Questions for those that lauter

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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stillanoob
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Questions for those that lauter

Post by stillanoob »

Hi All,

I am getting set up to do my first all grain. I'll be doing a Honey Bear Bourbon. My plan is to lauter, mostly because that is what I used to do back when I brewed all grain and a professional distiller I know recommends it. That and dealing with mop buckets and such seems messy. I know that with corn one is begging for a stuck mash. in order to help with that I am using flaked maize (Briess), enzymes and adding some rice hulls to the grain bill ( 3-4%) and building a manifold of slit copper covered with stainless braid. I have two kegs that were converted to brew kettles that I will be using to mash with.

I am shooting for a 10 gallon or so batch for the first attempt. In my reading I see a recommendation of at least 2 quarts of water per pound of corn. Mind you, I don't think this refers to flaked maize, which is pre-gelinatized. Still, if I do that I am using about 7 gallons of water. That would leave me with about 3 gallons to sparge with. So the plan would be to get 7 gallons of water to a good rolling boil, add the corn, honey malt. When the temps hit 190 add enzymes. Stir well and periodically and wait for the temperature to fall to about 150 and then add the rest of the grain bill. Let sit until conversion is complete. Back in the day I had a RIMS machine that would recirculate and keep the wort up to temp. I no longer have that so I would let it sit, then when beginning the sparge take the first runnings and put them back on top of the grain bed until the runnings clear a bit and then start sprinkling hot sparge water on top.

Back in my brewing days (15+ years ago) I seem to remember that I could fit enough grain for a 10 gallon batch of beer in a keg. What I don't seem to remember is how much water I started with or held back for sparging. Sadly, I lost my brew log that had all of these details of hundred of gallons of beer and my memory just doesn't serve any more. I am about 1/2 way through my second read of the HBB thread and have seen no reference to a mash procedure that lauters, the recipe calls for putting all of the water in at once. Does my plan of holding back 3 gallons of sparge water seem about right?

My water is very soft and acidic (5.5 pH). I have read that alpha amylase likes 5.7 to 6 pH. Is this true of other enzymes as well? Would calcium chloride work, or perhaps gypsum? I have oyster shell and could add some to the water when heating. I plan on a sock with oyster shells for pH control during the ferment.

Is alpha amylase the best enzyme for my purposes, which is to keep the corn as loose as possible while of course helping it to convert? I also see reference to the SEBStar HTL for this purpose. Any other pro tips for lautering?
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still_stirrin
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by still_stirrin »

I lauter.

And with 50% of my grainbill being corn, it is challenging. I brew 10 gallons at a time, so my grainbill is about 23 lb. That much grain holds a lot of the mash water, so in order to rinse the grains thoroughly, I heat up 10 gallons of sparge water. My mash water is also about 10 gallons, although the grains will hold a lot of that in.

The challenge is the lautering vessel, as that will need to hold the mash plus have room for some of the sparge water. My mash tun is a Coleman cooler, 10 gallon drinking cooler capacity. I have a stainless grate at the bottom with a copper drainage grid below that. With 23 lb. of grain and mash water, the vessel is full, almost beyond capacity. So, now I have a 2nd cooler so I can split my mash between 2 vessels, essentially making a 5 gallon recipe in each vessel. I do weigh my grains separately, so in a sense, I make 2 identical mashes.

During runoff, I fill 3 carboys, a little at a time out of both mash tuns and into all 3 fermenters. This way, the ferments are well “averaged” between all 3 fermenters. It is also easier to lift 5 gallon carboys than larger fermenters, even though there is “work” to do. The process has worked well so far.

In summary, I mash with roughly 10 gallons of water into 23 lb. of grain. And I sparge with 10 gallons of water too, netting me roughly 10 gallons +/- a quart or two. With three 5 gallon fermenters, I could actually hold 12 gallons easily (with head space) although that would net a lower stating gravity (typically, 1.072-1.074). But, the ferments complete quickly usually within 3 days.

If you need more help, just PM me and I’ll follow up with you directly.
ss
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still_stirrin
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by still_stirrin »

Here’s a quick look:
4E489861-1ADD-40A1-99F0-6ED32387B207.jpeg
This is the mash tun full of a 5 grain bourbon mash. Tasty looking, huh?
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by stillanoob »

Thanks for the reply and kind offer SS. I will take you up on that. I was hoping you would chime in as when searching "lauter" on HD your name comes up. I guess not many lauter. While I will shoot you a PM, I figure we might as well have some conversation here just in case any there are any other nut-jobs out there.

OK, so full volume of water and then the same again to lauter with. That started the wheels turning and rung the bell, my memory is starting to come back to me. And of course you can't have too much sparge water, you will stop the run when the gravity of the runnings gets too low. For this run I will just discard the "small beer" runnings but in the future I may use them for a sugar head. This first run I just want to try to get the process down.

As to mash tun size, I do remember that I could fit enough grain in a 15.5 gallon keg to have a couple of inches left on top which was just enough to lauter. If I have to make a little less per batch to make it work I will do that as I have two kegs ready to go and after I get the system down I can run two batches at once. I may be better off with a little less volume anyway as my still is a nominal 12 gallons but 10 is the absolute max I should put in there, especially with the puke potential of all grain. So I may be better served by 9 gallons anyway.

So, it sounds like you have a sort of false bottom and a manifold. When you say "grid" are we talking mesh or holes? What size? That seems like a good idea, I may not be able to get that together for the first run but if I have problems I will. The backup plan if the mash gets stuck is to dump it all into a Brute and ferment on the grain.

As to enzymes, do you use any? Doing more reading it seems that 190 is too hot for alpha amylase so I am leaning to the SEBStar HTL. Any thoughts on that? Or the pH (5.5) of my water? I suppose those questions might be better for another thread.

Thanks again!
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by still_stirrin »

Stillanoob,

Check out the Special K recipe in my signature. It summarizes my mashing process.

Since field corn, raw from the farm, not pre-processed in any way, must be gelatinized to make the starch available for mashing, I gelatinize it on the stovetop adding the milled grain to a stock pot (or two) of boiling water. Likewise, I mill the unmalted wheat berries and milo kernals and add them to the corn pudding. I then put these pots into the oven set at 190*F and hold it there for a couple of hours. And yes, I use the HTL high temperature enzymes to help liquify the “pudding” to a “soup”.

When mashing malted barley only, I do step infusions to bring it up to saccharification temperature, just like when brewing a beer for drinking. But when making the bourbon, I first add the (gelatinized) corn to the mash tun, then adjust the temperature down (to about 155*F) with cool water. And then dough in the malted barley and flaked oats. Usually I’ll still have to add hot water to adjust the mash thickness. The amount of water (in total) at this time is about 10 gallons, and that includes all the water used to gelatinize the unmalted grains: corn, wheat, and milo.

Once the mash consistency is stabilized and the temperature is between 145*F to 150*F, I’ll add a little backset (a quart, or so) from a previous strip run to adjust the pH slightly and then add some gluco-amylase enzymes, cover and wait. Periodically I will stir the mash to help homogenize it. After a couple of hours, I check for conversion (iodine check). When done, then I prepare for lautering.

I have a grant, a collection vessel with a pump, that I use to recirculate the wort from the mash tun. I run the grant for 20-30 minutes to “set the bed” in the mash tun. By then, the runoff is relatively clear and ready to begin runoff to the fermenters. With a beer, I would run it into the kettle for a kettle boil. But for a distiller’s beer, I run into the fermenter(s) directly. I sparge the top of the mash tun with hot water to rinse the sugars from the grist. As you’ve noted, you can tell when you’re done by checking the SG of the runoff when it falls below 1.005, or so. You can also taste the runoff to know you’ve finished the lauter.

With the right tools, lautering a corn mash can be done. But, it is still a challenge sometimes, especially with a high corn ratio. And adding rye malt to the grainbill can also make it more “sticky”. If using rye malt, I strongly suggest mashing it through a glucan rest during your upward infusions.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by still_stirrin »

Here’s a quick look at my mash tun and the false bottom.
Stainless steel grate
Stainless steel grate
Grate details
Grate details
Copper drain grid
Copper drain grid
Mash/Lauter tun false bottom
Mash/Lauter tun false bottom
The grate holds the mass of the grist above the drain grid so it doesn’t “plug”. The fine powder that does make its way through the grate will be recirculated to the top of the grain bed until the runoff is clear. Using the grant, the drainage is gravity flow and not sucked out from direct connection to the pump.

As previously noted, I have 2 of these vessels for a 10 gallon bourbon mash with 23 lb. of grain. Like it?
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by bluedog »

I believe high temp alpha amylase actually works best in the 5.2-5.8 range. So your water should be fine. If anything I'd add a bit of acid or backset, if also using glucoamylse, as it works best 5.2-5.4. I've never understood why people wait till 190 to add the high temp, when everything is already thickening. I add it before I start heating. I think the pintoshine video most people watch, he adds it late just to show it working.

I used to brew beer professionally, have spent enough time patiently lautering, and have pretty happily been fermenting on the grain so far. However I want to do a 100% malt whiskey, and it seems to be the consensus that it's better to separate with that much husk. So I may need to build a mash tun. Hope one as nice as @still_stirrin .
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Thanks for this thread and I've got a 10g round igloo cooler mash tun setup that I've use for malts off-grain but it's been a minute. I'd like to figure out how to go bigger-on-a-budget for a full spirit runs worth of AG lautered and maybe step-mashed even. Say about 40-50 gallons or so to run three or four strips through a 16g boiler.

Following and taking notes.

Cheers!
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by dieselduo »

I bought the Anvil foundry 10.5 with pump. Sure has made life easier
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by jonnys_spirit »

For large batch I'm considering using a large blue HDPE barrel wrapped in reflectix as the mash tun and recirculating sparge wort through my boiler with a high temp mash pump or two for moving hot wort between the two vessels. Manual temp control for step mashing would be easy enough with a power controller and you could upgrade to a PID controller or something programmable and a chiller at a later date... Wouldn't want to ferment in the mash tun but could do three strips worth in one mash pretty easy as long as a grain bed that size doesn't end up sticking due to geometry and volume. On the other hand squeezing isn't that bad. I guess details matter sometimes...

Just some thoughts..

Cheers!
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by stillanoob »

Bluedog, I ended up ordering the SEBStar HTL which is a high temp amylase. They say good to 190 degrees F. Just to be sure, the SEBStar HTL will break down the starch to dextrins and then the grain malt enzymes can break this down into sugars, correct?

Johnny, I used a round Igloo cooler for beer and eventually the inner lining warped. This was many years ago so they may be different now.

SS, thanks for the pics. I am starting with just the manifold, similar to yours but covered in stainless braid. The braid will let me have slots on the top and sides and increase the manifold area. I am going to go up to the junk pile today and see if I can find something to make a false bottom as well.

It is tempting to order a high temp pump so I can recirculate. However, I have been plenty pissed off at pumps in brewing on quite a few occasion. You need the right amount of suction, too much can compact the grain bed, too little and no flow. I think I will try just a bit of manual recirc and see if that suffices. A pump would be handy for other things too I guess. Out of curiosity, what pump do you use SS?

Diesel, that looks pretty similar to SS's false bottom/manifold combo. Do you mash corn and lauter in your anvil? If so, care to share your procedure?
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by bluedog »

Yes, as long as you use enough malted barley you won't need any other enzymes.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by still_stirrin »

Tips for a wort grant:
http://www.fullstackbrewing.com/2016/12 ... e-a-grant/

Operation:



A great tool for your brewery.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by stillanoob »

Howdy All,

Well, it is starting to come together. After seeing SS's set up I decided to go with a false bottom and a manifold. Yes, I am a belt and suspenders guy. I also keep duct tape handy even when I am wearing both. SS also saved me some time and trouble by pointing out that I could buy a false bottom for my keg instead of making one. That hadn't even occurred to me, I was up in my junkyard looking for something to make one out of. Anyway, I ended up buying this:
20201217_141746_resized.jpg
I also found a neat manifold at morebeer. It is a stainless spring. I dunno if it is going to work worth a crap but it sure is neato.
20201217_143211_resized.jpg
20201217_143231_resized.jpg
I cut a hole in the false bottom and everything fits under it. I am going to get one of those flexible copper or stainless hot water heater connectors to go between the manifold and the nipple welded into the keg.

I would have tried the mash this week but I was in close contact with a covid infected person. No symptoms yet but I haven't got my test results yet and am under quarantine. Oddly, my still buddy said we should put it off until next week. So with any luck I will do my first mash on Christmas eve. Merry Christmas to me!
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by Up in the Shed »

Im really interested in how you make out with this. As an all grain brewer, I too am determined to try lautering. I have no problem fermenting on the grain. However the convenience of having a nice clean wash in the fermentor can make the distilling steps so much easier. I have lautered barley mashes with rice and flaked corn many times, with no problems. I have a 20 gallon Spike Mashtun with a false bottom.... and I have matching 20 gallon Hot Liquour tank and boil kettles, and I can recirculate. Id like to see how much cracked corn I can incorporate into a recipe, with rice hulls and patience, and still be able to recirculate and lauter. I may have a few messes along the way.... but will be a fun learning curve
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by SaltyStaves »

Up in the Shed wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:18 am and I have matching 20 gallon Hot Liquour tank and boil kettles, and I can recirculate. Id like to see how much cracked corn I can incorporate into a recipe, with rice hulls and patience, and still be able to recirculate and lauter. I may have a few messes along the way.... but will be a fun learning curve
Keep us posted. I have a similar setup and haven't been brave enough to try anything but crushed barley with it.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by brewer24 »

Up in the Shed wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:18 am Im really interested in how you make out with this. As an all grain brewer, I too am determined to try lautering. I have no problem fermenting on the grain. However the convenience of having a nice clean wash in the fermentor can make the distilling steps so much easier. I have lautered barley mashes with rice and flaked corn many times, with no problems. I have a 20 gallon Spike Mashtun with a false bottom.... and I have matching 20 gallon Hot Liquour tank and boil kettles, and I can recirculate. Id like to see how much cracked corn I can incorporate into a recipe, with rice hulls and patience, and still be able to recirculate and lauter. I may have a few messes along the way.... but will be a fun learning curve
My last round of whisky mashes what I've done is let it ferment a day or two on the grain in my mash/lauter tun, then drain off into bucket and let those settle for a week or so. I should get most of the benefits of continual conversion of starches, and the yeast will carry over with the beer/wort into the bucket and continue to finish up fermenting. The fine particles settle to the bottom and I pour carefully into my brew kettle to distill. Seems like the best of both worlds, and I get to remove the 20 lbs of rotting grain from my house a bit sooner.

My mash/lauter tun uses a grain bag above a "bazooka" style mesh tube filters, I made a 51/49 corn/barley bourbon recipe and it worked well enough. It was 2 years ago now so I can't recall specifics. I took a long break and just did beer for the last few years, and now I'm mostly using barley and rye these days to make a Canadian style whisky.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by Up in the Shed »

Hey So I recently did a all grain corn/ barley mash and lautered. It was my first attempt, so my efficiency was pretty good, but missed my final gravity because I simply ended up with about 20l too much wash.

I used around 32 lbs cracked corn, ran through my grain mill... mashed in with boiling water, stirred and got to about 180. I also added 1/2lb of rice hulls and a couple lbs of sacrificial 2 row in the event it would keep it thin. Began to recirculate immediately and the temp went up to around 200. After about 30 mins I heard my pump begin to cavitate, so shut it down.... was getting too thick to recirculate, as I expected. wrapped it up and it sat for 90 mins total mash.... cooled with some cold water to 154, added 12lbs 2 row, stirred and recirculated again for an hour or slightly better with temp at 146 entire time... no stuck mash.

Drained and sparged, and went perfect. I think my efficiency was about 70%.
Chilled, pitched bakers, and dried out to 1.00 in about 5 days. Chilled for 24 hours and it was very clear into the boiler.

My thoughts on the process.... It was pretty easy, and think doing it the 2nd time will be easier again, knowing what to expect with the volumes I was working with. I think had I cooled to 154 instead of adding water to get it down, I may have faired a little better.

So now Ive done it both ways.... On the grain, off the grain. FOR ME.... I will only do it off the grain from here on out... simply because I have excellent equipment to lauter it correctly. And FOR ME.... I hated trying to squeeze and clear it after it was fermented.

Hope this helps anyone who would like to lauter using all grain beer equipment. It can be done. Do what YOU like. :)
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by stillanoob »

Up, how much water did you start with for the corn? I may get a pump to recirculate with but I am hoping to avoid it. I had a very fancy RIMS system I built for beer way back and I hated when a pump would act up, leaving me %&#* on brew day. What pump do you use?

My still buddy couldn't make it this week so I went ahead and run the beer we had. I had racked it last week and it had cleared well. The strip went well with no puke. I used 25 drops of fermcap so that was probably why. The low wines tasted very good except for a very yeasty after taste that I really didn't like. I wonder if that might be from using an aquarium heater fermenting on the grain. I would expect very uneven heat distribution like that. One way or the other I need to get rid of that flavor, I really hate it and I am sure it is going to carry through on the spirit run.

On the good side, our conversion must have been pretty good as I got 2 gallons of 38% and was still running at 10%. I haven't done the math but that is good for the grain bill I think.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by Up in the Shed »

Im not sure on the water. I used a Beersmith to calculate it for me.... but I had to calculate with Flaked Corn instead of ground cracked corn.....

I agree on the Pumps occasionally acting up....but I haven't had a brew day ruined. I have a 3 kettle, 20 gallon beer system with 2 pumps. Way over kill for just distilling but I have it. I use the cheaper Chinese r-15 pumps with the stainless heads... No problem. I did ruin one impeller though when I was recirculated a boiling beer with orange peel and clogged the impeller and it ran that way for an hour before I noticed. Pump works fine but he impeller became slightly swollen from the heat it seems.

Ive never had a yeasty taste myself, and I don't usually let it clear too much. I have a dedicated small room set to fermentation temps to ferment in and its pretty fool proof. I did find that the on the grain ferment I did was much more flavourful.... but not yeasty.... and not necessarily better then off the grain... just more of it.

I did puke on my last run... To full to fast. lol. no worries. I was still collecting forshots in First quart jar... let it settle out and dumped jar, and was clear for rest of run
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by OldSmitty »

What about using BIAB inside a cooler instead of the screened false bottom?

I wouldn't recommend fly sparging with this method since the bag would promote channeling on the side, but you could batch sparge. Also stuck sparges are less of a problem since you can always pull the bag, hang, and squeeze as a backup plan.

Does anyone do this? I've brewed beer this way (mostly barley) and was hoping that a corn/wheat dominating mash would be doable.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by stillanoob »

We are going to take another shot at it today. I do have a brew bag but how does one stir effectively in a brew bag?

We'll see how it goes. I have the Sebstar GL to use this time.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by still_stirrin »

stillanoob wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:40 amI do have a brew bag but how does one stir effectively in a brew bag?
I’ve used paint strainer bags before, not “brew bags”.

I mashed the grains in the tun (without bags) until the mash was converted. Then, scooped the grains into the bags for lautering.

Sure, kinda’ sloppy...but heck, I told you it was work, right? No “easy way” around it.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by stillanoob »

But... But... I thought this was the fast, easy road to cheap liquor?!

I think we will try lautering without the bag and then if that fails brew bag it.
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Re: Questions for those that lauter

Post by OldSmitty »

My brew bag is made to fit my round 10 gallon cooler. It fits pretty well. I stir using a comically large stainless steel whisk. If you stir in a circle, the bag might twist a bit. I use mostly an up and down jabbing motion that works well on the beer side. My outlet inside the tun is an elbow with a hose barb to reduce deadspace, so I have to mind it while stirring as to not rip a hole in the bag.

Please take my suggestions with a big grain of salt. I have yet to do a corn mash. I will probably give it a try in a month or so based on my expected production schedule. I'll be sure take pics and make a post to document my successes, frustrations, and/or failures.
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