Fermenting & Distilling on the Grain & Fruit

[7bruno7]

Hey all,
New to the forum...I’ve done some research online concerning this subject, but wanted to see if the opinions are as varied on this forum as it is on other online resources...

What is everyone’s opinion, both negative and positive, to fermenting on the grain and/or fruit?

And, to a larger more controversial aspect, what is everyone’s opinion, both negative and positive, to distilling on the grain and/or fruit? With regard to distilling on the grain/fruit, and to streamline the conversation, let’s just assume that all the necessary equipment needed to prevent scorching is being utilized...

[Demy]

Hi, I did both (grains and fruit of various types) in general you get more aroma by fermenting the whole fruit and distilling everything, this is especially true with fruit. It must be considered that there are several ways to proceed and a variety of equipment so the opinions can be different.

[7bruno7]

Demy,
With regard to equipment, I have a Bain-Marie boiler, 4 inch/4 bubble plate column, with a dephlegmator. When you state, “ it must be considered that there are several ways to proceed“, what are you referring to?

And, when you “distill everything”, I assume that you’re also putting any and all yeast in the boiler with the grains/fruits, right? If so, in your experience, do you ever notice the yeast giving off bad aromas and flavors by running the yeast through the still?

[Demy]

By different ways of proceeding I mean that you can 1) separate liquid from solids then ferment 2) ferment liquid solids and then separate before distilling 3) ferment with solids and then distill with solids. The choice will be based on preference / equipment, since you have a good set-up you could go with the 3rd option. I've never noticed any problems with having yeast in distillation (unless you have a ton of yeast) as long as it doesn't burn. In the past I have had a burn with fruit (with immersed electric element) and it is really horrendous, you can't separate that smell even with several distillations.

[7bruno7]

Thanks Demy!! Does anyone else have any experience distilling on the grain/fruit, with the yeast included?? I would like to hear about the good and bad experiences others have had with regard to the impact of putting all the yeast in the boiler with the grains/fruits....

[Butch27]

Thanks Demy!! Does anyone else have any experience distilling on the grain/fruit, with the yeast included?? I would like to hear about the good and bad experiences others have had with regard to the impact of putting all the yeast in the boiler with the grains/fruits....

Everyone's palate is different. You have the equipment. Why not try it and see if you like it. If you do, carry on, if not, try something different.

[hypnopooper]

I have a bain marie boiler with a column and agitator as well. I ferment and distill on the grain and have not had any issues whatsoever with any bad aromas in the distillate. For all grain whiskies, I do a 1 and done run, meaning I take the fermented mash with solids and yeasts, run it one time with the column, cut my heads in the beginning of the run then collect from 190 to about 100 proof and cut out tails, and done. I then proof down to about 130 with RO water before adding to a barrel for aging. This works for me and I have had no issues with it. Since it's way too convenient for me to not have to separate the mash solids from the liquids that I have no plans to deviate from that process.

[stillanoob]

Not a whole lot of experience here but...

So far I have fermented on the grain since I seem unable to figure out how to lauter. Plums I ferment on the fruit until the cap sinks and then then I rack and finish the ferment. I really want the flavor of the plum skin in the wine and brandy. Apple and pear I press and ferment juice only. Part of the reason for that is that apples seem more prone to infection and I do a long ferment because my cider house is unheated and in the fall/winter it is cold. Another reason is that I have been making hard cider for a long time and that is just how I do it.

[hypnopooper]

So I have never done fruits and I think you make some valuable points about specific skins/seeds/pits, I would imagine that they can effect the distillate both negatively or positively depending of with ones you are working with.

[Demy]

So I have never done fruits and I think you make some valuable points about specific skins/seeds/pits, I would imagine that they can effect the distillate both negatively or positively depending of with ones you are working with.

Fruit will benefit both fermentation and distillation on solids, as mentioned by stillanobs generally it is preferable to distill immediately after fermentation because the acetic bacteria tend to take over, the apples im primis.

[7bruno7]

Thanks Demy!! Does anyone else have any experience distilling on the grain/fruit, with the yeast included?? I would like to hear about the good and bad experiences others have had with regard to the impact of putting all the yeast in the boiler with the grains/fruits....

Everyone's palate is different. You have the equipment. Why not try it and see if you like it. If you do, carry on, if not, try something different.

Working on it Butch. Thanks!!

[7bruno7]

I have a bain marie boiler with a column and agitator as well. I ferment and distill on the grain and have not had any issues whatsoever with any bad aromas in the distillate. For all grain whiskies, I do a 1 and done run, meaning I take the fermented mash with solids and yeasts, run it one time with the column, cut my heads in the beginning of the run then collect from 190 to about 100 proof and cut out tails, and done. I then proof down to about 130 with RO water before adding to a barrel for aging. This works for me and I have had no issues with it. Since it's way too convenient for me to not have to separate the mash solids from the liquids that I have no plans to deviate from that process.

Thanks for sharing your experience hypnopooper!!

With regard to proofing your spirit down to about 130 proof, do you follow a period of amalgamation to let the spirit and water unionize prior to putting it in the barrel for aging?

Also, do you allow a certain number of days to pass after the spirit comes off the still to let the spirit ”air out or breathe” before you do your taste testing and cutting?

Just curious about your opinion, and anyone else’s opinion who wants to chime in and give their thoughts on these topics...

[7bruno7]

Not a whole lot of experience here but...

So far I have fermented on the grain since I seem unable to figure out how to lauter. Plums I ferment on the fruit until the cap sinks and then then I rack and finish the ferment. I really want the flavor of the plum skin in the wine and brandy. Apple and pear I press and ferment juice only. Part of the reason for that is that apples seem more prone to infection and I do a long ferment because my cider house is unheated and in the fall/winter it is cold. Another reason is that I have been making hard cider for a long time and that is just how I do it.

Interesting stillanoob, I never considered the apple solids getting infected with acetic bacteria if left to sit too long after fermentation has completed, good thing to make a mental note about...

When your fermenting on the grains, and this question applies to anyone who wants to voice their opinions and thoughts, do you always use a malted grain to help with the conversion process, or do you sometimes use a grain bill that consists of all grains that are not malted, then use liquid amylase to help with the conversion process?

For those that use liquid amylase, what is your opinion with how the liquid amylase affects the aroma and taste profile of your spirit, if at all?

[hypnopooper]

when proofing down, I don't let it sit before putting it in the barrel but it does usually sit a bit beforee I have enough to fill a barrel. For cuts, i generally keep everything from the moment the distillate begins to taste sweet after heads all the way until it begins to develop a sour taste into the tails. For my still it's somewhere between 100-115 proof. I discard everything after that. I do not do tight cuts and everything gets collected into the same carboy.

[River Rat]

do you allow a certain number of days to pass after the spirit comes off the still to let the spirit ”air out or breathe” before you do your taste testing and cutting?

I let mine air out in jars covered with coffee filters for at least 3 days, have let them sit for up to a week before. A lot people say 24 hrs works for them but that has not been my experience. I notice a big difference after 3 days vs 24 hrs.

[Teddysad]

For fruit, I have done several types and use the following technique:
Lemons - peel them keeping the centre juice filled pulp, then peel the skin free of all white pith, boil and simmer for 40 to 60 minutes then hit it with a stick blender. Strain through a chinois conical strainer to remove all remaining solid particles. add sugar and water and ferment.
Peaches: remove stones, cut into chunks add a little pectinase and cover with warm water and let sit for 2 hours. Bring to boil and simmer for 60 minutes ( this softens pulp and skins and also kills off any wild yeast). Again quick blitz with stick blender and again through the chinois.
This technique means no solids in the ferment, and also lets me freeze the juice until it is wanted.