No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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NZChris
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

sweeps wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:42 am Just finished stripping the first piggyback wash. Low wines smell very promising, will do the spirit run over the weekend.

The second of the piggyback washes finished much faster than the first. It was started off the trub of a corn/oats/barley ferment, whereas the first one was started off an all corn ferment. Not sure if that made the difference.
Are you sure this is the right thread to be posting this in? This is a No Sugar thread and you are using sugar, so maybe what you are doing needs it's own thread. I've done the reverse and used Starter of Liquor Making on trub from UJSSM and that worked well.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by sweeps »

Duck asked a question which I answered. I don't think I have much else to say on this topic.
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zed255
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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So, just shy of the planned 2 week mark the ferment has come to a halt.

I racked the liquid off the remnants of the rice and then drained and squeezed the rice for as much liquid I could reasonably recover. I used 20L of water in the initial ferment and it looks like I essentially got it all back out. What was 5kg of dry rice at the start came out as 1.1kg of slightly damp muck, after having been squeezed out, so dried it might weigh 1kg or even less.

Assuming the rice was 80% potentially convertible starches, per the nutrition information on the package, I basically got complete utilization of the available starch in the rice. If it were a sugar wash, it would have been 4kg of sugar in 20L water for an SG of 1.068 and an final ABV of 10.5%. The only measure I can make at this time is with a vinometer, which I know is a little optimistic, and it shows around 13%. The numbers line up given known inaccuracies and educated guesses involved.

I don't think this will clear like my prior use of rice with a conventional approach, but it won't matter in the end. Should be interesting to run this and see what it is like. Will be time to cook 5kg and convert for comparison.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Continuing on with the experiment I stripped the Angel fermented rice wine. Interestingly, I actually got closer to 21L of cleared / settled wine to run, noting I only used 20L of water to initiate the process. I suspect the added volume is just the alcohol that was produced from starch conversion. The volume of the rice remnants was much smaller than the rice volume at the start. The remaining trub had a volume of about 2L.

Based on the run and information collected during the run, the Angel product produced a wine of 10% ABV. I collected until the aggregate alcohol concentration of the collection was 30% ABV, giving me exactly (as accurate as my graduated cylinders allow) 7L of low wines. The ABV off the spout was almost 0%. Back calculating gave me a starting wine of about 10%. A correlating data point is the wine boiled at 93C, also an indication of an ABV of about 10%.

The foreshots were very mild and fruity, discarded 30ml. Overall, a very clean output considering it was a strip run. Had I taken a little more off the top and cut the run sooner it would have been very palatable as a one-and-done. I got a very similar result with my first batch of rice with liquid enzymes and gelatinization. Now I'm not even sure another run with conventional processes is even worthwhile. Anyone even following closely enough to bother?

Overall, this is good stuff. I suggest anyone wanting to try it to go do so.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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zed255 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:08 pm The volume of the rice remnants was much smaller than the rice volume at the start. The remaining trub had a volume of about 2L.
I noticed this also! The grains are much "stubbier" after fermentation than when you start. I used a medium grain rice.

My rig hasn't yet made anything that I would consider 1-and-done potential, but I have damn near 4 gal/15L of stripping runs to do a spirit run with this weekend.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Birdman85 »

Another forum I'm a part of had a user do some experiments with the yellow label and rice when it was first sort of discovered.

Just recently popped up in my idiot tube feed of the silly kiwi from still-it, doing the Angel yeast and rice ferments.

So. My question is, I've been curious about the product form an all rice no sugar run. Is it like a sake (rice wine) or is it more a vodka? And how is it drank? Is it drank straight, on rocks, mixed with soda?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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How it tastes will depend on what strain of rice you use and how you distil and choose your cuts. I used Jasmine and the best thing I can say about it is that it's inoffensive. Even though I could smell rice during all of the spirit run, when it came to choosing a heart cut, I couldn't get much rice flavor into it. Very little has been drunk as I have plenty of other products that we prefer.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I took a fairly wide cut double distilled batch (conventionally processed) of Calrose rice and found it made a nice rice whiskey. The wine is fairly bland, though tastes good enough to be drank. I think I will strip and reflux a batch for what I'd expect to be a really nice vodka.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Birdman85 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:16 pm Another forum I'm a part of had a user do some experiments with the yellow label and rice when it was first sort of discovered.

Just recently popped up in my idiot tube feed of the silly kiwi from still-it, doing the Angel yeast and rice ferments.

So. My question is, I've been curious about the product form an all rice no sugar run. Is it like a sake (rice wine) or is it more a vodka? And how is it drank? Is it drank straight, on rocks, mixed with soda?
I did a batch of Kohuko medium grain rice from Costco. The "wine" was actually very tasty! Most of it didn't make it to the stilling stage! Be warned, it's pretty strong...

I have about 4 gal/15L stripped that I hope to do a spirit run this weekend.

Any suggestions on oaking/aging from those that are reading this?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I want to start a 100l batch of this stuff. This will be my first attempt at grain And I'm worried about the temperature here in the UK ATM. In my garage it's currently only gets to about 14*c even on sunny days and at night probably get down to 7 ish.

Do you think this will be a problem? I could pitch at the top end of the recommended temp range and rap it up in blankets. Or I could use my normal 60l insulated fermenters which have 100w aquarium heaters but am also worried about the heaters scorching the grain. And I don't particularly want to stop my rum production in case this AG goes slow.

So can I use my normal fermenters with the heats? Any guidance gratefully received. Let me know whAt you would do?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Bryan1 »

With the first batch's I did with this yeast it took about 2 months to ferment out where I was happy to run it. Even after 2 months the corn ferment was still throwing bubbles up although the ferment had cleared nicely.

Now even when I do TPW ferments they take a couple of months due to the overnight temps so like everything with hobby just hurry up and wait and let things progress.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Id say its going to struggle at those temps.
The first one I did had to fend for its self temp wise.
Subsequent washes have been kept at 32C and seem to have been much happier.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Thanks guys that's what I thought. I wasn't sure if the yeast and enzyme activity would produce enough heat to maintain temps.

Do you think the aquarium heater would cause scorching issues?

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

This stuff likes 30-ish*C. I suspect it would take a loooong time at low temperatures. With good insulation it doesn't take a lot of heat input to keep a ferment warm. I did a 200+L sugar wash in my basement and ~45W of external heat (between the barrel and blankets) actually overheated my wash because it turned then on too soon.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

For what it's worth, looks like my recent ferments with rice & CROW bourbon have been 2-3 weeks. I run my ferments in my Dining Room (also currently doubling as my COVID-work-from-home office) which runs ~70F/20.5 C.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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So has anyone actually used an aquarium or submersible heater with the yellow labeled yeast?

I'm wondering if the natural churn will be enough to keep everything moving to keep the temperature even throughout.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

It has been recommended to physically stir the fermentation periodically over the first few days to ensure the product can access the starch source. I doubt an aquarium heater would create enough circulation in the fermentation to get the same result. I'm sure such a heater would help keep the fermenter warm.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SomethingObscure »

Thanks zed. Yes I was intending to stir as recommended. But this being my first time using grain I was worried I'd end up with a warm pocket near the heater and the rest would cool.

I'll give it a go..

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

Forgot to mention: I did not pop lid to stir the first few days. Just rocked my bucket fermenter in circular motion until I "felt" the grains moving around.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RC Al »

100% stir it down the first few days, depending on the grain in use, a varying sized cap will form above the liquid level and miss being converted / fermented - I've noticed oats being very prone to this, had to keep stirring a Bents ROW down for more than a week. It dose create quite a thick "dough ball" at the bottom that just rocking isnt going to fix.

Have seen a heater put into a tall vase filled with water to act as an internal insulated heater and avoid scorching issues (thanks SBB and others :thumbup:)

There's still a lot of experimenting to be done on how much heat to use - I and a few others havent bothered heating after initial mash and have had good results, waiting on one of the guys here to run one done with just cold water and fine ground corn in few days time ( :wave: man).

Have also seen a report of using backset / lower ph getting rid of a slight sourness/astringency that they had experienced.

Oh and dont seal the fermenter - Had a Makers Mark mix blow everywhere on day 2 :roll:
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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SomethingObscure wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:22 pm So has anyone actually used an aquarium or submersible heater with the yellow labeled yeast?
I have and was also worried about dumping a fish tank heater straight into the corn / grain.
I bought a long glass vase from the local cheap shit shop and filled it with water...but some rocks in the bottom first to weigh it down, put water and the thermometer in that, added the lot to the insulated fermenter / esky.
Cost about $10 Au
You will see the way I did it at the beginning of and again at the end of this Youtube clip.
Its not the only way ....just one that suits me.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Verry cool Mate. Bain Marie from the inner side. Cool idea
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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SomethingObscure wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:22 pm So has anyone actually used an aquarium or submersible heater with the yellow labeled yeast?
I haven't, for the same reasons that I don't use them in any ferment. Heat rises, so I either control the temperature in the space they are in, stir, or heat from underneath the vessel.

Water in aquariums is circulated by pumps and air stones, so if you do use an aquarium heater, be sure to have some type of agitation organized to prevent stratification.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Really Chris? ......Id like to see you find the cold spots in one of my washes........heat rising, gas rising, bubbles bubbling........you dont think a wash agitates its self enough to keep the whole thing at one temp?
On top of that its getting a quick stir once or twice a day for the first 3- 4 days.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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I've run my hand down the side of a fermenter in winter and could tell where the bottom of the aquarium heater was.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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NZChris wrote:
SomethingObscure wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:22 pm So has anyone actually used an aquarium or submersible heater with the yellow labeled yeast?
I haven't, for the same reasons that I don't use them in any ferment. Heat rises, so I either control the temperature in the space they are in, stir, or heat from underneath the vessel.

Water in aquariums is circulated by pumps and air stones, so if you do use an aquarium heater, be sure to have some type of agitation organized to prevent stratification.

I thought that might be the case too. I've been running. 100w aquarium heaters set to their maximum temperature with an stc1000 controlling them. The aquarium heaters come with guard around them. Which I fastened the temperature probe to. The heater has suction cups which keep it fixed to the bottom of my fermenter even when I aerate the wash with a drill powered paint mixer they don't move. I've not see any real temperature change up the height of the fermenter. My fermenters are quite well insulated 60l HDPE barrels dunno if that make a difference. This setup works really well for all molasses and sugar washes but don't think there would be the same movement of liquid in an AG mash.

Saltbush Bill wrote:
SomethingObscure wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:22 pm So has anyone actually used an aquarium or submersible heater with the yellow labeled yeast?
I have and was also worried about dumping a fish tank heater straight into the corn / grain.
I bought a long glass vase from the local cheap shit shop and filled it with water...but some rocks in the bottom first to weigh it down, put water and the thermometer in that, added the lot to the insulated fermenter / esky.
Cost about $10 Au
You will see the way I did it at the beginning of and again at the end of this Youtube clip.
Its not the only way ....just one that suits me.
That's a great idea. I've found some HDPE pipe which I think I could use for the vase substitute just need to figure out how to seal the end. I might see if a mate has any food grade epoxy left to do this with..

Now in my normal over thinking mindset I need to figure out if I'll position the STC temp probe inside the tube or outside. And what temperature to set it to. I thinking 32*c and inside the tube.

Hopefully tomorrow I can start my first AG mash. Or no mash.

I've picked up 20kg micronised rolled barley and 20kg crushed oats from the feed store yesterday. I was going to go with 20kg barley and 5kg oats in a 100l mash. Or maybe another 1.5kg of oats just to be sure.

Cheers SomethingObscure
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by m0rdecai »

RC Al wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:32 pm 100% stir it down the first few days
As for this, anyone have a good tip on the most effective way to sanitize the stirring paddle? Those things are so unwieldy to submerge :roll:
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Wipe the dust or any other foreign material off with your hand.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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SomethingObscure wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:26 am My fermenters are quite well insulated 60l HDPE barrels dunno if that make a difference.
Insulation makes a lot of difference. The more heat you lose from the fermenter, the more likely it is that you will have problems with an aquarium heater.

My insulated fermenters don't usually need any heating until the ferment slows down. With this Starter, there is a very thick bed of grain to look after, so poor insulation and an aquarium heater is not something I would try, especially in winter in my shed. I have a 100W element underneath mine, but the temperature doesn't get low enough to trigger it for several days.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SomethingObscure »

silverbean wrote:So my delivery of "Starter for Liquor Making" arrived today and it included an instruction sheet. Sounds like the seller has some experience, I wonder if he is on here?
If anyone is interested I have copied the instructions below. Not sure if I should include the sellers contact so I have left it out.


Instructions for 10kg of grain

Mill grain to size to suit your usual Sparging method, generally smaller is better for maximum conversion.

Mix grain with 25-30L of hot water (Boiling hot is best), keep mixing frequently to prevent sedimentation.

Optional - Hydrate the yeast in 5-10x volume of 35C water (250-500ml for 50g).

As with normal mashing, corn requires more time at higher temperatures, the best results have been obtained by actually boiling the corn and then letting it naturally cool to pitching temperature. Leaving it wrapped in insulation longer will help achieve optimal results. We are currently exploring if a higher dose of yeast will reduce the heating/mashing requirements with corn.

After the temperature has naturally cooled to about 32C (Don't chill it, the rest time lets some of the starch break down), add 50-80g of Angel Yeast, Stir through well.

Mix twice every day in the first three days.

Control the temperature to be in the 28-36C range, the optimal fermentation temperature is around 32c, Max you should let it get to is 38C, If the mash gets below 26C consider adding insulation to your fermenter, it will work at lower temps, but the ranges mentioned are optimal for speed,

8-15 day ferments are normal with shorter and longer times possible due to local water supply, the grain used and so on. SG readings are of no use due to the co-operative way the yeast works with the enzymes over the full time of the ferment. It is finished when there is no activity for 2-3 days, a sour smell is quite normal and won't affect flavor after distillation.

Sparge and Run!

Thank you for ordering this great product from us, we are always looking for feedback for this relatively recent release, please feel free to send any questions, observations or successful recipes to enzymeking@

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1-3 packs $17ea plus Postage - $9 regular, $12 express 4-8 packs $16ea, contact us for shipping, generally $12 regular & $16 express Offer available until 15/01/21, while stocks last.
Are these still the best instructions we have?

Has anyone found better results with stirring more often or for longer. IIRC someone tried stirring for much longer but can't find the reference now. I think I also read perhaps on another forum that someone (maybe Beerswimmer) tried stirring more often for the first few days.

I've pitched 100g of yellow label after hydrating for 30 mins Into a mix of 10kg rolled micronised barley and 3kg crushed oats and topped up to about 50liters at about 32*c. 2 hours later the temp has risen to about 34*c. Will have to keep an eye on that. Air lock is bubbling gently. 1 gurgle every 1.5 or so.

Cheers SomethingObscure
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