recommended temps here for others who may need them.
Max 38C
Optimum 32C
Low 26C
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RockinRockies »

So I used angels to hopefully pull more from the grains on a crap conversion
50lb smoked oats
50lb unmalted wheat
50 gallons

I'm not sure if my strike temp was insufficient, my pH may have been a bit high because I put in an acid blend instead of pure citric (Maybe it's less potent), or whether feed oats have less fermentables, but I ended up at 4.5 potential with a bad starch test.

Added DADY and Angel's. Everything sanitized. Good grief this stuff has a funktification after 36 hours. Not quite infection smelling but just odd. I really don't know how to explain it but it's awful. Almost like vomit?

This'll be interesting to see what happens. I hope it turns out because those oats were smoked by the BBQ/ brewery down the street Gonna run one or two plates max to extract all the smoke I can.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RockinRockies »

Well, I way under pitched the yellow label. By my calculations for 100lb of grain I should have added half the friggin 500g package! 23-32g/10lb grains!
That's way too expensive and I'll just stick with Booners and bakers.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

Going through the ingredient list, the vomit smell is from a number of the enzymes that are part of the Angel Yeast. I work with an enzyme mix that has them and some others in it, and it have a vomit like smell. The smell goes away as the enzymes do their work. BTW, you didn't need to add DADY, but I guess it will be interesting to see if it makes any difference.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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RockinRockies wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:01 pm Well, I way under pitched the yellow label. By my calculations for 100lb of grain I should have added half the friggin 500g package! 23-32g/10lb grains!
That's way too expensive and I'll just stick with Booners and bakers.
Something is off with that calculator
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NormandieStill »

I used 0.525% by weight. So your hundred pounds would need just over half a pound. I get 240g. I based by amount on hedging towards to the upper end of their range 0.4-0.6% by weight (IIRC). 1 pack should cover you for about 200lbs even if you use the maximum pitching rate.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NormandieStill wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:00 am I used 0.525% by weight. So your hundred pounds would need just over half a pound. I get 240g. I based by amount on hedging towards to the upper end of their range 0.4-0.6% by weight (IIRC). 1 pack should cover you for about 200lbs even if you use the maximum pitching rate.
Yeah, that seems like a ton of product compared to my normal pitch rates. I like having this as a backup to see if I can get better extraction. With the prices I've been seeing that's $15-20/50 gallon mash. Now I'm wondering if under pitching is why my buddies ferments never got rid of that faint vomit smell. Smells I add more?
I only added less than a cup, maybe 2/3-3/4 cup.

I'll put my barrel band heater on it later today. It's all but stopped and I think it went below 80°F.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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RockinRockies wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:13 am
NormandieStill wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:00 am I used 0.525% by weight. So your hundred pounds would need just over half a pound. I get 240g. I based by amount on hedging towards to the upper end of their range 0.4-0.6% by weight (IIRC). 1 pack should cover you for about 200lbs even if you use the maximum pitching rate.
Yeah, that seems like a ton of product compared to my normal pitch rates. I like having this as a backup to see if I can get better extraction. With the prices I've been seeing that's $15-20/50 gallon mash. Now I'm wondering if under pitching is why my buddies ferments never got rid of that faint vomit smell. Smells I add more?
I only added less than a cup, maybe 2/3-3/4 cup.

I'll put my barrel band heater on it later today. It's all but stopped and I think it went below 80°F.
This is such a different product from other yeast. I'm not sure you can make a comparison on cost to distiller yeast.

The savings come from the decreased work of mashing as well as the decreased amount of energy required to mash. This works on grains and cereals in water from a household hot water tap. That is where the savings are. Not really a saving in the cost of yeast but in production time and energy. There would also be a saving on the cost of malted grain or cereal.

My fermenters are all full right now but in the future I want to try this on milled cracked corn which I can get real cheap.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RockinRockies »

Dancing4dan wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:48 am
NormandieStill wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:00 am
This is such a different product from other yeast. I'm not sure you can make a comparison on cost to distiller yeast.

The savings come from the decreased work of mashing as well as the decreased amount of energy required to mash. This works on grains and cereals in water from a household hot water tap. That is where the savings are. Not really a saving in the cost of yeast but in production time and energy. There would also be a saving on the cost of malted grain or cereal.
Looks like I'll be adding my barrel band heater and another cup of this yeast
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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RockinRockies wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:13 am
NormandieStill wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:00 am I used 0.525% by weight. So your hundred pounds would need just over half a pound. I get 240g. I based by amount on hedging towards to the upper end of their range 0.4-0.6% by weight (IIRC). 1 pack should cover you for about 200lbs even if you use the maximum pitching rate.
Yeah, that seems like a ton of product compared to my normal pitch rates. I like having this as a backup to see if I can get better extraction. With the prices I've been seeing that's $15-20/50 gallon mash. Now I'm wondering if under pitching is why my buddies ferments never got rid of that faint vomit smell. Smells I add more?
I only added less than a cup, maybe 2/3-3/4 cup.

I'll put my barrel band heater on it later today. It's all but stopped and I think it went below 80°F.
It is, but you don't get the same results. I've seen the process described as a cold mash.

Round here I can get feed grade wheat for next-to-nothing, 5€/25kg. Buying a 25kg sack of malted wheat will cost me at least 24€ before shipping. I wanted to try and make neutral from wheat, and my first attempt used high-temp enzymes. The process was long and intensive and involved manhandling boiling water and making pH adjustments and a "mash" took me at least 1 1/2 hours of actual work spread across the best part of a day. In the end I made whisky with it to justify the workload. With the Yellow Label I take water to about 50C, let the milled grains soak for an hour or so, top up with cold water to pull the temperature down to pitching temps, and dump in the yeast. Stir once a day for a few days and ignore it until it clears. I managed to "mash" in 2 batches in one afternoon while managing my 3 small children. The only thing I'll do differently next time is hold it at the right temperature to see if it throws off a few less bad flavours.

If I were already using malts I would probably just mash in and maybe chuck in a drop of gluco-amylase if I wanted to help it ferment dry.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

FYI you can do sugarheads on the spent grains. While not as "pure" taste from the 1st batch, it ain't bad... Just need to balance/buffer pH, add some nutrients, & the remnant yeast in the trub will take off again.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

I was hoping some of the "magic" enzymes/mold in the angel yeast would survive the first fermentation. I combined roughly equal parts spent corn/fresh milled corn. 3 weeks later it didn't seem like it did much judging by smell/texture/taste.

Has anyone had success with something like this?

Like almost anything following the instructions works, two larger batches using angel recommendations sitting next to the experiment produced expected results in the usual 2 weeks.
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