Recommended grain bill per volumes?

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30xs
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Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

I am getting ready to try my first AG recipe, Booners for the lower cost to failure ratio. I was wondering if there was a thread that I haven't found that would give someone an idea of fermenter volume to grain ratios? A link would be wonderful, or lets build one here for others to reference. Since doing a no cook I don't want to have too much grain in and not be able to get my water in. I ground a 5 gallon bucket of corn and it weighed out to about 26 pounds. My fermenting barrel is 20 gallon. Using a 2 pound per gallon that would be 5 gallon (#26) plus 13 gallon of water leaving 2 gallons of headspace, correct me if there are variables that I'm missing or unaware of such as grain swelling from hydration.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by still_stirrin »

Two pounds per gallon is a good starting point, although perhaps a little low depending on your “brewhouse efficiency”. But since this is your 1st all grain mash, your efficiency would be (assumed to be) lower. So, increasing the grain ratio to 2-1/2 lb per gallon might be prudent. Your target gravity should be 1.070-1.074, or roughly a 10%ABV potential maximum. A 2-1/2 lb per gallon ratio should get you close, yet safely below 10%ABV.

If you’re attempting to do an all corn, or even a high corn ratio grainbill, you better have enzymes to assist conversion of starch to sugar. Also, you should be prepared for the “corn pudding” as it gelatinizes. It can be frustrating to work with.

In any case, good luck with your venture.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:14 am Two pounds per gallon is a good starting point, although perhaps a little low depending on your “brewhouse efficiency”. But since this is your 1st all grain mash, your efficiency would be (assumed to be) lower. So, increasing the grain ratio to 2-1/2 lb per gallon might be prudent. Your target gravity should be 1.070-1.074, or roughly a 10%ABV potential maximum. A 2-1/2 lb per gallon ratio should get you close, yet safely below 10%ABV.

If you’re attempting to do an all corn, or even a high corn ratio grainbill, you better have enzymes to assist conversion of starch to sugar. Also, you should be prepared for the “corn pudding” as it gelatinizes. It can be frustrating to work with.

In any case, good luck with your venture.
ss
Yes, I forgot to mention that I do have liquid enzymes, a cheap ph meter, and ground whole corn down to a meal/flour combination, via the good old corona. If I enjoy AG then I definitely see an electric grinder in my future. I don’t expect perfect conversion for the first few attempts.

That being said I was asking more about getting a guide for grain volumes based on fermenter size. For example:

Bucket size # Grain Gallons water
20 gallon. 30. 15

I’m pretty sure the volumes above won’t even fit, but that the whole reason for asking. Being rookie in grain having an idea before I’m adding water to too much grain to fit is what one shooting for.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 8Ball »

FWIW, I put 14.5 pounds of corn & malt into a 10 gallon fermenter with 7 gallons of water. Leaves a little headspace once the cap rises. Your 20 gallon setup should work. Keep an eye on it. You can always dip some out if needed be, but my guess is you will be okay.

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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by still_stirrin »

I’m in the middle of a mash runoff at this moment.

The 27.5 lb grainbill is:
15 lb corn (milled to a meal)
5 lb malted barley (crushed through a roller mill)
2.5 lb flaked quick oats (from the grocery store)
2.5 lb unmalted wheat (milled to a meal)
2.5 lb unmalted milo (a sorghum grain for livestock, milled to a meal)

Mashed in a 10 gallon Coleman cooler with 7 gallons of water. I first gelatinized the corn with 4 gallons of water for 3 hours in the oven set at 180*F. So, some additional water was absorbed during gelatinization. The mash tun was as full as I could get it. And the mash is relatively thick compared to a beer mash. 27.5 lb of wet grains fills the tun to the 8 or 8-1/2 gallon level.

I lauter (sparge) my mashes, so during runoff I’ve rinsed the mash with an additional 10 gallons of water. Total water used is roughly 20 gallons, but the spent grains contain about 1 quart per pound (7 gallons plus/minus). Net wort into the fermenter is 12-1/2 gallons at OG=1.065.

Better answer for you?
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

Thanks SS. I should has been clear that I was planning on fermenting on the grain. I'm hoping to eventually have some of that same liquid.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by StuNY »

30xs wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:18 pm Thanks SS. I should has been clear that I was planning on fermenting on the grain. I'm hoping to eventually have some of that same liquid.
Be sure to leave some headspace in your fermenter for the grain- it will float up to the top out of the liquid for a while until the ferment is done. I just started fermenting a batch of single malt yesterday and was thinking "I have more room in this, maybe I will increase the recipe next time"... checked this morning and the grain cap rose about 3"- pretty close to full!
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by Twisted Brick »

I mash in a 15.5gal keg with 26lbs of grain to 12gal of water/backset. My corn/wheat/rye is milled to a fine meal/flour, barley milled to beer crush. Ferment on grain in the mash keg. The corn cap rises to just below the lid level. With a 20gal fermenter you could go 15-20% more everything. I feel the finer you mill your corn the more of it stays in suspension rather than cap, leaving you more head space or more fermentables. I typically achieve 1.065-1.071 SG.

If you keep your mash within your enzyme's recommended temp and pH zones, you will achieve a good conversion rate and target gravity.

A grain bill-to-fermenter chart might be a challenge because of the variability of grinds and grain bills out there.

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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:52 pm I mash in a 15.5gal keg with 26lbs of grain to 12gal of water/backset. My corn/wheat/rye is milled to a fine meal/flour, barley milled to beer crush. Ferment on grain in the mash keg. The corn cap rises to just below the lid level. With a 20gal fermenter you could go 15-20% more everything. I feel the finer you mill your corn the more of it stays in suspension rather than cap, leaving you more head space or more fermentables. I typically achieve 1.065-1.071 SG.

If you keep your mash within your enzyme's recommended temp and pH zones, you will achieve a good conversion rate and target gravity.

A grain bill-to-fermenter chart might be a challenge because of the variability of grinds and grain bills out there.

Twisted

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I was hoping to start a thread that would give someone a place to go to get a jumping off point and give back to the information well that ive been drawing from. I do have one question. If I crack 5 pounds and grind another 5 pounds, wouldn't the basic density of the two be the same with the only real difference being the crack will be harder to hydrate an extract starches? I haven't played the all grain game yet, so there may be a few things that I haven't experienced yet that are a factor.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by cayars »

If you leave your grains bigger like cracked corn you need more contact time at high temperature. This isn't a problem for those doing step down mashing using coolers because they hold the heat really well. If you were heating on the stove, holding temperature you would want a finer ground to save you energy costs.

I push about 3 to 1 grain to water when I mash because I lauter. Using a 10 gallon drink cooler about 7 gallons of near boiling water and 16.8 lbs corn, 3.6 lbs rye, 3.6 lbs malted barley. I then sparge the grains with warm water and then sparge again. This goes into the fermenter.

Then I'll sparge the grains again to get any remaining sugars from them and use this for my next batch of strike water and it's usually 1.025. I like doing it this way as I have no grains to deal with after fermenting and the fermenter is all liquid. Even though the mash ton is only 10 gallons I produce more than this in liquid for each batch because of the sparge water.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by Twisted Brick »

30xs wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:13 pm
If I crack 5 pounds and grind another 5 pounds, wouldn't the basic density of the two be the same with the only real difference being the crack will be harder to hydrate an extract starches?
I would think the densities of different corn sizes would contribute directly to a mash's ability to gelatinize and saccharify the starch in the corn.

From my reading, starch undergoes structural changes in water at different rates depending on time and temperature. But given optimal mash conditions, smaller starch granules hydrolize faster than larger ones. Here is an example that illustrates this in a distillery. When I changed from corona-ground cracked corn to a fine meal/flour my conversion times were reduced and my SG's went from 1.06 to roughly 1.065.

When new distillers using cracked corn complain of lower-than-expected SG's or incomplete conversion, I believe it is because they did not employ the extended mash times required.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 pm
30xs wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:13 pm
If I crack 5 pounds and grind another 5 pounds, wouldn't the basic density of the two be the same with the only real difference being the crack will be harder to hydrate an extract starches?
I would think the densities of different corn sizes would contribute directly to a mash's ability to gelatinize and saccharify the starch in the corn.

From my reading, starch undergoes structural changes in water at different rates depending on time and temperature. But given optimal mash conditions, smaller starch granules hydrolize faster than larger ones. Here is an example that illustrates this in a distillery. When I changed from corona-ground cracked corn to a fine meal/flour my conversion times were reduced and my SG's went from 1.06 to roughly 1.065.

When new distillers using cracked corn complain of lower-than-expected SG's or incomplete conversion, I believe it is because they did not employ the extended mash times required.
Yes, I agree that everything I have read says that it’s easier to get good conversion from a finer grind. My question was for building a mash chart. For example

Fine grind to meal I get #26 in a five gallon bucket add 13 gallon water that’s 18 gallon volume.

Course cracked may take six gallon and have airspace that the same 13 gallon makes the same 18 gallon after saturation, but a cost of a lower yield.

I will be grinding for good conversion, I was hoping to try to gather info and put together a chart to help others trying the grain battle.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by Twisted Brick »

Ah, gotcha. I'm no help here. All I can offer is the description in my previous post, that a 58l keg will just accommodate 12.5gal of water/backset and 26lbs of fine-milled grain.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by Vintage »

I think your original question was how much grains+water takes up volume wise so you know it will all fit in the fermentor you have on hand. You can't measure the volume of grains in a bucket and add it to gallons of water to get the right total volume because the water fills in the tiny spaces between the grains. Though nothing really wrong with that method, you'll just end up with a bigger bucket than necessary, or less product than you could have had. Some online calculators give you the answer. I've used buildabeer, because I had the same question, and it seems like I get the right answer. Just pay attention to the color of the words for the unit of measure.

http://www.buildabeer.org/beerquickcalc.php
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

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Vintage wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:15 pm I think your original question was how much grains+water takes up volume wise so you know it will all fit in the fermentor you have on hand. You can't measure the volume of grains in a bucket and add it to gallons of water to get the right total volume because the water fills in the tiny spaces between the grains. Though nothing really wrong with that method, you'll just end up with a bigger bucket than necessary, or less product than you could have had. Some online calculators give you the answer. I've used buildabeer, because I had the same question, and it seems like I get the right answer. Just pay attention to the color of the words for the unit of measure.

http://www.buildabeer.org/beerquickcalc.php
Thanks. I just mixed up a couple fermenters. looks roughly like 1.054 and 1.06 respectively. Looking at the headspace that I have using 15 gallon of water in a 20 gallon fermenter I believe I could have done 17-17.5 gallon and 34-35 pounds of corn. I'll have enough to get a taste and see if an electric grinder is in my future.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by still_stirrin »

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 4381518073

30xs, if you can afford the investment, this one is a winner. Plenty of power for corn and very durable. And you can adjust the grind from a coarse crack to a fine meal, almost to a flour.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:28 am https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 4381518073

30xs, if you can afford the investment, this one is a winner. Plenty of power for corn and very durable. And you can adjust the grind from a coarse crack to a fine meal, almost to a flour.
ss
I was looking at this one. https://www.agristoreusa.com/products/e ... in-grinder You're option is a bit cheaper. What is the throughput? The one I was looking at claims #50 corn in 7 minutes. Having the attached catch can should cut down on dust as well.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

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30xs wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:39 pmI was looking at this one. https://www.agristoreusa.com/products/e ... in-grinder You're option is a bit cheaper. What is the throughput? The one I was looking at claims #50 corn in 7 minutes. Having the attached catch can should cut down on dust as well.
Is throughput really that important? I guess it would be if you’re trying to grind for commercial purposes. My mill will grind 15 lb of corn in about 7-8 minutes. That’s how much corn I use per 12 gallon batch of bourbon. There is a slide gate that regulates the grain feed speed, so you can adjust it to get the most consistent grind.

It does get a little dusty, so I mill in the garage...not where I ferment. I catch the milled grains in a 5 gallon bucket with a cardboard lid cut to fit the mill head. It helps with the dust, but still it isn’t perfect, nor is it a “deal breaker”. It is very solid (not plastic) and the prime mover (motor) is plenty strong for corn, even whole field corn.

It is much better than hand cranking a Corona/Victoria mill. And it is built to last. So, I look at it as an investment into this hobby. I built my stillheads but I bought this grain mill. I’d recommend this mill to any all grain corn brewer....it works great. But I still use my Schmidling twin roller mill for crushing malted barley. I could run it through this mill, but I prefer the barley husks to be crushed rather than powdered.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:04 pm
30xs wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:39 pmI was looking at this one. https://www.agristoreusa.com/products/e ... in-grinder You're option is a bit cheaper. What is the throughput? The one I was looking at claims #50 corn in 7 minutes. Having the attached catch can should cut down on dust as well.
Is throughput really that important? I guess it would be if you’re trying to grind for commercial purposes. My mill will grind 15 lb of corn in about 7-8 minutes. That’s how much corn I use per 12 gallon batch of bourbon. There is a slide gate that regulates the grain feed speed, so you can adjust it to get the most consistent grind.

It does get a little dusty, so I mill in the garage...not where I ferment. I catch the milled grains in a 5 gallon bucket with a cardboard lid cut to fit the mill head. It helps with the dust, but still it isn’t perfect, nor is it a “deal breaker”. It is very solid (not plastic) and the prime mover (motor) is plenty strong for corn, even whole field corn.

It is much better than hand cranking a Corona/Victoria mill. And it is built to last. So, I look at it as an investment into this hobby. I built my stillheads but I bought this grain mill. I’d recommend this mill to any all grain corn brewer....it works great. But I still use my Schmidling twin roller mill for crushing malted barley. I could run it through this mill, but I prefer the barley husks to be crushed rather than powdered.
ss
No commercial grinding for me, just had numbers from product reviews. I've been mashing in two 20 gallon barrels each time I ferment so that I have enough for a couple strips and a strip/wash run. For this first attempt it ran #64 of whole corn to meal/flour through a Corona mill. I figured the 13 gallon hopper and a 10 minute grinding session sounded like a decent plan.

I will be grinding outside the basement door to minimize dust, even with the catch tub. Were your times from whole, or cracked? I had been buying whole just because of a potentially cleaner, and fresher ingredient, probably not necessary.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by still_stirrin »

I use corn from the field produced by my cousins. It was whole corn at roughly 10% moisture...so, relatively dry...definitely not soft.

While the hopper on this mill holds 7-8 lb of corn, it is easy to keep it filled during the run. And it will grind away until you’re done. I would think you could easily grind a bushel (60 lb) in 25 to 30 minutes. But keep in mind that 15 lb of ground corn is about 1/2 of a 5 gallon bucket full. So, you’ll have to switch grain buckets a couple of times.

Again, I think you’d appreciate the motor power, the millhead, and adjustability of this mill. But again, I have not used the Agristore mill.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

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I'm jealous SS. I had looked a lot at that mill, but ultimately was worried of cheap parts and rust. Picked up a two roller corn miller from Crankandstein and hooked it up a cheap but torquey drill. I run dried whole corn and it takes multiple passes, at a slow feed rate. A PITA, and it cost more than your rig. Live and learn I guess.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

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DetroitDIY wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:21 pm...I had looked a lot at that mill, but ultimately was worried of cheap parts and rust. Picked up a two roller corn miller from Crankandstein and hooked it up a cheap but torquey drill. I run dried whole corn and it takes multiple passes, at a slow feed rate....
You still can...a guy has to have tools. I have a roller mill and this corn mill. It isn’t too expensive and will make grinding corn so much easier. I believe that you need the right tool for the job, so it was easy to justify the investment (no, I’m not getting a kickback from sales endorsements).

Note, it was shipped from the west coast, not China, so delivery was quick. Anyway, enough of my sales pitch.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

Post by 30xs »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:31 pm I use corn from the field produced by my cousins. It was whole corn at roughly 10% moisture...so, relatively dry...definitely not soft.

While the hopper on this mill holds 7-8 lb of corn, it is easy to keep it filled during the run. And it will grind away until you’re done. I would think you could easily grind a bushel (60 lb) in 25 to 30 minutes. But keep in mind that 15 lb of ground corn is about 1/2 of a 5 gallon bucket full. So, you’ll have to switch grain buckets a couple of times.

Again, I think you’d appreciate the motor power, the millhead, and adjustability of this mill. But again, I have not used the Agristore mill.
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I haven't used either, but your input on the one on eBay is appreciated. It's about $65 dollars cheaper than the one I was looking at. That's #650 pounds of corn. Haha. I'd have enough time to grind my corn while I was waiting for the water to warm up. You must be grinding smaller than I did. I only got about 25 pounds in a 5 gallon bucket.
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Re: Recommended grain bill per volumes?

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still_stirrin wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:01 am I first gelatinized the corn with 4 gallons of water for 3 hours in the oven set at 180*F. So, some additional water was absorbed during gelatinization. The mash tun was as full as I could get it. And the mash is relatively thick compared to a beer mash. 27.5 lb of wet grains fills the tun to the 8 or 8-1/2 gallon level.

I lauter (sparge) my mashes, so during runoff I’ve rinsed the mash with an additional 10 gallons of water. Total water used is roughly 20 gallons, but the spent grains contain about 1 quart per pound (7 gallons plus/minus). Net wort into the fermenter is 12-1/2 gallons at OG=1.065.

Better answer for you?
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A5D1A636-0067-4DE2-AB3A-E07BB6C0651B.jpeg
This gelatinization time and temp differs slightly from your special k bourbon recipe. Is that just for convenience of time or did you find a better gelatinization took place with a higher temp at a shorter time?
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