How does Bourbon work?

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Storm
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How does Bourbon work?

Post by Storm »

Hi everyone,

once again a long story I wont cut short.
I have made an "irish" honey whiskey a while back (the recipe and stuff you can find in this thread: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 0#p7667310).

Now me and my family tried it back to back with some Jack Daniels Honey. And while my stuff wasnt bad per se and would have considered it smooth or not to offensive on its own JD Honey is a whole other beast in this area. I know, dont compare yourself to much to the bought stuff, but it got me into the idea of using corn more. Since its not commonly used for anything but feeding animals and kids breakfast where i live I never even considered it much.

To finally get to the point I wanted to make something bourbon like and researched the rough grain bill for Jack Daniels. Even though I dont like straight Jack at all it seems like a logical starting point. Turns out all big Bourbons use at least 70% (flaked) corn Jack Daniels in particular even 80%.

With my very basic knowledge of diastatic power:
UNMALTED Corn 0 °L
Pilsner Malt (highest Diastatic Power malt i know) 130°L

80% corn -> (4*0 + 1*130)/5 = 26

If ~30-35°L are needed for conversion 26°L should at least convert really poorly not to mention if I where to use rye or wheat malt, like it seems to be common in Bourbon.

Since Bourbon is a common drink I guess it works, because well it is done, but HOW?
I guess I do get something wrong or I just messed up the logic, but long story short how does this work?
Or do Bourbon makers just accept that not all of their starch is converted? Is this the trick behind the taste?
Is the Flaked Corn Malted and nobody is telling me this? If so malted corn seems to be really difficult to source...

I hope you can clear my confusen some what.
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by kmmuellr »

Added enzymes.
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by still_stirrin »

Storm,

First off, Jack Daniels does not use “flaked” corn. They use whole corn they contract from local grain producers. They actually buy the grains from the farmers before it’s even harvested. And they are very select about the corn variety they buy. Keeping the basis of the product identical is paramount to the whiskey producer.

Also, the other cereal grains are locally sourced as well. Again, the intention is to keep the flavors consistant batch to batch. All their grains are malted prior to shipment to the distillery. Malting grains changes the flavors and adds diastatic power. After all, extract efficiency is “the name of the game” when you’re a commercial producer. The goal is maximum extraction of fermentables for the distiller’s beer.

And as noted, the commercial distilleries use added enzymes to help “squeeze the most” sugars out of the grains for fermentation. Again, it’s driven by economics. Of course, small batch producers may not be as diligent at extraction, choosing to trade efficiency for unique character. Brewing is an “art form” and the small batch producers are more into “the artistry” than large commercial producers. And as we know, the spirit’s character starts with the grains and the recipe, and progresses through the processes.

Bourbons have evolved significantly in the past 2 decades as craft producers have joined the marketplace. The majors, like JD, have felt the competitive draw, but it has actually opened a new market for whiskey. This is parallel to how the craft beer industry affected the corporate beer producers’ marketshare in the 90’s. It has expanded the beer drinking community worldwide rather than reduce the market of the major producers.
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by Twisted Brick »

.
If you dive into any of the many corn/bourbon/adjunct threads here you will learn that in (home) crafting a bourbon:
  • flaked corn is needlessly expensive vs cornmeal or grinding cracked corn
  • wheat malt (easily done at home) has just as much DP as barley malt, rye a little less
  • home and commercial distillers target complete conversion
  • like kmmueller states, enzymes (alpha and gluco) make conversion a breeze
  • the best home-distilled bourbons (spirits) are dependent on sound mashing and fermenting practices as well as distilling
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by Expat »

Storm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:54 am Hi everyone,

once again a long story I wont cut short.
I have made an "Irish" honey whiskey a while back (the recipe and stuff you can find in this thread: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 0#p7667310).

Now me and my family tried it back to back with some Jack Daniels Honey. And while my stuff wasn't bad per se and would have considered it smooth or not to offensive on its own JD Honey is a whole other beast in this area. I know, don't compare yourself to much to the bought stuff, but it got me into the idea of using corn more. Since its not commonly used for anything but feeding animals and kids breakfast where i live I never even considered it much.

To finally get to the point I wanted to make something bourbon like and researched the rough grain bill for Jack Daniels. Even though I don't like straight Jack at all it seems like a logical starting point. Turns out all big Bourbons use at least 70% (flaked) corn Jack Daniels in particular even 80%.

With my very basic knowledge of diastatic power:
UNMALTED Corn 0 °L
Pilsner Malt (highest Diastatic Power malt I know) 130°L

80% corn -> (4*0 + 1*130)/5 = 26

If ~30-35°L are needed for conversion 26°L should at least convert really poorly not to mention if I where to use rye or wheat malt, like it seems to be common in Bourbon.

Since Bourbon is a common drink I guess it works, because well it is done, but HOW?
I guess I do get something wrong or I just messed up the logic, but long story short how does this work?
Or do Bourbon makers just accept that not all of their starch is converted? Is this the trick behind the taste?
Is the Flaked Corn Malted and nobody is telling me this? If so malted corn seems to be really difficult to source...

I hope you can clear my confusion some what.
Here is a good reference understanding recipe development
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 11&t=69417
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by Storm »

Thanks for the Info, that clears it up.
I thought about using enzymes for a while now but the are kinda hard to get for me and kinda feel like cheating, but on the other hand the open up a whole new world of possibilitys. Probably in a few months.

Special thanks to Expat for the reference chart. This Best Pilsner Malt with over 300 °L seems to be quiet crazy, I will call them tomorrow to verify this high number but this will probably be my next thing, almost like enzymes but less cheaty ^^

Also Thanks still_Stirring for the in depth info, great read and information!
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by Setsumi »

Storm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:06 am Thanks for the Info, that clears it up.
I thought about using enzymes for a while now but the are kinda hard to get for me and kinda feel like cheating, but on the other hand the open up a whole new world of possibilitys. Probably in a few months.

Special thanks to Expat for the reference chart. This Best Pilsner Malt with over 300 °L seems to be quiet crazy, I will call them tomorrow to verify this high number but this will probably be my next thing, almost like enzymes but less cheaty ^^

Also Thanks still_Stirring for the in depth info, great read and information!
there is no cheeting for the homedistiller, just as there is no rules to govern your product except "dont tell and dont sell." go to tried and true and read booners casual corn. forget jack d and jim beam. if you follow booners you will have much better. once you are comfortable with booners try adding oats or other grains at 10%.
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Storm
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by Storm »

Expat wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:57 am Here is a good reference understanding recipe development
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 11&t=69417
EDIT: apperently I start forgetting things... I talk about this list here:
http://www.brewunited.com/grain_database.php
I was sure it was mentioned in this thread here... where did i get this list from...

Just as a follow up, unfortunatly the "BESTMALZ Pilsner" isnt quiet as potent as the list suggests.
Their own website lists it with 250 Windisch–Kolbach (°WK) which calculates out to only 76 °Lintner.
https://bestmalz.de/en/malts/best-pilsen-malt/
Weyermann offers a slightly better malt, specially made for high DP (diastase malts). Unfortunatly i could only find the info in german, but it has ~ 300 °WK while all their other malts are only classivied as "hoch" -> "high" while the special DP malt is classified as "sehr hoch" -> "very high". (indicating all other malts from them have lower DP)
https://www.weyermann.de/downloads/ger/ ... 5_2017.pdf

Which would mean even the best malts (Easily available in germany) have a max. DP of around 80°L?
So I would need around 50% of them in every mash or I would need liquid enzymes... which are way harder to get...
Do I get anything wrong? OR do you guys know of higher DP malts (relatively common ones)?

once again this list here has comparatively ridiculously high numbers:
https://blog.homebrewing.org/what-is-di ... ion-chart/
I guess the info from the Malt makers must be right as well? I dont get it
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by Expat »

Storm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 11:34 pm
Expat wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:57 am Here is a good reference understanding recipe development
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 11&t=69417
EDIT: apperently I start forgetting things... I talk about this list here:
http://www.brewunited.com/grain_database.php
I was sure it was mentioned in this thread here... where did i get this list from...

Just as a follow up, unfortunatly the "BESTMALZ Pilsner" isnt quiet as potent as the list suggests.
Their own website lists it with 250 Windisch–Kolbach (°WK) which calculates out to only 76 °Lintner.
https://bestmalz.de/en/malts/best-pilsen-malt/
Weyermann offers a slightly better malt, specially made for high DP (diastase malts). Unfortunatly i could only find the info in german, but it has ~ 300 °WK while all their other malts are only classivied as "hoch" -> "high" while the special DP malt is classified as "sehr hoch" -> "very high". (indicating all other malts from them have lower DP)
https://www.weyermann.de/downloads/ger/ ... 5_2017.pdf

Which would mean even the best malts (Easily available in germany) have a max. DP of around 80°L?
So I would need around 50% of them in every mash or I would need liquid enzymes... which are way harder to get...
Do I get anything wrong? OR do you guys know of higher DP malts (relatively common ones)?

once again this list here has comparatively ridiculously high numbers:
https://blog.homebrewing.org/what-is-di ... ion-chart/
I guess the info from the Malt makers must be right as well? I dont get it
No, liquid enzymes are not required. Have a read again of the thread I sent you, it lays out a practical example of how much conversion power you require.

The lintner values you're quoting seem very low, within the link I provided is the following, which is more in line with what I would expect, values around 120-160 depending on the malt. https://blog.homebrewing.org/what-is-di ... ion-chart/

Overall I would expect about 30% of the grain bill to be malt (of some sort).
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by Storm »

Thanks Expat,

yeah I saw the list and it makes more sense to me in the way that most people seem to use this relativly high values.
On the other hand we are talking about big, international malt companies here, so its also hard for me to imagine that they screwed up such an important figure....

But in practice your numbers probably have been proofen right, and almost everybody (besides the manufaturers) lists these malts with high DP.
Dont get me wrong Iam sure you know your stuff and have a lot of expierence, Iam just baffled that they got their numbers so wrong...

Strange, but I guess I will lower the amount of malt in my future mashes and see the result :)
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Re: How does Bourbon work?

Post by bluefish_dist »

Honestly bourbon is a pain to do as a grain out spirit. For me I worked with a recipe from another me ever here who suggested a overnight mash with enzymes. I did the same and it sparged ok. I used cracked corn at no more than 55%. Hitemp 2xl at 180, then when cooled to 150, add malt and amylo 300, sit until morning, then pump to fermenter and pitch. I did some flaked corn and it stuck the sparge every time. I understand why people do grain in for bourbon.
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