No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I'll be watching with interest Zed
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

Sounds good zed, I think Jesse made a video about just that. And I agree that Angel is for ease at a small loss of efficiency. For me it's worth the small loss when working with corn.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Honest_Liberty »



Jesse covered the difference between the methods you mentioned. He's been putting together some great content
Edit: - I just noticed I was still on page 12 not 13. The link is listed above.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Probus »

Following the lead of NZChris, I made CROW mash using 5th generation of UJSSM plus 5kg corn, rye from 5th generation rye bread, wheat biscuit cereal and toasted rolled oats. The corn was blitzed with some UJSSM backset in a blender and added to a 50l Esky with about 15l boiling backset and another 25l boiling water. Next morning, the Esky was unloaded into a 120l fermenter with the remaining grains plus another 25l boiling water. 50g of Angel Starter was added the next morning and stirred as per instructions.

As others have noted, the mix liquifies quickly. Owing to travel commitments, the fermentation time was extended to 3 weeks. Two strips, each of 20l yielded 10l of low wines at 43% abv. Another 10l of wash was recovered for a spirit run.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

So, I'm thinking I'd like to make the most of my trial runs and am trying to decide the best way to showcase any pros and cons.

Fermentations:
I have 50kg of calrose rice, a shorter grain variety similar to other suitable types like sweet, glutinous and sushi rices. My thoughts on fermentation will be to do two separate batches of 25kg each. One will be using the Angel Yellow Label 'Starter of Liquor Making' product and hot water, the other a conventional cook-convert-ferment protocol with SebStar liquid enzymes. In both cases I will work at a ratio of 1kg grain to 4L water. These will be allowed to ferment to completion on the grain (obviously required for the Angel ferment and in the interests of parity so will the conventional ferment), afterwards the wine will be racked off, grains squeezed and allowed time to settle.

Stripping:
Both will be processed into low wines separately (of course) using my keg boiler in a pot still arrangement. In order to try and judge the fermentation efficiency I will collect until the combined low wines reach 30% ABV. Yield / efficiency will be determined by which ferment produces the larger volume of low wines. A 100ml foreshot will be taken each time.

Distilling:
I'd like to split each batch of low wines if possible into two distillations. One half pot stilled into a white whiskey, the other half refluxed into vodka (neutral). The end result would be two whiskys to compare and two vodkas to compare. If volumes do not allow for a half and half split, I'm thinking process into a whisky first taking my cut, then reprocess the rest into vodka. The former seems much more fair than the latter. Suggestions welcomed.

Any thoughts or recommendations?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Sideways »

Hey Zed,

I'm just finishing something similar: 50 lbs of "Homai Calrose Rice, Premium Sushi Rice" in 20 gallons of water (2.5 lbs/gal), 12 tablespoons of Angel. It fermented out in just under a week, but I let it sit a few days longer to separate solids from liquids. Ran one-and-done through CM still, full reflux to remove fores/heads very slowly (very small amount, less than a quart total), then reduced reflux to almost none for the hearts, running at a fast flow, slightly broken stream, then back to heavy reflux running slowly as tails approached. Total proof off the still was 181 (I was shooting for much lower), reduced to 80 proof for sampling white, and it has an extraordinary mouth feel, silky, buttery, soft, zero bite, with a very soft, subdued rice flavor. I am very happy.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

I've pot stilled rice wine before and I have to agree it makes a sweet drop. I'm looking to make a direct comparison between the Angel product and a more conventional approach. Goal is to see if the Angel is good enough to replace the more intensive cook-convert method.

It is nice to see the character carries over with a higher ABV output.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

Has anyone tried a sugarhead on spent grain from this Angel Yeast? I have a batch draining now of CROW bourbon.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

I don't think that fits the intended purpose of this product. The grain will be depleted of fermentables and the sugar won't benefit. This stuff is for parallel starch conversion and fermenting. I'm sure the yeast would work but you won't benefit over regular yeasts.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

rubberduck71 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:19 am Has anyone tried a sugarhead on spent grain from this Angel Yeast? I have a batch draining now of CROW bourbon.
Be the first. It should make a useful base spirit for a variety of liquors.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

rubberduck71 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:19 am Has anyone tried a sugarhead on spent grain from this Angel Yeast? I have a batch draining now of CROW bourbon.
Got a couple of batches fermenting right now.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

Good deal sweeps. Let us know how they turn out!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad »

I have done several batches of UJSSM using the corn left after an Angel Yellow ferment.
The corn, while having surrendered its starches to the Angel Yellow yeast, still has lots of flavouring. I treat them as gen 2 of UJSSM with backset etc but only start pulling the grey corn out on gen3. I got up to 8 gens before I restarted the whole process.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Chauncey »

Started a fresh set of barrels with COB and used all my old ujssm corn to finally start and angel ferment in a 32 gallon brute. Smells nice and kicked off quick. Will report back.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

rubberduck71 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:59 pm Good deal sweeps. Let us know how they turn out!
Still waiting on them to finish. They are much slower than the original ferments.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash »

sweeps wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:02 am Still waiting on them to finish. They are much slower than the original ferments.
Are you holding the recommended 32 degrees C? It makes a big difference with this yeast.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

Yes, but I'm talking here about the sugarheads I piggybacked on the leftovers. The original ferments all finished in about 10 - 12 days. These washes are talking at least twice as long, even though I am keeping them at the same temperature.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash »

I haven't tried a sugarhead with this yeast, but my main all-grain ferments take about 1 week. Perhaps it would be worth adding a pinch of DAP when you start the second ferment?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

Maybe. The ferments have seemed vigorous enough, they just seem to be taking a while.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Bryan1 »

Well with a long weekend here grabbed a new bottle of gas from the big green shed and stripped down my still from the last spirit run to just 4 plates. As I did that corn/malted barely that went wrong in my mash tun I just added some angel yeast and it's like the corn is is fully finished and cleared so decided to transfer the wash into the boiler. I tried my magnetic pump but as it has a zero head suction it was useless so went to using my 2 litre beaker and I transferred it into a BIAB bag where every time I was squeezing I was kicking myself for not finishing my wine press. After all the liquid was out I looked in the boiler and was only 1/2 full so the I found one beaker full then squeeze rinse and repeat and when I got to the last squeeze I looked in the boiler and it was close to a full charge.

Now instead of stripping I'm just going to do each run over 4 plates and get 90% then I can have a sample and see how each angel yeast ferment is going. Now also it will be interesting to see the yield as after the 2 runs this weekend and the output will give me a good idea on how many ferments to do and 4 plate runs to get a full boiler charge of blends.
Once the all corn run is done I'll put another one down as I do have 11 kg's of corn left and I do need to put down a all barely ferment so that will go in my other fermenter. Now finding rye has been a big problem so last resort is the health shop and see just how much a kg of fresh grain is. I do reckon 5kg's should be enough for a 30 litre ferment as the percentage of rye need is small I reckon a 30 litre ferment will be the go. As the health shop is right next to the fodder store I'll grab a 20 sack of barely first and ask if they have any rye but I doubt it.

A mate at the bottleshop who really likes my stuff has been on the lookout for rye and he said only one guy he has found is selling it and it's by the ton no 20 kg sacks.

I do reckon with that one bag of angel yeast will do enough for a full 50 litre spirit run so I'll leave until it's ready after aging and with the amount I will get from the spirit run I'm thinking of buying my first barrel to age it. I do have enough 2 and 5 litre demi to hold the amount so that will give me a guide to the size of the barrel.

Cheers Bryan
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

So, I decided rather than going balls deep on a couple big batches I'd scale back to a couple smaller ones to test things out before ramping up.

Started a 5kg rice + 20L water batch last night in one of my smaller beer fermenters. Just used water as hot as possible out of the tap (60C+) and allowed to cool to 35C and pitched 0.6% 'Of Stuff' (30g). Wrapped up and gave some supplemental heat, maintaining 30C as of this morning. Gave it a stir per some directions floating around here this morning (stir twice a day for three days) and it is definitely working away. Will keep tabs on it and put it through the small pot still when done.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

Looks like the first of my piggyback washes has finished. Will run it this week and report back.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

Day three and the initial odd smell of the Angel product has subsided and it smells very clean now. Since both the hydrometer and refractometer are of little use in tracking progression due to the parallel conversion and fermentation, I thought I'd try the vinometer. The ABV has been steadily increasing since the start of activity, now indicating 8% ABV. I'm sure it won't be an exact measurement but it is showing the trend. Pretty pleased so far.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by JakeB »

I tried to order some of this Angel Yeast yellow label when I saw it on Still it... I had no luck, only place I could find to ship to me was Ali Express, and for some reason my cc rejected. I don't want to try another card as I keep one with a small limit for just this kind of thing, don't feel safe about putting my other cards on the net. Where are you guys finding this? Anyone in Canada get their hands on any? This is something I want to try, any help finding a source would be appreciated...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

I'm in Canada and got mine from a Chinese seller shipping from Hong Kong via eBay. Bought 2 500g bricks.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by MartinCash »

Ali Express for me.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

So, now five days in and activity is slowing down. Gave a gentle stir and was really surprised at how broken down the rice has become. The ferment has been kept at a constant 30-32C since pitching the Angel 'Starter of Liquor Making' product. The SG is at 0.996, though I know this doesn't mean too much while there's any activity. The vinometer reads ~11-12% ABV, which I know is optimistic by a percent or two. This falls in line with the rice being about 80% carbohydrates (starches and sugars) and being almost fully converted.

Looks like I will be expecting this to land around 10% ABV and seems quite efficient, effective and convenient. So far it is looking like a real winner. The real truth will be in the distillation and comparing this to the next batch.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

Just finished stripping the first piggyback wash. Low wines smell very promising, will do the spirit run over the weekend.

The second of the piggyback washes finished much faster than the first. It was started off the trub of a corn/oats/barley ferment, whereas the first one was started off an all corn ferment. Not sure if that made the difference.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

sweeps wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:42 am Just finished stripping the first piggyback wash. Low wines smell very promising, will do the spirit run over the weekend.

The second of the piggyback washes finished much faster than the first. It was started off the trub of a corn/oats/barley ferment, whereas the first one was started off an all corn ferment. Not sure if that made the difference.
Ok, you sold me on the gumball/piggyback viability! Next AG batch I do, I'll follow your lead...

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

Ted said he got up to eight.

I took a little sample from the middle of the spirit run. Very UJ like, with a definite sour mash note, even though I didn't use backset. Not bad at all for fresh off the spout.
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