No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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elbono
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

Follow the instructions. Here's my notes:
Corn 1 part
Hot Water 3 part
0.01 part angel

Which I believe came from this (shamelessly copied from the interwebs):
For 100kg of grain.
The finer the grind, the sooner it finishes.
Mix 100kg with 250-300kg of hot water.
Let cool naturally to about 90°F(32℃), agitating to prevent settling.
Directly add 0.5-0.8kg of the starter. Agitate.
Control the temperature to be 82-97°F (28-36℃), optimal fermentation temperature about 90°F(32℃).
Lower limit 79°F(26℃), upper limit 100°F(38℃).
Agitate twice every day in the first three days.
Ferment for 8-15 days.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Oceanwave wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:22 am So what seems to be the ideal number of grams of yellow label yeast to kilos of grain?
Instructions on the packs I have bought state a ratio of " 250-300 L water ... 500grams Yeast.....100Kg grain
My rough calculations equate that to
WATER..................YEAST.......................GRAIN
125-150L................250grams...................50kg
63-74L...................125grams...................25kg
31-37L.....................62grams...................12.5kg
15-18L.....................31grams.....................6kg
7.5-9L.....................15grams......................3kg

Nothing Ive experienced while using this yeast suggests that these ratios can be bettered by using more or less yeast / water or grain.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

I have been NOT following the instructions again, here's what I did:

Started 2 ferments normally, 10 kg ground feed store core, 40 liters 38C water each. Maintained these at 28-30C, stirred for 3 days then put under a ferm lock. These finished normally in about 2 weeks.

Experiment 1: Mixed 2.6 kg ground corn with 8.5 liters 38C water and added 2 liters of liquid that I stole from one of the normal ferments just before I sealed it, stirred for 3 days then put under a ferm lock.
Experiment 2: Mixed 2.2 kg ground corn with 11 liters trub from one of the finished normal ferments, added 38C water for total volume of 26 liters. This trub had been sitting for 3 days after I made a still run.
Experiment 3: Mixed 1.8 kg ground corn with 9 liters trub from the other normal ferment, added 38C water for total volume of 22 liters. This trub was fresh.

Maintained all the experiments at 28-31C, Experiment 1 for 3 weeks, Experiment 2 & 4 for 2 weeks. Ran all these in normal stripping runs in a simple pot still.

Experiment 1 produced 1.25 liters at 38% abv
Experiment 2 produced 1.6 liters at 30 % abv
Experiment 3 produced 1.3 liters at 25 % abv

These yields seem lower that what I normally get from angel yeast but definitely look like the magic stuff came through and did some work on the new corn in the experiments. I don't want to ferment continuously so I put the trub from the experiments in the refrigerator and will play with it in the future.

My conclusion is the experimental process needs to be improved but indicates this stuff can be reused.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Right, finished my experiment with Angel vs bakers yeast.
Did 2*25l ferments of TTFV, the Angel had a bad smell, in fact wifey referred to it as a vomit smell, and the strip run came out with a sour taste.
I also feel that the yield was a good deal lower, I know, same SG at beginning and end but I definitely got different results. I can't help but think that the Angel continues to act even after the ferment process is finished, i.e. when I left the ferments to clear, something happened. I noticed that there was a lot less trub on the Angel and it was definitively different in look, as if more of it had been consumed.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

CoogeeBoy wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:02 pm Right, finished my experiment with Angel vs bakers yeast.
Did 2*25l ferments of TTFV, the Angel had a bad smell, in fact wifey referred to it as a vomit smell, and the strip run came out with a sour taste.
I also feel that the yield was a good deal lower, I know, same SG at beginning and end but I definitely got different results. I can't help but think that the Angel continues to act even after the ferment process is finished, i.e. when I left the ferments to clear, something happened. I noticed that there was a lot less trub on the Angel and it was definitively different in look, as if more of it had been consumed.
How well did you maintain temperature around 30-33C? Reading through this, it seems the best results come when that temperature is maintained throughout. I didn't notice the vomit smell myself, but others have said if you let it sit, the smell goes away.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Coog why use this yeast in a TFFV which is essentially a sugar wash?
It's not really designed to be used that way.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:54 pm Coog why use this yeast in a TFFV which is essentially a sugar wash?
It's not really designed to be used that way.
It was a just an experiment, I wanted to see if there was any difference in the speed, yield and taste. I was doing a rice wine at the same time so I thought give it a go.
In short, you are correct and it shouldn't have been used for a sugar wash.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Oceanwave wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:57 pm
CoogeeBoy wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:02 pm Right, finished my experiment with Angel vs bakers yeast.
Did 2*25l ferments of TTFV, the Angel had a bad smell, in fact wifey referred to it as a vomit smell, and the strip run came out with a sour taste.
I also feel that the yield was a good deal lower, I know, same SG at beginning and end but I definitely got different results. I can't help but think that the Angel continues to act even after the ferment process is finished, i.e. when I left the ferments to clear, something happened. I noticed that there was a lot less trub on the Angel and it was definitively different in look, as if more of it had been consumed.
How well did you maintain temperature around 30-33C? Reading through this, it seems the best results come when that temperature is maintained throughout. I didn't notice the vomit smell myself, but others have said if you let it sit, the smell goes away.
Temperature was a constant 32-33. Smell didnt carry over to when I distilled, it just stayed with the trub.
Anyway, that is the end of Angel Yeast and sugar wash I think.
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by whiskymonster »

First time playing with this stuff, or ag tbh.

I got a 25kg bag of yellow cornmeal, split it between 4 25l fermenters and filled them up with water at 70 odd degrees from the water outlet of a couple of strip runs.

They got really thick, but with plenty of shaking and stirring no lumps. Covered them with a sheet of reflectix and an old blanket overnight and pitched angel yeast in the morning once the temperature had dropped.

I use an old aluminium infrared heater unit controlled with an stc1000 unit to keep them warm, so temperature wasnt a problem so long as i stirred twice a day to prevent stratification.

It was going like the clappers to start, fizzing like a dose of salts and the whole house smelled like corn for a day or so, then it settled down.

I dont normally use airlocks, just leave the fermenter lids loose but for a week or more it was obvious something was still happening.

After a couple of weeks, they cleared. Almost overnight the flour dropped out of suspension in all 4 vessels.

Now, i would be happy if that was where the story ended, but it doesnt.

My fermenters were still 50% full of goo.

I gave them a bit longer, probably a week or so and nothing changed. No more corn was consumed or compacted down any further, and no signs of life or activity. Out of interest i drew off a couple of pints into a bottle and added a handful of shreddies to see if the ferment started up again, and within an hour or so i saw activity. The bugs are alive and well, just sleeping through lack of food it seems.

The beer produced tastes good, definitely alcoholic and with a slight sourness as others described, just not much of it. I racked off about 60l of clear mash from 100l total, which tests negative with a starch test strip.

Is it normal to have so much trub left over? I figured my microscopic friends would have eaten more of the corn since it was finely ground and in theory at least partly gelled.

Have i failed to gell the corn and release the starch or does cornmeal just leave that much goo behind to be dealt with?

Unless anyone has a better idea, the next plan is to drain the trub as best i can, throw it into a BOP and into the oven for an hour or two to gel the rest and try again.

Any thoughts?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by RockinRockies »

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:27 pm I've got a bunch of Sweetfeed. The stuff is notorious for not being able to grind due to the molasses. I wonder how it would do if I took boiler water and let it sit for hours in a insulated cooler until it dropped to 90.

Thoughts?
I know this is a late response. I hope you find it. I've had zero issues grinding this through my 3 roller corona type mill.

This is our process and it's insanely easy:

100# sweetfeed milled
55 gallon drum with locking lid

Boil 26 gallon boiler, position to dump directly in barrel.
Close, let gel while you heat it up again. Dump in second boiling water to reach 4" under lid. Take pH. Add tsp citric acid is pH range too high for high temp alpha.
We only add 1 tsp.

Calcium chloride I think it is works great too.
After second addition and property pH range, temp will be like 178 ish. Add the high temp alpha.
Let sit overnight, when temp range hits below 140, the gluco amalyse is ready to add. The pH range needed no adjustment. Let it sit and when temp drops to 90, add a bit of DAP and bread yeast.
Take your gravity reading, should be 8.25 ish SG.

That's it. And it's done in 5 days and freaking delicious. No need to add sugar, but I like hitting 10% so we add 1/3 lb per gallon, since it's not technically all grain with the soaked molasses. It's the easiest process once you dial it in. I'm talking damn near fail proof and the drink is unmatched for white dog.
Best to let rest for 8 months bulk aged. If you can. Perfectly acceptable right away
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

whiskymonster wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:23 am
My fermenters were still 50% full of goo.

Is it normal to have so much trub left over? .

Any thoughts?
It isn't normal for me, if anything I end up with less trub than a normal mash process. Angel doesn't really need the gelatinazation but the very few times I've done it the ferment finished in less time.

I don't see any mention of stirring for the first few days. I always make sure to pull any solids off the bottom and get them in the game. If you didn't do this I think it is the cause of the 50% goo factor.

You could try adding some more water (38Cish) and another dose of angel. Make sure to stir twice a day for 3-4 days and keep the temp in range..
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

whiskymonster wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:23 am Have i failed to gell the corn and release the starch or does cornmeal just leave that much goo behind to be dealt with
Ive never found it to leave that much grain behind, I grind mine fine , but not so fine I cant squeeze out 99% of the wash using paint strainer bags.
certainly not 50% of the fermenter.
How many grams of yeast did you use in each ferment?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by whiskymonster »

Elbono:
Yeah, i was power stirring it with the drill. I didnt think temperature was a problem, but the more i think about it the less sure i am of that. There was definitely some stratification.

Bill:
Whatever it said on the packet.
30g per fermenter iirc, each one with 6.25kg cornflour made up to 25L with 70°C ish hot water
According to the destructions i think i should have been alright.

I think the microcritters are there and alive though since they responded positively to a handful of breakfast cereal.

I think whats happened is that my fermenters have stratified with all those solids, and my sticky
on thermometers have lied to me.

This evening i got a BOP and filled it with 15l or so of the goo and threw it in the oven at 150°c for a couple of hours. It has appreciably thickened up, so evidently gelatinisation was at best partial. Ill leave it in the oven to cool overnight and ill pitch again in the morning.

Still, it shouldnt need gelling according to instructions. I think i need to jerry rig some kind of continuous stirring widget to keep better temperature control. I have plenty of heat to throw at it, but the top of the fermenter definitely wasnt as warm as at the bottom.
It's much easier to cut a bit off than weld a bit on...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

Dancing4dan wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:59 am An odd experiment... OK mostly medley of mistakes and some interesting results.

I did a Golden Graham malted barley mash a few weeks ago. Date not recorded. :oops: But it was approximately a month ago. It was a S*%t show of a day for several reasons not related to the mash.

80 lb Golden Graham. 10 lb rolled oats. Approximately 32 gallons of water. Barley was fine ground through a roller mill. Course flower. The mash was done in two batches and the results added to two fermenters. I will call them A and B respectively. On the second batch (B) there was poor conversion due to low temperature, uneven split of yeast starter and a lack of Camden. Or all of the above. Ferment (B) took longer to start fermenting. Both ferment had heat belts and blankets for insulation.

Yeast was 2 Tbsp Bread yeast. 2 Tbsp DADY. 2/3 Tbsp yellow label. Rehydrated and split between both fermenters (this didn't happen to be even) . Mixing yeast strains works for me. This is the first time I added YL to the mix.

The second / slower ferment (B) finished first. When I lifted the BIAB it was obvious there was a lot of grain left that didn't get converted and fermented. Drained it all, cold crashed and did stripping run. As expected the yield was low.

I decided to do a sugar ferment on the leftover grain and Trub from (B) (Let's call this sugar head B.1). Added hot tap water at 150*F. Added 9 kg sugar. Now there is a twist. I add in the Trub from two previous Yellow label flaked corn ferments from 22-01-15 and another from 22-02-04. My assumption is there was still active yeast and possibly some enzymes remaining. This was about 2 1/2 gallons of trub that had been sitting waiting for a steam strip. :crazy: Ferment took right off.

And another twist. Two weeks ago when the first Golden Graham ferment (A) finished, I drained liquid from the sugar head (B.1) to make enough room for the BIAB from the first ferment (A) to go into what was left in the sugar head (B.1). Now there are two BIAB containing Golden Graham and oats in a full 20 gallon fermenter along with the remains of the sugar head. (I will call this :ebiggrin: B.2) Added in 1 Tbsp Yellow label. Again a heat belt and a blanket for insulation.

B.2 is vigorously fermenting one month after the grains were originally mashed and fermented. Very clean ferment. Fantastic smell of concentrated Golden Graham malt. The BIAB keeps floating up and pushing off the lid due to Co2 production. I was hoping to pull the BIAB today and cold crash but it just keeps going. Temp is holding at 96*F.

Just bought two pounds of Yellow Label yeast. Plan is to do a no mash barley next time I do barley. Will also be doing cracked corn no mash. I suspect that Yellow Label will save a lot of time and energy by avoiding a mash even using barley malts.
The above mash, ferment, and pot distill (strip and spirit run) made 22L of 129 proof and filled my new barrel :ebiggrin: in the barrel, no leaks and now to let time and oak do their job!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

I think ive got a similar situation to whiskeymonster. I made up 3 25L fermenters of 100% micronised corn which turned into a giant brick (mentioned in an earlier post of mine). I broke all that stuff up and it loosened up a lot with the yellow label.

I let it go for just about 4 weeks since i was waiting for my new still to arrive. Each fermenter is about 3/4 full of a very soupy corn mess. Rolling it in my fingers it looks like its skins and fiber mostly. Maybe some other stuff. But theres a lot of it. Im trying to wring it out right now and its goin slow. The stuff is less of a corn suspension and more of a corn slurry. It seems that theres not much substance to it, but it holds a lot of water- like half a fermenters worth will squeeze out to the size of a softball.

Really wish i had a mop wringer right about now...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by whiskymonster »

Exactly that metalking.

The cornflour slurry left after i siphoned off the clear beer is really thin. Definitely not a compacted bed as i have seen with various breakfast cereal sugarheads.


I think im coming to the conclusion many others have: corn is a bitch!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

I was just thinkin the same. Ive found its easier with little bits in the paint strainer at a time instead of fillin the thing up. Enough that you can do some good squeezin and eventually wring it out like a towel. I got the first fermenter done without too much cussing, i cant imagine doing this on a conventional mash before putting it into a fermenter.

On a more positive note, the stuff somin out of the condenser smells pretty damn good! Based on the boiler temp when it started running, it looks like it came out at 13% :wtf:

Also, im pretty happy with my new shotgun! Got some music goin, and a chair set up in front of the still to just sit and watch as i squeeze. Soo much faster than trying to strip with my little boka... Twist and squeeze some more.... This aint so bad.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by whiskymonster »

Personally im thinking that squeezing seems like too much mess and effort for the reward.

Given the choice of sacrificing a few litres of juice or being murdered in my sleep by the mrs for getting cornflour all over the place, ill pour away some of the good stuff. She did well not to have killed me during lockdown. Best not push my luck!

As always though, is if works for you then more power to you.

Assuming i can get the angel right and reduce the amount of trub, i have a 30l insulated beer barrel that is just begging to become a thumper. Seems much easier to distill on the grain than attempt to remove it. Failing that, i there is a hemispherical stainless steel sink at work that could be pressed into service as a massive buchner funnel.

Right now though the trub is too much. Id need a kilderkin as a thumper to hold it!
It's much easier to cut a bit off than weld a bit on...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

Ive just been using a pasta colander that sits in a 5g bucket. Ive found its much much faster if you down try to twist it super tight and squeeze it. Works better if you only twist it a bit to take up slack, then kind of massage/knead it. I just did a whole fermenter in about 10 minutes. First one took me damn near an hour.

If i didnt squeeze the stuff, id only have less than 15L from each 25L fermenter. Thats just too much loss.

The smells of the stripping run are giving me some inspiriation. Id like to have as much of that as i can squeeze out!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

Luckily, i have a very understanding girlfriend, or id have been smothered in my sleep long ago...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

whiskymonster wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:11 am personally im thinking that squeezing seems like too much mess and effort for the reward.
Depends how you go about it , try different ways / methods
Ive been using paint strainer bags and not wringing it out , but sort of massaging.
Sit the strainer bag on a flat surface and start rolling, pushing and kneading it around.
An old kitchen sink with bucket under to catch the resulting liquid works for me ....the flat side areas of the sink are perfect for the massaging / rolling.
Takes very little time or effort once you get the hang of it.
Sooner or later I'll get around to building a steam stripper......its been on the to do list for ages.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

First go at distilling a tapioca wash fermented using Angel is promising.

Can confirm it is prone to foaming up. The boil started to lift the top off my airstill as the puke pushed into the condenser. Added a few drops of kettle defoamer, rinsed out the condenser and resumed at partial power to good effect.

This is only the first pass, a slower than planned stripping run, but smells really nice and is surprisingly good. Has a sweetness to it and is very smooth off the hop.

Look forward to a few more ferments and a spirit run.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

Did 100 pounds of cracked corn fine ground in 40 ish gallons of hot tap water. It took on a sour / puke smell initially. As the ferment progresses that smell is decreasing. Not concerned about it as I have smelled this before using feed grade corn, even without Yellow Label. It always seems to go away either during ferment, cold crash or the distillation. Never seems to come through in product.

It is split between two fermenters. Both are wrapped up in blankets and have heat belts on. Temp is holding at about 31*C. Stirring it every day for three days as recommended.

This stuff really chews through corn. Looking forward to finding out how it does with cracked corn VS flaked corn I did earlier.

I could have used boiling water but want to see how it goes with just hot tap water.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Stonecutter »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:39 pm Did 100 pounds of cracked corn fine ground in 40 ish gallons of hot tap water. It took on a sour / puke smell initially. As the ferment progresses that smell is decreasing. Not concerned about it as I have smelled this before using feed grade corn, even without Yellow Label. It always seems to go away either during ferment, cold crash or the distillation. Never seems to come through in product.

It is split between two fermenters. Both are wrapped up in blankets and have heat belts on. Temp is holding at about 31*C. Stirring it every day for three days as recommended.

This stuff really chews through corn. Looking forward to finding out how it does with cracked corn VS flaked corn I did earlier.

I could have used boiling water but want to see how it goes with just hot tap water.
Very interested to hear your opinion with the cracked vs flaked. I’ve only ever used flaked.
You’re setting a pretty HIGH bar DFD. Completely variable setup and a sweet steamer + all corn, granted you’re using yellow label, but still man a very nice example of the possibilities.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:39 pm
This stuff really chews through corn. Looking forward to finding out how it does with cracked corn VS flaked corn I did earlier.
I was very happy with my coarsely ground corn meal (~$25 for 50# @ Restaurant Store) + angel yeast. I've annihilated the sugarhead already & trying very hard to keep my paws off the all grain aging/oaking...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Stonecutter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:19 pm
Dancing4dan wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:39 pm Did 100 pounds of cracked corn fine ground in 40 ish gallons of hot tap water. It took on a sour / puke smell initially. As the ferment progresses that smell is decreasing. Not concerned about it as I have smelled this before using feed grade corn, even without Yellow Label. It always seems to go away either during ferment, cold crash or the distillation. Never seems to come through in product.

It is split between two fermenters. Both are wrapped up in blankets and have heat belts on. Temp is holding at about 31*C. Stirring it every day for three days as recommended.

This stuff really chews through corn. Looking forward to finding out how it does with cracked corn VS flaked corn I did earlier.

I could have used boiling water but want to see how it goes with just hot tap water.
Very interested to hear your opinion with the cracked vs flaked. I’ve only ever used flaked.
You’re setting a pretty HIGH bar DFD. Completely variable setup and a sweet steamer + all corn, granted you’re using yellow label, but still man a very nice example of the possibilities.
Thanks. Had a lot of help from HD members on all of the equipment. The ferments are in BIAB and the corn is rapidly disappearing! I can stir and roll the bags all around in the fermenters with a big spoon. I tie them shut with zip ties. Definitely not 100 lb corn there now!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

rubberduck71 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:28 pm
Dancing4dan wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:39 pm
This stuff really chews through corn. Looking forward to finding out how it does with cracked corn VS flaked corn I did earlier.
I was very happy with my coarsely ground corn meal (~$25 for 50# @ Restaurant Store) + angel yeast. I've annihilated the sugarhead already & trying very hard to keep my paws off the all grain aging/oaking...
The flaked corn on yellow label has turned out to be the best product to date for me. Wish I could get flaked corn for a decent price. $110 for 50 Lb is pretty steep. So really looking forward to the cracked corn “experiment” results.
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Dancing4dan
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:39 pm Did 100 pounds of cracked corn fine ground in 40 ish gallons of hot tap water. It took on a sour / puke smell initially. As the ferment progresses that smell is decreasing. Not concerned about it as I have smelled this before using feed grade corn, even without Yellow Label. It always seems to go away either during ferment, cold crash or the distillation. Never seems to come through in product.

It is split between two fermenters. Both are wrapped up in blankets and have heat belts on. Temp is holding at about 31*C. Stirring it every day for three days as recommended.

This stuff really chews through corn. Looking forward to finding out how it does with cracked corn VS flaked corn I did earlier.

I could have used boiling water but want to see how it goes with just hot tap water.
Both ferments finished. One batch had starch on an iodine test after testing the leftover corn. RE soaked the corn after squeezing it and will repitch a tablespoon of yellow label to see what happens.

I think I had to much corn and not enough water.
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Teddysad
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Teddysad »

Just chiming in here ( as the originator of this thread)
Many refer to the yeast as Angel. Angel actually produce a huge range of yeasts for wide purposes.
This particular yeast is the Yellow Label ( denoted by a small yellow square at about 10 o’clock position on the front) along with the words starter for liquor making.
They also make an excellent bakers yeast (which was used in TFFV design) along with some great ones for us - there is a red label which is very temperature and pH tolerant ( although it does not do the starch breakdown the Yellow does), along with wine and whisk(e)y yeasts.
There are also other manufacturers of yeasts the same as Yellow label which include the enzymes etc to do that same job.
The Yellow Label is not suitable for sugar washes such as TFFV.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Teddysad wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:20 pm There are also other manufacturers of yeasts the same as Yellow label which include the enzymes etc to do that same job.
Have you tried any of those Teddy ?.......care to mention any names ?
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