Diastatic power of green corn malt

[JesseMarques]

Hi everyone
I want to brew a 100% corn mash using green malt as enzymes source but I don't know how much green malt is required to convert certain amount of unmalted grain. I've read in other threads someone is using around 10%-20% of malted corn (not green) to convert starches to get around 1050 OG. I would like to get a little higher, 1060.
So my question is: Is there any chart or info on diastatic power of green corn malt?
Anyone here has the experience on brewing using green malt?

[tombombadil]

SG is really more dependent on grain to water ratio.

The more stuff you've got dissolved in the same amount of water, the higher the SG.

The enzymes just convert the starches to sugars. So the enzymes really determine the FG (final gravity) more than the SG(starting gravity).

So if you want a higher SG, use more grain or less water. You'll need sufficient enzyme content either way.

I use 20#s of grain in 8 gallons of water and end up at 1.085-1.088. FG is pretty close to 1. Maybe you want to be closer to 16#/8 gallons, 2#s/ gallon?

However, I use powdered enzymes to thin the corn and then towards the end of the fermentation to make sure it dries out.

As far as figuring out how much malted corn to use, it depends on the enzyme content of the malted corn. Maybe start with 20% the first time and keep some powdered or liquid enzymes handy in case that's not enough?

[JesseMarques]

SG is really more dependent on grain to water ratio.

The more stuff you've got dissolved in the same amount of water, the higher the SG.

The enzymes just convert the starches to sugars. So the enzymes really determine the FG (final gravity) more than the SG(starting gravity).

So if you want a higher SG, use more grain or less water. You'll need sufficient enzyme content either way.

I use 20#s of grain in 8 gallons of water and end up at 1.085-1.088. FG is pretty close to 1. Maybe you want to be closer to 16#/8 gallons, 2#s/ gallon?

However, I use powdered enzymes to thin the corn and then towards the end of the fermentation to make sure it dries out.

As far as figuring out how much malted corn to use, it depends on the enzyme content of the malted corn. Maybe start with 20% the first time and keep some powdered or liquid enzymes handy in case that's not enough?

I know the more grain more OG, but the question is specific about the diastatic power on green corn malt. I don't intend to dry the malt because I know it drops diastatic power. My intent also is to avoid buying enzymes, that's why I ask, I don't want just to try in the dark and end up with a big batch of corny water.
The water/grain ratio is already calculated, I just need to know green malt/unmalted corn ratio.

[zed255]

In my research on various grains I take it that malted corn can't convert much more than itself, though I honestly can't say how different it would be between green and kilned malts. The kilning temperature while the malt is moist determines the amount of enzyme denaturing occurs, so just because it has been dried bones not mean it is low on enzymes.

[tombombadil]

You mentioned that you wanted to use the right amount of green corn malt to make sure you get to 1.06 instead of only 1.05 so I thought you might be a little confused.

Nobody can tell you the diastatic power of the corn that you malted. It depends on how much protein the corn started out with, what process you followed, if the corn was still viable to begin with etc... you'll have to experiment to find the right ratio to get full conversion.

You could make a mash with some % green corn malt, wait an hour, do an iodine test, add more green corn malt depending on the results of the test. Experiment your way through it...

[MichiganCornhusker]

I can't give you a DP for corn malt but I can tell you what I've done before.

2# raw corn meal cooked in 1 gallon of water.
Add 1lb air dried (not kilned) corn malt and mash at 150F for an hour.
SG = 1.085 (3#/gal)

also:

2# raw corn meal cooked in 1.5 gallons of water.
Add 1lb air dried (not kilned) corn malt and mash at 150 for an hour.
SG = 1.055 (2#/gal)

If you have a special OG in mind, maybe go for 2-1/2 lbs raw corn meal in 1.5 gallons water and mash with 1 lb corn malt. Might get you closer to OG 1.065 (not what I would suggest, the mash will just be thicker. I prefer to go with the lower OG of 1.055, works just fine for strip/spirit run distilling)

These are based on 33% of the grain bill being the corn malt. I believe the limit to the SG is available starch, not the DP of the corn malt.
You could also use less malt and do something like 1lb malt, 3lb corn meal in 2 gallons water. (25% malt)

This is all based on MY corn malt, your results may be different. Do a couple small test mashes on your stove top to experiment.

The challenge, in my experience, is that the starches in the corn malt are not readily available to enzymes for conversion without cooking (which, of course, denatures the enzymes) So, the use of malted corn is great for enzymes, or flavor, but not the optimal contributor of starch.

[JesseMarques]

Thanks for all inputs guys
I already have some corn sprouting, going to try something between 20~25% green malt, the remain percentage will be gelatinized cracked corn. I believe this will work but I'll keep you posted on my experience after the whole process is finished

[jward]

If in doubt of any ratio you try do an iodine test to check conversion.

[Teddysad]

My research is that malted corn has a low DP It will convert itself but very little more.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Did yet another experiment this morning.

1 part corn malt, 4 parts raw corn meal, at a 2# per gallon ratio. (20% malt)

SG of 1.057 in an hour.

[Sonofliberty75]

SG is really more dependent on grain to water ratio.

The more stuff you've got dissolved in the same amount of water, the higher the SG.

The enzymes just convert the starches to sugars. So the enzymes really determine the FG (final gravity) more than the SG(starting gravity).

So if you want a higher SG, use more grain or less water. You'll need sufficient enzyme content either way.

I use 20#s of grain in 8 gallons of water and end up at 1.085-1.088. FG is pretty close to 1. Maybe you want to be closer to 16#/8 gallons, 2#s/ gallon?

However, I use powdered enzymes to thin the corn and then towards the end of the fermentation to make sure it dries out.

As far as figuring out how much malted corn to use, it depends on the enzyme content of the malted corn. Maybe start with 20% the first time and keep some powdered or liquid enzymes handy in case that's not enough?

I know the more grain more OG, but the question is specific about the diastatic power on green corn malt. I don't intend to dry the malt because I know it drops diastatic power. My intent also is to avoid buying enzymes, that's why I ask, I don't want just to try in the dark and end up with a big batch of corny water.
The water/grain ratio is already calculated, I just need to know green malt/unmalted corn ratio.

I just did a test batch of 1.5 lbs of green malt corn and 1.5lbs of finely ground corn meal in a gallon of water and got 1.070 when it cooled and it's almost fermented dry, which it's been fermenting for about 2 days.
I ground my malt corn when the sprouts were 1/2" to 3/4" long!

[shadylane]

I haven't had much luck with green corn malt.
The diastic power of corn is low and the funky taste of green corn malt carries over into the whiskey.
My preference is to use malted wheat to convert corn.

[Twisted Brick]

I just did a test batch of 1.5 lbs of green malt corn and 1.5lbs of finely ground corn meal in a gallon of water and got 1.070 when it cooled and it's almost fermented dry, which it's been fermenting for about 2 days.
I ground my malt corn when the sprouts were 1/2" to 3/4" long!

Great job with your tests. Keep us appraised of your results! I am curious to learn how any grassiness might (as reported here) diminish over time.

I've yet to experience success with malting corn but remain undaunted. I am keen to produce a bourbon with malted corn.

If you are inclined to further your study, below is a link to a paper pertaining directly to your approach to corn malt:

Comparative studies on properties of amylases
extracted from kilned and unkilned malted sorghum and corn

Twisted

[shadylane]

Nice read Twisted

There was a big difference in DP between their green and kilned malt.
I noticed they "kilned" the malt at 50c for 24hours and didn't dry it first.
That kinda sounds like how I make "stewed wheat malt" the 50'c and moister kills the hell out out of the enzymes.
But on that recipe, I'll sacrifice DP for flavor profile.

looks like corn has a lower DP than even sorghum.
A Decoction mash would probably be a good option for best conversion.

https://byo.com/article/decoction-mashi ... dification.

[Twisted Brick]

Nice read Twisted

There was a big difference in DP between their green and kilned malt.
I noticed they "kilned" the malt at 50c for 24hours and didn't dry it first.

Thank you.... thank you verra much!

It was enlightening to hear Sonofliberty75 report that his green corn malt had sufficient DP to convert itself and another 50% raw corn. It is perplexing, though, how the kilning process degrades enzymes, sometimes by half. From my reading, 50C (122F) is not injurious to enzyme development, in fact any kilning temp from 120-145F begins the the conversion process, effectively jumpstarting it in the grain before the the grain ever hits water (required to complete conversion). You may be correct noting that the moisture level, and the failure to dry the malt prior to kilning it may have contributed to the degradation. My rye malting regime calls for kilning rests at 60C(8hrs), 79.4C, 82.2C and 85C after drying at 98F-109F for 24hrs.

In an earlier post in another thread you said:

Just my opinion
For flavor, Malted corn, wins hands down over raw corn and enzymes.
For mash efficiency, store bought enzymes beats corn malt.
I'd say, use enzymes for the conversion and corn malt for the flavor.
And that will let you roast, toast, smoke, stew or crystal malt the corn.
Without worrying about denaturing the natural alpha and beta enzymes in the corn malt.
That's only my opinion, your mileage may vary

This is very true, and exciting. I could see the day when I put down a mash with pale corn malt, roasted corn malt, and maybe amber or caramel corn malt (stewed?). Maybe a wee bit 'o rye or wheat (malted of course) and bam!

Ok, back on subject. Sonofliberty75, since you're going down the corn malt rabbit hole, I dug up this research paper from my archives. It shares results on optimizing corn germination temps (15C, 20C, 25C) and germination time (3,4,5,6,7, 8 and 9 days). It also reveals when diastatic power begins to degrade based on the length of the acrospire.

Cool reading. Hopefully it can help you dial your malting processes in.

[Sonofliberty75]

I just did a test batch of 1.5 lbs of green malt corn and 1.5lbs of finely ground corn meal in a gallon of water and got 1.070 when it cooled and it's almost fermented dry, which it's been fermenting for about 2 days.
I ground my malt corn when the sprouts were 1/2" to 3/4" long!

Great job with your tests. Keep us appraised of your results! I am curious to learn how any grassiness might (as reported here) diminish over time.

I've yet to experience success with malting corn but remain undaunted. I am keen to produce a bourbon with malted corn.

If you are inclined to further your study, below is a link to a paper pertaining directly to your approach to corn malt:

Comparative studies on properties of amylases
extracted from kilned and unkilned malted sorghum and corn

Twisted

Thank you! It wasnt really that bad malting corn just keep it in cooler temperatures, like 70 ish degrees is what I kept mine in, course you prolly already know that haha Iam curious as well on how the earthy flavors taste!
Thank you, I will have to read it!

[Sonofliberty75]

Nice read Twisted

There was a big difference in DP between their green and kilned malt.
I noticed they "kilned" the malt at 50c for 24hours and didn't dry it first.

Thank you.... thank you verra much!

It was enlightening to hear Sonofliberty75 report that his green corn malt had sufficient DP to convert itself and another 50% raw corn. It is perplexing, though, how the kilning process degrades enzymes, sometimes by half. From my reading, 50C (122F) is not injurious to enzyme development, in fact any kilning temp from 120-145F begins the the conversion process, effectively jumpstarting it in the grain before the the grain ever hits water (required to complete conversion). You may be correct noting that the moisture level, and the failure to dry the malt prior to kilning it may have contributed to the degradation. My rye malting regime calls for kilning rests at 60C(8hrs), 79.4C, 82.2C and 85C after drying at 98F-109F for 24hrs.

In an earlier post in another thread you said:

Just my opinion
For flavor, Malted corn, wins hands down over raw corn and enzymes.
For mash efficiency, store bought enzymes beats corn malt.
I'd say, use enzymes for the conversion and corn malt for the flavor.
And that will let you roast, toast, smoke, stew or crystal malt the corn.
Without worrying about denaturing the natural alpha and beta enzymes in the corn malt.
That's only my opinion, your mileage may vary

This is very true, and exciting. I could see the day when I put down a mash with pale corn malt, roasted corn malt, and maybe amber or caramel corn malt (stewed?). Maybe a wee bit 'o rye or wheat (malted of course) and bam!

Ok, back on subject. Sonofliberty75, since you're going down the corn malt rabbit hole, I dug up this research paper from my archives. It shares results on optimizing corn germination temps (15C, 20C, 25C) and germination time (3,4,5,6,7, 8 and 9 days). It also reveals when diastatic power begins to degrade based on the length of the acrospire.

Cool reading. Hopefully it can help you dial your malting processes in.

Sweet! Thank you, I will definitely read up on it!

[fzbwfk9r]

I can't give you a DP for corn malt but I can tell you what I've done before.

2# raw corn meal cooked in 1 gallon of water.
Add 1lb air dried (not kilned) corn malt and mash at 150F for an hour.
SG = 1.085 (3#/gal)
also:
2# raw corn meal cooked in 1.5 gallons of water.
Add 1lb air dried (not kilned) corn malt and mash at 150 for an hour.
SG = 1.055 (2#/gal)
.....
These are based on 33% of the grain bill being the corn malt.
.....
This is all based on MY corn malt, your results may be different. Do a couple small test mashes on your stove top to experiment.
.....
The challenge, in my experience, is that the starches in the corn malt are not readily available to enzymes for conversion without cooking (which, of course, denatures the enzymes) So, the use of malted corn is great for enzymes, or flavor, but not the optimal contributor of starch.

As noted elsewhere, malted corn does not need cooking at high temps.... mashing at regular mashing temps works, as malted corn already has gelled the starch

Did yet another experiment this morning.

1 part corn malt, 4 parts raw corn meal, at a 2# per gallon ratio. (20% malt)

SG of 1.057 in an hour.

I guess this pretty much refutes the "Corn only has enough DP to convert itself" rule.

Why are amateur distillers able to get better conversion/numbers than researchers using scientific methods?

Also... if one doesn't trust their malt, let it malt til the acrospire is 2" or a bit more and have "Distiller's Malt" version of super DP corn malt.
That should allow the enzymes to really accumulate.

[shadylane]

As noted elsewhere, malted corn does not need cooking at high temps.... mashing at regular mashing temps works, as malted corn already has gelled the starch

Did yet another experiment this morning.

1 part corn malt, 4 parts raw corn meal, at a 2# per gallon ratio. (20% malt)

SG of 1.057 in an hour.

I guess this pretty much refutes the "Corn only has enough DP to convert itself" rule.

Only a fraction of the starch in malted corm has been gelled.
That's why a decoction mash works best.
SG is the easy part; getting a low final gravity is more difficult....

[MichiganCornhusker]

Only a fraction of the starch in malted corm has been gelled.
That's why a decoction mash works best.

+1

[Twisted Brick]

Also... if one doesn't trust their malt, let it malt til the acrospire is 2" or a bit more and have "Distiller's Malt" version of super DP corn malt.
That should allow the enzymes to really accumulate.

From all my reading on various grains, acrospire length is a reliable indicator of degree of modification. Maximum DP in a fully-modified malt is typically achieved when acrospire length is 75-100% of seed length. If germination is continued, further growth depletes the seed of sought-after starch, resulting in less-than-optimal yield.

If you are saying that a 2" (or more) acrospire produces a higher-DP Distiller's Malt in corn, can you provide a link to support this please?

As noted elsewhere, malted corn does not need cooking at high temps.... mashing at regular mashing temps works, as malted corn already has gelled the starch

Only a fraction of the starch in malted corn has been gelled.

+1

The granular structure of corn starch requires heat and water to gelatinize.

[NormandieStill]

+1

The granular structure of corn starch requires heat and water to gelatinize.

Presumably the seeds have an enzymatic trick up their sleeves that allow them to germinate without needing to be steeped in boiling water. It'd be cool to work that one out. Low temp corn gelling would be a great thing.

[The Baker]

+1

The granular structure of corn starch requires heat and water to gelatinize.

Presumably the seeds have an enzymatic trick up their sleeves that allow them to germinate without needing to be steeped in boiling water. It'd be cool to work that one out. Low temp corn gelling would be a great thing.

I read somewhere that Irish whisky distillers used to throw the bag of grain in the river for a while,
then take it out to germinate...

Geoff

[Tater]

+1

The granular structure of corn starch requires heat and water to gelatinize.

Presumably the seeds have an enzymatic trick up their sleeves that allow them to germinate without needing to be steeped in boiling water. It'd be cool to work that one out. Low temp corn gelling would be a great thing.

Dont know of any seed needs more then moisture and warmth to sprout. Presoaking grain in sack in river will let chits form without having grain heat up as it can do.
Ive had my best luck with 50/50 corn to corn malt .either way wont taste as grassy dryed or not if ya keep sprouts from getting sunlight and turning greenish.

[Twisted Brick]

The granular structure of corn starch requires heat and water to gelatinize.

I should have said: The granular structure of corn (or any grain for that matter) starch requires heat and water to fully gelatinize during mashing. Certainly, during germination mobilized enzymes begin converting starches, but only partially, since germination is intentionally terminated. If germination is allowed to continue, (ie: 2" long acrospire) all remaining starches would be depleted, resulting in a poor yield.

To solublize starches into usable fermentable sugars in the mash tun, it takes heat and water to finish what malting begins.

[bluc]

Only malted one lot corn so far rough as, no love or care given. Green shoots. fermented green with shoots left in oh my I think I am on love. Grassy grainy flavours and corn flavour is off the charts..

[bluc]

Everything I read says take the shoot on corn to 2" also. Comparing to non malted grain volume of finished spirit was the same . So def didnt lose volume.

[NormandieStill]

Dont know of any seed needs more then moisture and warmth to sprout. Presoaking grain in sack in river will let chits form without having grain heat up as it can do.
Ive had my best luck with 50/50 corn to corn malt .either way wont taste as grassy dryed or not if ya keep sprouts from getting sunlight and turning greenish.
[/quote]

My point was that corn when germinating does reach internal temps of 80°C+ meaning that there is another mechanism which can be used to unpack the starch (presumably an enzyme).

Interesting comment about keeping the the sprouts from sunlight. That fits with what we do to various veg in order to make them palatable. I can malt in my mash tun, then blend directly in situ before mashing in. I just need to make sure that the grains are ready at a point when I have time to start the mash. I think a plan is forming (in my case first wheat, then barley).

[bluc]

SG is really more dependent on grain to water ratio.

The more stuff you've got dissolved in the same amount of water, the higher the SG.

The enzymes just convert the starches to sugars. So the enzymes really determine the FG (final gravity) more than the SG(starting gravity).

So if you want a higher SG, use more grain or less water. You'll need sufficient enzyme content either way.

I use 20#s of grain in 8 gallons of water and end up at 1.085-1.088. FG is pretty close to 1. Maybe you want to be closer to 16#/8 gallons, 2#s/ gallon?

However, I use powdered enzymes to thin the corn and then towards the end of the fermentation to make sure it dries out.

As far as figuring out how much malted corn to use, it depends on the enzyme content of the malted corn. Maybe start with 20% the first time and keep some powdered or liquid enzymes handy in case that's not enough?

If you dont have enough diastatic power it dont matter how thick you make your mash. You wont hit your sg target..

[tombombadil]

SG is really more dependent on grain to water ratio.

The more stuff you've got dissolved in the same amount of water, the higher the SG.

The enzymes just convert the starches to sugars. So the enzymes really determine the FG (final gravity) more than the SG(starting gravity).

So if you want a higher SG, use more grain or less water. You'll need sufficient enzyme content either way.

I use 20#s of grain in 8 gallons of water and end up at 1.085-1.088. FG is pretty close to 1. Maybe you want to be closer to 16#/8 gallons, 2#s/ gallon?

However, I use powdered enzymes to thin the corn and then towards the end of the fermentation to make sure it dries out.

As far as figuring out how much malted corn to use, it depends on the enzyme content of the malted corn. Maybe start with 20% the first time and keep some powdered or liquid enzymes handy in case that's not enough?

If you dont have enough diastatic power it dont matter how thick you make your mash. You wont hit your sg target..

I don't think this is true. You can dissolve starch in to water and get a gravity reading without converting it in to sugar can't you?