First lauter/ all grain. Didn't quite go as planned...

[stillanoob]

Howdy All,

Welp, me and my still buddy made or first foray into all grain. We were using Honey Bear Bourbon as as our starting point.

16.6 LB of Breiss flaked maize
3.3 pounds white wheat
3.3 ponds of red wheat
3.3 pounds of pale malt
1.6 pounds of honey malt
2 pounds (I think, I have to check) rice hulls for drainage

We did not grind the corn. Maybe we should have? The grain we ground twice through my old roller mill. It was finer that I used to do for beer. Maybe we shouldn't have?

Mashed in the corn with 10 or so gallons of water just below boiling. Initial temp was between 185-190 so we added the Sebstar HTL, about 25g. We let it sit for about 1.5 hours. The enzymes seemed to help loosen it up. It was still warmer than the desired 155 or so for adding the grains so we stirred it and brought the temperature down. When we added the grain we came out at about 150. We let it sit and as it cooled we could see that the mixture was too thick so we kept the temp up by adding hot water. In total we let it sit for about 3 hours.

At this point it was still failing an iodine starch conversion test so we though we would see if we could start to lauter and hope that a little re-circulation would help conversion. The mash was stuck as all get out. We are using a false bottom with a manifold underneath. The funny thing was that we could blow through it OK. We tried to take a gravity and both the refractometer and hydrometer said the gravity was 1.080. No way that was anywhere near reality as not only did the wort taste starchy and not sweet enough but that would take about 100% extraction. I tried to filter a sample through some stainless steel wool and then a coffee filter. It simply wouldn't go through the coffee filter.

At this point it was getting late and so it was time to take what we had and ferment on the grain. By taste I would say there was about 3-4% worth of sugars in there. We pitched some baker's and hung a stocking of oyster shells in there and called it a day. The ferment took off like a rocket.

So, there was a lot of starch in solution at the end. Not only did it fail the iodine test but you could taste it. I think the starches in solution are why the gravity was way off and the mash was stuck. From my experience in all grain brewing I feel convinced that the grain side of it converted reasonably. I would guess that we didn't mash the corn well enough and the enzymes of the grain were unable to convert it.

If I was left alone to do it again with no input from the more experienced I would probably:

Grind the corn.
Not grind the grain as much.
Make sure the mash water was at a boil for the corn.
Let the corn mash sit longer.

Next week are going to repeat the performance along with a stripping run. Any tips or tricks to have it not be a complete shit-show next time much appreciated!

[Setsumi]

flaked maize should be allready be gelatenized. your other unmalted grains may have benefited by the high temp and enzymes. but the enzymes and malt should convert it. fine grind whole grains. where i am i need 2 enzymes, one to convert to dextrose at high temp and one to convert dextrose to fermentable sugars at lower temps, but your matl should do the second.

[still_stirrin]

stillanoob,

What Setsumi says here is true:

flaked maize should be allready be gelatenized. your other unmalted grains may have benefited by the high temp and enzymes. but the enzymes and malt should convert it.

But, flaked corn will make a thick mushy paste when mashing. So, you need plenty of hulls, and I prefer malted barley for this. I think using some corn kernals instead of all flaked corn would help the flow through when lautering.

When I first started lautering corn, I had to “slice” into the grain bed with a knife to help create water channels down into the grain. And even then, it would sometimes stick the mash. I’ve had to scoop out the corn and put it in paint strainer bags and then lauter through the bags before too.

But the best solution I found was to use the lauter tun with the false bottom and drain grid (with long slots in it) and keep the mash bed depth to 12” to 14”. A deeper mash bed (before I added the 2nd lauter tun) was harder to drain. So, as you can tell, my lauter processes had to mature and adapt as I learned. Now, it is an easy process...when the equipment is right and the mashing protocol is thorough.

Don’t give up. You’ll get it working. Next time, use ground corn (meal) instead of flaked corn. It’ll work better for you. But, with ground corn, you WILL need to gelatinize it. So, get your high temperature enzymes ready.
ss

[stillanoob]

Thanks Set and SS.

Lemme try to get some of this straight.

Since we used flaked maize, we didn't need to get it to 190 and use the Sebstar HTL? I thought that it was pre-gelantinized but needed some help from enzymes to convert into something that the enzymes from the grain could work with.

The whole stuck mas thing puzzles me. Slicing through didn't help, we tried that and scraped the false bottom too. One could blow easily through the grain bed. In fact, it wasn't a grain bed in the same way as when I brewed at all. The grains were pretty well in suspension and not settling out. When we bailed it out into a Brute there was no evidence of grain being packed, either above or below the false bottom or manifold. It was pretty much the same consistency from top to bottom.

Set, could you tell me a little more about the enzymes you use and the protocol? Temps and times and so on would be great. SS, we have enough of the flaked maize for two more tries and so I would like to use that and then get some regular corn. So any tips on using that would be great. I am far more interested in figuring out why we didn't convert the corn than solving the stuck mash issue. We can always ferment on the grain although I really want to get the lauter down.

Another thing, what about pH ranges for the Sebstar? I know my water is about 5.5pH and very soft. Could that be why we didn't convert the corn?

Thanks for the help!

[MichiganCornhusker]

Mashed in the corn with 10 or so gallons of water just below boiling. Initial temp was between 185-190 so we added the Sebstar HTL, about 25g. We let it sit for about 1.5 hours. The enzymes seemed to help loosen it up. It was still warmer than the desired 155 or so for adding the grains so we stirred it and brought the temperature down. When we added the grain we came out at about 150. We let it sit and as it cooled we could see that the mixture was too thick so we kept the temp up by adding hot water. In total we let it sit for about 3 hours.

A few things come to mind. Unless I'm reading it wrong, it looks like you added about 30# of grains to 10 gallons of water. A 3:1 ratio would make a pretty thick mash. Not sure how much hot water you added after, but that might also explain the high SG.

You mention "letting it sit" after adding the enzymes, and then again after adding the malts. The enzymes are not motile and will need some good stirring occasionally to make them more effective. I do this by really giving it the business with drywall mixer on a drill. That SebStar HTL should have really liquified that corn. Oh, and definitely hit the corn with water at a full rolling boil, the hottest you can get it.

I don't use flaked maize but I have read conflicting info as to whether or not it is fully gelatinized. Based on what I've read, personally, I wouldn't trust it to be ready for mashing and I would grind it and hit it with boiling water, and then use the high temp enzymes. I would also add all of the ground un-malted grains at the same time, the high temps and SebstarHTL can only help with conversion.

I ferment on-grain so I can't help with the lautering challenges. I've fermented off-grain before by straining out the grains and batch sparging a couple times, but I ended up deciding it just wasn't worth all the mess, and I just strain after fermenting now. SS has his protocols dialed in though, so I know it can be done and it can work well.

I'm not puzzled my your stuck mash, the abilities of corn to plug a hole are well documented on here! Between the corn and the un-malted wheat, I would expect that was a fairly slimey mash. I almost blew my beer out my nose when I read you tried to run it through a coffee filter. Corn can be a beast to strain and filter out.

If you think there is a lot of starch in the mix now be careful and watch for scorching when you do your stripping run.

Another thing, what about pH ranges for the Sebstar? I know my water is about 5.5pH and very soft. Could that be why we didn't convert the corn?

SebAmyl, especially, can be sensitive to pH. I can't tell you the optimal ranges for the enzymes off the top of my head, but I know when I do a bourbon style mash I usually need to drop the pH with some backset or citric acid before adding the SebAmyl GL. That said, you had plenty of malted grains in ther, too, so it seems like that wasn't a big problem.

Sounds like you're close, any you might have a good whiskey sitting in there fermenting right now.
Good luck, keep us posted.

[still_stirrin]

...we have enough of the flaked maize for two more tries and so I would like to use that and then get some regular corn. So any tips on using that would be great...

Was your white and red wheat unmalted? Regardless, it doesn’t have husks like malted barley does. So, I think you could add more “fiber” to your mash. But, I suggest buying some whole or cracked corn and splitting your corn contribution between flaked and milled corn.

The milled (whole or cracked) corn will need to be gelatinized. And, if your wheat is raw unmalted wheat, then you can gelatinize that with the corn. Mill the wheat berries like you would the corn, to a fine meal, not flour. But, I would add the flaked corn to the mash tun when you dough in your malted barley.

I agree with MCH, the amylase GL enzymes do need to have the pH lower, I think closer to 4.0. I use a little backset to “sour” the mash in the tun when I stir everything in. And do stir your mash good...a paint stirrer on a drill will help a lot with that. Also, if you’re thicker than 2-1/2 lb/gallon (my mashes are 2.4 lb/gallon of which only 5% is flaked oats), then more water will help both starch conversion and lautering.

You’ll need to hold the temperature while the starch converts, and this can take a while. I usually have to hold for a couple of hours until the iodine test is good. But, the lowered pH will help conversion dynamics.

Be patient. It should lauter a little easier once the mash has completed conversion. However, it will still take some diligence to get it done.
ss

[Twisted Brick]

I am far more interested in figuring out why we didn't convert the corn than solving the stuck mash issue.

Another thing, what about pH ranges for the Sebstar? I know my water is about 5.5pH and very soft. Could that be why we didn't convert the corn?

I think you may be light on enzymes.

According to your mash bill, your wheat (as listed) is not malted, leaving you short on DP. The Alpha Amylase (HTL) can only break down large, complex chains to smaller ones. Without sufficient enzymes from malt you need beta enzymes to achieve saccharification and complete conversion.

If your wheat was indeed malted, along with the 2-row, you had enough DP (39L) for conversion, but if you landed at 150F after adding in your adjuncts, perhaps you may have doughed in too hot, effectively denaturing their enzymes?

Like many distillers, I use alpha and beta enzymes in addition to flavoring malts. The beta enzymes convert a number of non-fermentable dextrines that malt alone can’t. If you give these a go you should get a more acceptable conversion rate.

You also might try switching to corn meal. I ferment on grain, but the grain size of meal gels rather quickly yet remains granular enough that it might make lautering easier than with flaked corn. It’s cheaper too.

Good luck with your next mash.

Twisted

[stillanoob]

Firstly, my apologies for not listing the wheat as malt. It is and sorry for wasting folk's time on that.

MCH, we did stir a fair bit. Maybe should have done more. We were using a drill with a mortar paddle and a spoon. I do know the enzymes need help perambulating. As to pH, we didn't measure. Sebstar HTL says 5.6 to 6.5pH with the ideal being 5.8pH. It also says that calcium stabilizes the enzymes. My water is 5.5pH and very soft. I ordered some calcium sulphate (gypsum) which will hopefully help the enzymes and buffer my soft water a little.

Sebstar GL says that it prefers a pH range of 2.8 to 5.5. Obviously I need to start measuring pH and I do have a meter. Next batch I will have some backset to use to lower pH and I also have some citric and malic acid. Perhaps I will do a small test batch and see where the pH lands and see if I can get conversion.

I ordered some of the Sebstar GL but it probably won't be here in time for this week's run. SS I am ordering some corn meal but likewise it won't be here in time. In any case I am curious to see if I can get the flaked maize to convert. Yeah, I know the definition of insanity. But if I change too many variables I won't know exactly what the problem was. I'm in it to learn it as much as for success.

Twist, what enzymes do you use? And any other details on temps, times, procedure much appreciated.

I can't wait to try it again. Damn real life is such a distraction!

[Twisted Brick]

You're on the right track and before long you'll be converting corn in your sleep. (I know I do!)

The pH of my tap water is 7.0. Adding corn drops the pH to a workable 5.5 - 5.8. When I started out I was adding a gallon of backset, but over successive generations it gradually becomes acidic, so now I am in the habit of adding maybe a 1-2qts. I also suspend a 'necklace' of oyster shells into the fermenter after 24hrs. I try to keep my ferment temp stable and it is usually finished in 7-8 days at 62F - 74F.

I use SebStar HTL, Gluco and Glucanase. Love 'em to death and they have become SOP in all my mashes, including stovetop mashes for starters.

I know this is a stretch, but you might try fermenting on grain to get your chops down. The enzymes you use in the mash continue to do their magic (provided you don't denature them) in the ferment, assuring the highest conversion and most sugar possible.

For your enjoyment:

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 39&t=70877

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/di ... n%20weight.

https://adiforums.com/topic/9004-malted ... r-enzymes/
.

Enzyme pH Chart.gif (6.37 KiB) Viewed 1141 times

[Demy]

I have always been convinced that it is still convenient to grind everything, even the flakes both because you have no difficulty if you have a mill and because this helps gelatinization and enzymes in the work. For filtration it is much more important to have peels in adequate quantities as they are the real filter.

[WithOrWithoutU2]

stillanoob,

What Setsumi says here is true:

flaked maize should be allready be gelatenized. your other unmalted grains may have benefited by the high temp and enzymes. but the enzymes and malt should convert it.

But, flaked corn will make a thick mushy paste when mashing. So, you need plenty of hulls, and I prefer malted barley for this. I think using some corn kernals instead of all flaked corn would help the flow through when lautering.

When I first started lautering corn, I had to “slice” into the grain bed with a knife to help create water channels down into the grain. And even then, it would sometimes stick the mash. I’ve had to scoop out the corn and put it in paint strainer bags and then lauter through the bags before too.

But the best solution I found was to use the lauter tun with the false bottom and drain grid (with long slots in it) and keep the mash bed depth to 12” to 14”. A deeper mash bed (before I added the 2nd lauter tun) was harder to drain. So, as you can tell, my lauter processes had to mature and adapt as I learned. Now, it is an easy process...when the equipment is right and the mashing protocol is thorough.

Don’t give up. You’ll get it working. Next time, use ground corn (meal) instead of flaked corn. It’ll work better for you. But, with ground corn, you WILL need to gelatinize it. So, get your high temperature enzymes ready.
ss

You should think about doing a "how to" video or post with pics on "lautering with corn". I understand what you've posted here already, but I would imagine there is more to color in and video/pics are worth a thousands words.

[stillanoob]

A little update...

Tried to rack the beer we had going as it was done. Nice and dry. Clearly it kept converting as it no longer had any starchy flavor. It passed an iodine test too. Tasted like 5-6%. So while the lauter was a fail at least the mash was OK. The oyster shells showed some wear but were worth saving so I did.

Plugged up the filter for the pump, even though I made a sneaky three part filter. So I took a 3 gallon bucket and drilled a bunch of 1/4" holes in it and slid it into a 5 gallon bucket. That gives about 6" underneath and makes a false bottom. I took a brew bag and dumped the grains etc. in and squoze it out. Ended up with about 7 gallons, I was originally shooting for 9-10 but I think I didn't compensate enough for how much the grain soaked up and I didn't squeeze every drop out of it. Good enough.

Next week we are going to strip what we have and try another mash. This time hotter water for the corn and hold it longer. Single pass through the mill for the grain and may back off the width for a coarser grind. I should have the Sebstar GL by then too. Will check pH and adjust if needed. I bet we wind up fermenting on the grain again but one of these days I will get the lauter to work.

Thanks for the advice, gents. I'm making progress.

TB, great chart, thanks for that, saved it to the hard drive.

[stillanoob]

Once more into the breach...

Well, the second attempt was very similar to the first. Either the equipment was colder this time or I had a recto-cranial inversion reading the thermometer last time but in spite of mashing in the corn with boiling water we ended up at 185F. Next time I will pre-warm the pot over the wood burning stove, the shed is unheated most of the time. I may drag the grain inside the night before too.

However, we got better conversion this time. I don't know if it was the addition of the Sebstar GL this time or what but there was only a trace of starch by the time we packed it in. From the results last time though I am not worried and am sure it will convert and then ferment.

The mash was just as stuck as last time. We used more water and it was much thinner. I see no reason why it should have stuck like that. I am beginning to suspect the fancy stainless spring manifold. There is no evidence that the false bottom was plugged. I am going to make a new manifold out of CPVC and see if that helps.

So, another batch is fermenting on the grain. Not the end of the world. Last week I stripped the beer we made last time and it had a nasty yeast aftertaste. I have never had one like that. However, we did the spirit run on it to see what it was like and it came out quite good! The hearts were surprisingly neutral and I think I am tasting the lack of sugar bite, it just isn't quite as hot.