pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by MartinCash » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:45 pm

For UJSSM using bread yeast, you probably do not need to concern yourself with pH at all, unless you're using backset, and then only so in about the 3rd or 4th generation, if you use too much.

The grain has plenty of buffering capacity for the yeast-induced drop.

If using backset, adjust when you add your new water and sugar, and aim for a ballpark of 5-5.5. You are not doing all-grain, so you don't need to aim for the 5.2 ideal for mashing. Otherwise use shells or shell grit and they will buffer the pH for you.

Many people have been making US successfully for many generations without testing for pH. If the yeast slows down (all other things being equal), just use less backset next time.

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 pm

There are a lot of people around here that have never even tested ph. Me included. And of all the ferments I have done from one gallon to 45 gallons from sugar washes to rums with Dunder. I have never had a reason to worry about it.

I was about to get into AG beer brewing. And I was considering getting a ph tester finally. And I also had the five star 5.2 ph stabilizer on the shelf ready to use. Just never did use it. And never got a AG brew done before moving.

Just saying you don’t have to worry about it unless you really want to.
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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:16 am

MartinCash wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:45 pm
you probably do not need to concern yourself with pH at all, unless you're using backset, and then only so in about the 3rd or 4th generation, if you use too much.
Right there are the key words.
MartinCash wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:45 pm
Many people have been making US successfully for many generations without testing for pH. If the yeast slows down (all other things being equal), just use less backset next time.
And the answer to the problem if it does happen.....no need at all to know what the PH is.....just that you need less backset or dunder.
Prairiepiss wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 pm
There are a lot of people around here that have never even tested ph. Me included. And of all the ferments I have done from one gallon to 45 gallons from sugar washes to rums with Dunder. I have never had a reason to worry about it.
Woohoooo I was beginning to think I was the only one left. :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap: :wave:
Prairiepiss wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 pm
And I also had the five star 5.2 ph stabilizer on the shelf ready to use.
Was reading something somewhere the other day that said that stuff was close to useless anyway......no experience with it personally.

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Prairiepiss » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:29 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:16 am
[
Prairiepiss wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 pm
And I also had the five star 5.2 ph stabilizer on the shelf ready to use.
Was reading something somewhere the other day that said that stuff was close to useless anyway......no experience with it personally.
I had heard that also. But I also know people that sware by it.
If I remember correctly Dunderhead and I had a discussion about things that could be added as a stabilizer. It’s around here somewhere.
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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:10 am

24 hour mark report:


pH: 5.0

Gravity: 1.030 (OG was 1.080)

Taste:
Yay!

Still bubbling like crazy. I don't plan to touch anything! 8)

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by StillerBoy » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:03 am

Prairiepiss wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 pm
Just saying you don’t have to worry about it unless you really want to.
Agree, but It all comes down to level of understand the working of a fermentation..

If one has no understanding or experience of Ph, degassing and temp behavior of a fermentation, then one is not aware why a ferment takes 15 days or more to go dry, if it ever does get there..

But with awareness and knowledge of how and what those two items can play in a fermentation, then knowledge of their uses can be very beneficial in making a wash or mash do what you want it to do, and not leave it to chance..

Once a person develops understanding of how a ferment works, and how one can manage the outcome, one can cycle a wash in days, meaning ferment, clear, ready for stripping in 5 - 7 days very easily.. or manage the ferment to create an outcome you want, is just one of the benefits..

Discrediting useful information is certainly not meaningful to the betterment of the hobby..

Mars
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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by shadylane » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:13 am

kyolic wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:10 am
24 hour mark report:


pH: 5.0

Gravity: 1.030 (OG was 1.080)

Taste:
Yay!

Still bubbling like crazy. I don't plan to touch anything! 8)
Is this the first generation of UJ?

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:20 am

shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:13 am
kyolic wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:10 am
24 hour mark report:


pH: 5.0

Gravity: 1.030 (OG was 1.080)

Taste:
Yay!

Still bubbling like crazy. I don't plan to touch anything! 8)
Is this the first generation of UJ?
Yes.

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by shadylane » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:31 am

Most likely the second and future generations will be a little slower.
I've often wondered about using EC1118 yeast for a UJ.
1118 is noted for being one of the most forgiving about low pH.
Keep us posted on how the UJ goes :thumbup:

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:39 am

StillerBoy wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:03 am
Prairiepiss wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 pm
Just saying you don’t have to worry about it unless you really want to.
Agree, but It all comes down to level of understand the working of a fermentation..

If one has no understanding or experience of Ph, degassing and temp behavior of a fermentation, then one is not aware why a ferment takes 15 days or more to go dry, if it ever does get there..

But with awareness and knowledge of how and what those two items can play in a fermentation, then knowledge of their uses can be very beneficial in making a wash or mash do what you want it to do, and not leave it to chance..

Once a person develops understanding of how a ferment works, and how one can manage the outcome, one can cycle a wash in days, meaning ferment, clear, ready for stripping in 5 - 7 days very easily.. or manage the ferment to create an outcome you want, is just one of the benefits..

Discrediting useful information is certainly not meaningful to the betterment of the hobby..

Mars
I have to agree Mars here. It just doesn't make sense to wait for a fermentation to end for several weeks (some people here wait for a month or even longer). We are not brewers, we just ferment for distilling. Of course, this doesn't mean "just ferment some crap as fast as possible and distill". A shitty mash/wash will make a shitty spirit. Yet, it IS possible to ferment a good mash/wash in a week and learning how to do that makes perfect sense.

If you are happy to wait a month until fermentation is over, well go for it. Yet, if it is possible to have it ready in a week with exactly the same results, waiting several weeks/months just doesn't make sense. I mean why? Why should I wait for weeks/months where I could actually have it ready in a week with the same results?
Last edited by kyolic on Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:49 am

shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:31 am
Most likely the second and future generations will be a little slower.
Why is that? Because of the added backset which lowers the pH? I can just adjust the pH to 5.5 right after adding the backset and it would ferment at the same speed. Wrong?

shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:31 am
I've often wondered about using EC1118 yeast for a UJ.
1118 is noted for being one of the most forgiving about low pH.
Well, it is fermenting like crazy. Went down to 1.030 from 1.080 in 24 hours (I have to mention there is yeast bomb in it) and there is no off taste or whatsoever till now. Check the videos I posted. Actually it started to puke at some point and I had to change the airlock to a bucket. :wtf: :D
shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:31 am
Keep us posted on how the UJ goes :thumbup:
Of course. I will be posting the result soon.

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by MartinCash » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:54 pm

StillerBoy wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:03 am

Once a person develops understanding of how a ferment works, and how one can manage the outcome, one can cycle a wash in days, meaning ferment, clear, ready for stripping in 5 - 7 days very easily.. or manage the ferment to create an outcome you want, is just one of the benefits..
I agree, though I personally think pH is one of those things that a stiller should concern themselves with ONLY after they have mastered the basics.

Starting out is confusing enough as it is, particularly if you've had the unfortunate start of using the YouTubes to learn. I think the advice to those starting out should be to pick a recipe from Tried and True, and follow it as closely as possible. Take it through to finished product so that you understand the process. Once you've got a couple of batches under your belt, start concerning yourself with things like pH.

Most tried and true recipes are forgiving enough that no pH issues will arise, except for a few of the sugar washes (esp. birdwatchers) and UJSSM if too much backset is used.

I use rainwater in brewing, and I have had to concern myself with pH adjustments a whole lot of three or four times in eight years, and that was to get things to finish more quickly.

All that being said, when I was aiming to make the best rum possible, I followed Arroyo's recommendation for a starting pH of 5.8. Results are on oak :D
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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by shadylane » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:24 pm

kyolic wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:49 am
shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:31 am
Most likely the second and future generations will be a little slower.
Why is that? Because of the added backset which lowers the pH? I can just adjust the pH to 5.5 right after adding the backset and it would ferment at the same speed. Wrong?

Well, it is fermenting like crazy. Went down to 1.030 from 1.080 in 24 hours (I have to mention there is yeast bomb in it)
Most UJ is slower on generations
When you say yeast bomb, do you mean boiled yeast, Dap and other nutrient's?
The original UJ didn't have a yeast bomb

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:03 pm

MartinCash wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:54 pm
I personally think pH is one of those things that a stiller should concern themselves with ONLY after they have mastered the basics.
MartinCash wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:54 pm
Most tried and true recipes are forgiving enough that no pH issues will arise, except for a few of the sugar washes (esp. birdwatchers) and UJSSM if too much backset is used.
I couldn't agree more MC, my problem with the whole subject of PH is that there seems to be one or two members here who are obsessed with PH control. This in turn leads Newbs and those who know no better to believe that they need to control PH to within an inch of its life or that without that control all Ferments will fail.
You and I both know that , that is absolute BS.
We don't all need or want a wash to finish ASAP.
shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:24 pm
When you say yeast bomb, do you mean boiled yeast, Dap and other nutrient's?
Wondering the same Shady, Ive seen the term "Yeast Bomb" used in alsorts of weird ways in recent times, not always in its original meaning.
I asked why the Yeast Bomb at the beginning of the the thread.....no response. :esad:

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by StillerBoy » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:08 pm

MartinCash wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:54 pm
Starting out is confusing enough as it is, particularly if you've had the unfortunate start of using the YouTubes to learn. I think the advice to those starting out should be to pick a recipe from Tried and True, and follow it as closely as possible.
I disagree with starting is confusing enough, as that only relates to the lack of developing understanding to what one is doing before the doing.. once understanding occur, the process is relatively easy.. there is nothing complex with a fermentation or distilling..

The issue is that few have the understanding of the process and of what is happen with a fermentation in process, but think they do, and therefore promote the wrong process or encourage the wrong process.. and that is the issue with most of the T& T recipe as most of them were done many yrs back and recipes were never update on the process required.. the originator may of had the understanding of his process for the recipe, but as more page are added to the thread, it since been changed from the original recipe, as most new members don't start at the begin but somewhere else in the thread or don't have any idea what they are reading or doing..

It is visible every day by the questions asked.. for example take the Birdwatcher's recipe.. is calls for lemon juice, why ? ?.. tomatoes by their own nature are acidic, so why call for extra acid.. if one does the BW as per the recipe it is very acidic, and to get good result one has to buffer it before pitching.. and most forget that ferment temp plays a role in the equation of the result..

I've guided many with developing understanding of the process and why they are required.. and once they change and practice the new process, they get the same results I do.. and more important is they can make the adjustment they want for the result they are looking for..

As in every thing learned in life, if it is learned the wrong way, then it is extremely hard change to re-learn to do it the right way.. but that how our mind works.. so it is much easier to learn it the right way at the start.. and that also apply to operating a still..

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by MartinCash » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:20 pm

I keep wondering why Birdwatchers is still in T&T, when it causes so many problems. We have better recipes today.

It seems like a good use case for an 'Honourably Retired' category for recipes that may have been among the best we had in the past, but have now been superseded and we should not be promoting them as actively.

Meanwhile other recipes that are easy and produce foolproof results (without the need to adjust pH), such as Ted's Fast Fermenting Vodka, are not in T&T. What gives?
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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by shadylane » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:33 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:03 pm
shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:24 pm
When you say yeast bomb, do you mean boiled yeast, Dap and other nutrient's?
Wondering the same Shady, Ive seen the term "Yeast Bomb" used in alsorts of weird ways in recent times, not always in its original meaning.
I asked why the Yeast Bomb at the beginning of the the thread.....no response. :esad:
Based on how fast it's fermenting
I suspect he did add some boiled yeast and DAP

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:03 pm

Yeah reckon you could be right.

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by MartinCash » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:48 pm

kyolic wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:49 am
Well, it is fermenting like crazy. Went down to 1.030 from 1.080 in 24 hours (I have to mention there is yeast bomb in it) and there is no off taste or whatsoever till now. Check the videos I posted. Actually it started to puke at some point and I had to change the airlock to a bucket. :wtf: :D
You may well not know whether you have off tastes from too-fast a fermentation until you distil it.
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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by shadylane » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:49 pm

Birdwatchers belongs in the tried and true. :thumbup:
The sugar is kinda on the high side
But 225g of yeast in a 80ltr wash makes up for that.
I figure most failures are because folks, don't keep the wash between 30' - 35'c start to finish

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5018

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:38 pm

MartinCash wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:20 pm
I keep wondering why Birdwatchers is still in T&T, when it causes so many problems.
Second attempt at this ...some how deleted my first post.
My take on Birdwatchers problems is that it doesn't really have problems , it just seems that it may have more problems than some.
Birdwatchers was the first wash I ever made, it was the first wash many of my distilling friends made.
Ive always followed the recipe exactly and have never had one fail in any way and have never adjusted PH.
Having said that I now use another recipe that I think gives me a more neutral tasting result.
On all of the forums that I have been a member of Birdwatchers has been the No 1 recommended first wash for Newbs......especially for those with reflux stills who are trying to for neutral.
It has been made successfully by thousands upon thousands of people world wide using all sorts of water, in all sorts of climates without failing.
Some reasons for fails that I have noticed and seen .....number 1 ....relying on looking at a airlock to see if its bubbling, the no 1 unreliable way to tell if a wash is working. In this case there is nothing wrong ..the air lock is just not bubbling due to leaks.
Others fail because of a lack of experience and to much enthusiasm, rushing into the recipe and making mistakes.
To much sugar, not enough sugar, forgot the sugar all together.
To much water , not enough water, to much lemon or not enough, to much paste or none.
Ive seen......" My Birdwatchers is outside in subzero temps why is it not working" .
" whoops I forgot to put the yeast in"....." I didn't have any tomato paste so substituted Dolmio
Spaghetti Sauce"......and a gazzion others that escape me right now.
Out of all of these reasons for failure about 1 in 100 are due to PH in my opinion......most are temp related or just inexperience people not knowing the signs to look for to know that a ferment is alive and well.

In short if 80% of newbs first wash is a Birdwatchers it is to be expected that it will suffer from a higher rate of problems and "perceived" problems.

Birdwatchers deserves its place in T&T and will remain there if I have any say in it.
For what its worth I know of at least one Australian Distillery that uses this recipe to make base spirit for their award winning gin.

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by MartinCash » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:42 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:38 pm

In short if 80% of newbs first wash is a Birdwatchers it is to be expected that it will suffer from a higher rate of problems and "perceived" problems.
Cool, I get what you mean.
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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:55 am

shadylane wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:24 pm

When you say yeast bomb, do you mean boiled yeast, Dap and other nutrient's?
The original UJ didn't have a yeast bomb

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:03 pm

Wondering the same Shady, Ive seen the term "Yeast Bomb" used in alsorts of weird ways in recent times, not always in its original meaning.
I asked why the Yeast Bomb at the beginning of the the thread.....no response. :esad:
When I say the yeast bomb, I mean the original recipe given in the thread "Pugi's Rum or Pugirum" by PUGIDOGS:

2 vitamin B, crushed with mortor and pestal
5 teaspoons of 20-0-0, agrcultural fertalizer
1/4 teaspoon of epsom salt
1/4 cup bakers yeast

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5994

Yes, the original UJSSM doesn't have yeast bomb in it but mine does. If you check the original UJSSM thread, many people report using DAP and other nutrients and they are happy with the results. So am I! 8)



48 hour mark report:

pH:5.2

Gravity: 1.010 (Original gravity was 1080)

Taste: Yay!

Still bubbling. Not as crazy as before but still fast. Should ferment dry tomorrow.

Right now pH is 5.2 and although it is confusing (it was 5.0 yesterday at 1.030), I don't even care. It tastes pretty sour and decent without any funky tastes -and still fermenting fast at 1.010.

I can even distill it today if I want to (I'll wait of course). I couldn't be happier! :D 8)

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by shadylane » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:23 am

kyolic wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:55 am

When I say the yeast bomb, I mean the original recipe given in the thread "Pugi's Rum or Pugirum" by PUGIDOGS:
That's my definition of a yeast bomb also.
PUGIDOGS was really on to something when he came up with that.
All the sugar wash recipe's speedup when Ya drop a bomb in it. :wink:

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:58 pm

72 hour mark report:

pH:5.2

Gravity: 1.000 (Original gravity was 1.080)

Taste: Yay!

There is still slight activity in the airlock.

From 1.080 to 1.000 in three days without any off tastes (mash taste is so good that I feel like sparing some for drinking as wine).

I love you Lalvin EC-1118! I love you Yeast Bomb! I love you UJSSM! :lol:

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by shadylane » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:32 am

kyolic wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:58 pm


From 1.080 to 1.000 in three days without any off tastes (mash taste is so good that I feel like sparing some for drinking as wine).
I you do, Ya better make sure there's plenty of toilet paper in the bath room :lol:
I've heard tell, Epsom salt can give Ya the screaming shits

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Yummyrum » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:36 am

:lol: True that Shady

Glad you’re a happy camper kyolic . :thumbup:

I have a sneaking suspicion that your next gen might not be so fast .

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:51 am

shadylane wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:32 am
kyolic wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:58 pm


From 1.080 to 1.000 in three days without any off tastes (mash taste is so good that I feel like sparing some for drinking as wine).
I you do, Ya better make sure there's plenty of toilet paper in the bath room :lol:
I've heard tell, Epsom salt can give Ya the screaming shits
Yup, I know. :D



Yummyrum wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:36 am

Glad you’re a happy camper kyolic . :thumbup:
Thank you Yummyrum.

Yummyrum wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:36 am

I have a sneaking suspicion that your next gen might not be so fast .
Well, as the backset will lower the pH, I will adjust it to 5.5 with calcium hydroxide. The only other remaining issue that could cause a slower fermentation in the next gen would be the settled yeast from the previous batch not doing its job as good as freshly pitched yeast, but then again, I can always pitch some fresh yeast. :twisted:

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by Yummyrum » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:59 am

LOL , I though the addition of Backset was to sour the fermentation . Thats the Uncle Jessie Simple Sour Mash .

Iff’n you are going to not make it so sour , then its not going to be a UJ no more .

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Re: pH 5.5 should be kept constant during all process?

Post by kyolic » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:26 am

Yummyrum wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:59 am
LOL , I though the addition of Backset was to sour the fermentation . Thats the Uncle Jessie Simple Sour Mash .

Iff’n you are going to not make it so sour , then its not going to be a UJ no more .
Hmm, you have a point there. Ok, I'll check pH after adding backset and decide.

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