Slow or Fast Ferment Question

[Tabucowboy]

I have tried searching slow or fast ferment but get either how fast it went or questions on why is it going slow.

Just a general question on what you prefer.

Do you prefer a slow or fast ferment and why?

I am thinking a slow ferment will cause less off flavors, because you are not stressing the yeast.

Are their recipes you would want a fast ferment?

[StillerBoy]

Can you explain what you see as a fast ferment and how it can be done.. and vera a slow ferment mean and how it can be done..

Cause, in my experence, there is no such thing as a fast or slow ferment.. what there is a properly structured recipe and ferment which provide a healthy fermentation environment for the yeast to do their job.. or a shity structured recipe and environment that the yeast take forever to ferment out..

Mars

[Saltbush Bill]

Speed of ferment will be dictated by temperature to a large degree, different yeasts like different temps.
Things like EC1118 are slower fermenting yeasts ,its optimum fermentation temperature is between 14 – 18 °C
however it can tolerate temps up to 30c and as low as 7c some say.
On the other hand bread yeast likes it warm....warmer than 30c and its happy.....at 7c it would be be doing very little if anything at all. Your question is hard to answer without being more specific.....there are to many variables and to many yeasts. Other factors can also dictate ferment speed.

[cranky]

My personal preference is for cold and slow, I feel it gives me better results but I mostly do fruit and I've read that a fast ferment can "blow a lot of flavor out the airlock". I also generally let mine sit for what some would considerable time after fermenting because in my experience something magical happens to it.

I can't tell you much about whiskey mashes.

[Twisted Brick]

My personal preference is for cold and slow, I feel it gives me better results but I mostly do fruit and I've read that a fast ferment can "blow a lot of flavor out the airlock". I also generally let mine sit for what some would considerable time after fermenting because in my experience something magical happens to it.

I can't tell you much about whiskey mashes.

+1

I primarily distill AG whiskeys and love the results I get from ale yeasts requiring cooler temperatures, which necessarily take longer to ferment. After proper (1-2yrs) aging, the layers of complexity from slow ferments are amazing. My spirits don’t achieve the same depth of flavor from shorter, higher-temp ferments. I’m not in a hurry to get product-to-bottle, and take as much time fermenting, resting and clearing as needed to get a polished final spirit.

[Tabucowboy]

StillerBoy, Ok Let me clarify my question. You are correct, not to clear in my first post.

I mainly use Bakers Yeast. Bakers Yeast ferment temps are mainly from 65-95F (19-35C), from different recipe posts on this site.

I work very hard to make sure my yeast is happy, ie: Nutrients, PH and not to high ABV.

So I guess the main thing I am asking about is changing temps. Is it preferable to ferment these main categories at a high or lower temp.

The reason I am asking , is I just got 2 new 30 gal fermenters with airlocks and have added temp controls to them.
In the past my fermentation temp was always 68F (20C) because that is what my basement is year around.
So now I want to start playing with fermenting temps, I am looking for a good starting temps based on others findings.

Main Categories ( I know these are not all of them just the ones I am starting with. Looking to see if I should start with higher temps or lower temps)
I am putting what I temp I am guessing and why. Also want to see if my guesstimates are correct.

Sugar wash - Lower Temp (68-72F)to keep out off tastes.
AG Whiskey, Bourbon...etc - Higher Temp (92-94F) to pull through Grain tastes.
LME Whiskey, Bourbon - Med Temp (80-85F) Grain taste will come through with LME
Molasses Rum - Higher Temp (92-94F) to pull through rum taste and oils.
Molasses/Sugar Rum - Higher Temp (92-94F) to pull through rum taste and oils.

All of fruit Brandies are done with E1118 always at a low temp to not blow out the fruit taste through the airlock.

Also if there are some of the above that you think, I should not use Bakers Yeast or E1118?
What is your suggestions for better taste?
No judgement from me.
I figure we are all like Doctors, they practice medicine. We practice distilling because their is never an exact answer, it always depends.

[StillerBoy]

The reason I am asking , is I just got 2 new 30 gal fermenters with airlocks and have added temp controls to them.
In the past my fermentation temp was always 68F (20C) because that is what my basement is year around.
So now I want to start playing with fermenting temps, I am looking for a good starting temps based on others findings.

Fermenting temperature is govern by the yeast being used.. and the amount of time it they to ferment out is govern by the temp selected within the range.. manufacturer of each yeast they make have established their yeast fermenting range... that is always my starting point.. from there I like to pitching the yeast at it's high end range end, and ferment at it's mid range.. bread yeast work best at a stable 85 - 87*F and pitched at 95*, and below 83*F it will take forever to finish dry and will not clear well also.. ale yeast work a lower range.. 1118 has a very wide range.. best around 70 - 72*F but will at lower and higher temps..

Pitching temp, and a stable temp range used will determine the determine the fermentation period.. lower - longer.. higher - faster.. then there is also nutrients and acidic level to factor in.. if those are off the fermentation time will change.. so a good log of the recipe being used is very important to establish a base..

Experiment I've done bread yeast and sugar wash, indicate that there is not much of a different in finished product, vera a 3 day or 7 days.. what I did notice was that once finished the 3 day cleared much faster than the 7 day ones.. and that is helpful in cycling of batches..

Having stated that, the yeast will ferment within the whole of the range that the manufacturer stated it would.. but main thing or point of attention that yeast needs the most, is a stable fermenting temp once it has propagated.. depending on what a person desire the yeast to do for you, one select the temp within the range that they want the fermentation to take place, and maintain that temp stable until it finished.. and if want to experiment with what is called secondary fermentation, once finished, rack it off its lee/trub, carboy it with an airlock.. it will continue to very slowly ferment, but its not about making alcohol at that stage, its about creating a different flavor profile..

Three things one needs to pay attention to in creating a recipe.. ingredients use and amounts, acidic levels at start and within the first 24 hrs, and a stable fermenting temperature determine by the yeast being used.. have any one of those three out of line, and the fermentation will be prolong, and to a point of stalling out or not finishing dry.. which now develop other issues..

Mars

[JesseMarques]

I let it ferment warm because I'm dealing with a large volume and is hot where I live, and I'm mostly doing rums anyway

[jfbigham73]

I'm glad somebody asked this. Here in Texas during the summer, my ferments were running hot and fast. Since it has cooled down, though, they have slowed down significantly. With the cooler temps came a very unpleasant smell, think eggs or farts. I have recently acquired aquarium heaters for my fermenters that seems to have cured this. Just wondering if any one else has experienced this.
FYI the fart smells happened with both AG and sugar washes with DADY yeast.

[SassyFrass]

Yeast seem to take the time they need, and need the time they take. All we can do is try to make them happy so they do a better job. JMO
SF

[StillerBoy]

Yeast seem to take the time they need, and need the time they take

Only if one is not mindful of the fermenting temperature used for the yeast used.. mid range will be done much sooner than the low end range.. also a stable fermenting temp is required on whatever temp range used, and any fluctuation in the fermenting temp and the yeast will take their sweet time.. no matter is low end, mid range or high end range..

That's a major issue with most people, they are careless with their fermenting temp.. just one degree variation in fluctuation will cause the yeast to behave differently by taking extra time..

Mars

[Tabucowboy]

Mars,

Thank you very much that gave me a lot of help on where to start and some things to look for I was not thinking of.
All of you are awesome, I don't do this to make drinks. I do it to play, the alcohol is a nice by-product.

My kids think I am crazy, I will do something until I have the process down then stop.
A few things I have done that with Candy making, Teardrop Trailer building (Built 3 before I felt comfortable), Furniture building (BDSM Type), Aquaponics, and Bar Owner. The only two I ended with a profit were Bar Owner and Furniture building.

[cranky]

Experiment I've done bread yeast and sugar wash, indicate that there is not much of a different in finished product, vera a 3 day or 7 days.. what I did notice was that once finished the 3 day cleared much faster than the 7 day ones..

We obviously have different definitions of "slow" and "fast"

To me anything less than a month is considered fast. I wouldn't consider 4 days a difference, nor would I ever under any circumstances consider anything finished in only 3 even if it has slowed and is reading as if it were finished. Of course that's just me, some people seem to think they need a lot more than I do but I also have space and a lot of fermenters.

[StillerBoy]

We obviously have different definitions of "slow" and "fast"

To me anything less than a month is considered fast. I wouldn't consider 4 days a difference, nor would I ever under any circumstances consider anything finished in only 3 even if it has slowed and is reading as if it were finished.

Cranky.. there's two fermenting stage, the primary and secondary.. the primary stage is just alcohol making, and secondary stage is flavor profile, which is used in the wine making.. so when making a sugar wash, the propose is really to make a flavor less product, therefore no need for a flavor profile stage..

In this hobby the secondary is not used all that much, but there are few who do with their AG.. for sugar wash there is no value to doing secondary.. you on the hand are mainly fruit making which is wine making.. two totally different process of making a finish product.. with fruit, doing a secondary stage will / could be a great benefit in the finish product.. and the secondary stage needs to be off its lee, done under air lock with no air space between air lock and liquid..

Mars

[cranky]

We obviously have different definitions of "slow" and "fast"

To me anything less than a month is considered fast. I wouldn't consider 4 days a difference, nor would I ever under any circumstances consider anything finished in only 3 even if it has slowed and is reading as if it were finished.

Cranky.. there's two fermenting stage, the primary and secondary.. the primary stage is just alcohol making, and secondary stage is flavor profile, which is used in the wine making.. so when making a sugar wash, the propose is really to make a flavor less product, therefore no need for a flavor profile stage..

In this hobby the secondary is not used all that much, but there are few who do with their AG.. for sugar wash there is no value to doing secondary.. you on the hand are mainly fruit making which is wine making.. two totally different process of making a finish product.. with fruit, doing a secondary stage will / could be a great benefit in the finish product.. and the secondary stage needs to be off its lee, done under air lock with no air space between air lock and liquid..

Mars

I disagree, I also make neutral on occasion and even on a sugar wash there is a change around the 60 day point that I feel gives me a far superior final product than rushing through and doing everything as fast as I can.

[Corsaire]

It depends.

If I want a clean spirit, to use in gins or liqueurs, I'll take good care of my yeast and the ferment will go fast.

If I'm running flavored stuff I don't care how long it takes. I find letting them go slower increases depth of flavor, but I'll try to keep the yeast in its happy temp range. A little lacto makes me happy.

To each their own of course.

[Twisted Brick]

If I'm running flavored stuff I don't care how long it takes. I find letting them go slower increases depth of flavor, but I'll try to keep the yeast in its happy temp range. A little lacto makes me happy.

+1

Comparing a slow, carefully fermented (with lacto!) home-crafted bourbon to many commercial $25-30 bottles of mainstream stuff, there is a huge difference in depth of flavor and complexity. I wish I could keep aging stock around for 2 years to get the full impact.

[Deplorable]

If I'm running flavored stuff I don't care how long it takes. I find letting them go slower increases depth of flavor, but I'll try to keep the yeast in its happy temp range. A little lacto makes me happy.

+1

Comparing a slow, carefully fermented (with lacto!) home-crafted bourbon to many commercial $25-30 bottles of mainstream stuff, there is a huge difference in depth of flavor and complexity. I wish I could keep aging stock around for 2 years to get the full impact.

Here is the simple solution. Your production must be more than your consumption.
You, my friend, need a bigger fermenter. Lol

[shadylane]

Main Categories ( I know these are not all of them just the ones I am starting with. Looking to see if I should start with higher temps or lower temps)
I am putting what I temp I am guessing and why. Also want to see if my guesstimates are correct.

Sugar wash - Lower Temp (68-72F)to keep out off tastes.
AG Whiskey, Bourbon...etc - Higher Temp (92-94F) to pull through Grain tastes.
LME Whiskey, Bourbon - Med Temp (80-85F) Grain taste will come through with LME
Molasses Rum - Higher Temp (92-94F) to pull through rum taste and oils.
Molasses/Sugar Rum - Higher Temp (92-94F) to pull through rum taste and oils.

All of fruit Brandies are done with E1118 always at a low temp to not blow out the fruit taste through the airlock.

Sugar wash - Middle temp (85-90)
When the temp gets cool, bakers yeast will slow done
Less Co2 is created, and the "lava lamp" effect will stop.
No more Co2 powered, elevator rides for the yeast.
No more natural stirring of the wash.
The yeast will begin to flocculate.
Also, when the temp gets below 70ish
Even minor problems with pH or nutrients start to become major problems


Ya want to make bakers yeast happy
Keep the temp steady and apply the heat to the bottom of the fermenter.

For making brandy k1v1116 yeast and what ever temp the weather happens to be.
Usually around 60-65ish degrees and takes several months

[Twisted Brick]

Comparing a slow, carefully fermented (with lacto!) home-crafted bourbon to many commercial $25-30 bottles of mainstream stuff, there is a huge difference in depth of flavor and complexity. I wish I could keep aging stock around for 2 years to get the full impact.

Here is the simple solution. Your production must be more than your consumption.
You, my friend, need a bigger fermenter. Lol

I hear ya! I think building up aging stock would be a much smaller hump that way!