Fermenting Vessels

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
BlueSasquatch
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:00 am
Location: Midwest

Fermenting Vessels

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Have about 8 food-grade buckets that I added an airlock to the lids to serve as my main fermenters, once the mash cools down to about 140-150F (3/8" hole with grommet, standard airlock)

Picked up recently, two 13-Gallon Blue Food-Grade Drums, cleaned them out the other day with some oxy-clean, they have nice ring-clamp seals. Trying to figure how I should airlock these? Blow-Tube rather than the small standard home-brew airlock? What size tube and I assume just a matching sized grommet, like the bucket method?

Also on-deck is a 30 gallon barrel which may not be worth it, seems like I'll be unable to open the top easily, other than these two bungholes on it, so it may get used for a different project.

Then I've got two 50 gallons, may end up using one as a water reservoir for the condensers, the other I'm wanting to steam-mash with, other threads on here that have used them with much success.

Image


I suppose my questions are; What size do you jump from a homebrew airlock, to a blow-down tube? Are there other options? And what about open to the atmosphere? If you have say a 2" hole in the lid, it would be open just enough for excess gas to escape but the internal head space would likely still be CO2.

What sizes do uniformity through the outside and center for temperatures, become more of a concern? I know with any volume, there is likely a temperature gradient between the center and the outside of the mash, but at 5 gallons it seems to be ignored. I've read about 50 gallon fermentors having immersion heaters to maintain a healthy temp.

I imagine anything under that 30gallon will be stored inside, internal house closet, for constant temps. I have an old deep freeze that I could use for a larger fermenting chamber, in the garage/shop if need be, the 50 gal drums seem to usually just get wrapped in blankets.
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3623
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I don't think any of them need airlocks for an active ferment but if you're racking off and storing the liquid for a little (or a longer) while topped up containers with airlocks become more important... Probably good for a couple weeks maybe longer?

Cheers,
j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3980
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Deplorable »

There is a thread somewhere on here. Someone made an airlock out of PVC fittings and a ping-pong ball that will screw into the bungs on the lid, or you can drill a hole if you don't have a bung hole, and use a bulkhead fitting.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4656
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by The Baker »

I have used 20 litre cubies (from commercial use).
Free.
Not that the size makes any difference to this...
I drill a hole in the cap or the lid, so that a plastic tube is a firm fit; have to pull it through.
Then sit the end of the tube in a little bucket of water; may need to weight it or tie it down.
Works fine.
Doesn't disintegrate over time, nor cost much; compared with commercial airlocks.
I have used as many as eight of the cubies, with an upside down one in the middle to support the little water bucket;
tied the ends of the tubes together so they didn't fall out.

Geoff
The Baker
RocketSurgeon
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:15 pm

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by RocketSurgeon »

I have two 55 gal food grade blues in use as fermenters, and the fermentation is so vigorous a typical small, water filled, type would run dry in a few hours.

I used the 2 inch bung in the lid, which fits a standard hose thread, to add a male garden hose quick-disconnect port. I plug a 5 ft. garden hose with a quick disconnect on the upper end to attach to the vessel lid. I blow down through the hose to a water filled 1 gallon jug.

It works like a charm.
Not to get technical, but according to chemistry alcohol is a solution.
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3980
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Deplorable »

Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
RocketSurgeon
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:15 pm

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by RocketSurgeon »

I have two 55 gal food grade blues in use as fermenters, and the fermentation is so vigorous a typical small water filled type would run dry in a few hours.

I used the 2 inch bung in the lid, which fits a standard hose thread, to add a male garden hose quick-disconnect port. I plug a 5 ft. garden hose with a quick disconnect on the upper end to attach to the vessel lid. I blow down through the hose to a water filled 1 gallon jug.

It works like a charm.

Opps...computer glitch = double post.
Last edited by RocketSurgeon on Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not to get technical, but according to chemistry alcohol is a solution.
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3623
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by jonnys_spirit »

An active ferment creates a continuous blanket of CO2 which is heavier than air and keeps the headspace filled up with co2 so you really don’t need an airlock during ferment anyway. Next time you ferment and open it up just stick your head in and take a big wiff. The CO2 will burn your nose a bit so not a huge inhale.

The natural co2 blanket works with the lid loose or even better just a towel over the top.

Cheers!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13038
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by NZChris »

With large fermenters, airlocks can be a bit of a problem. I just had a 55 gallon fermenter lift the towel and overflow onto the floor. If it had had some type of airlock it could have been quite a fountain, but it gently overflowed fruit pulp onto the garage floor and was easily cleaned up.
My first airlocked rum wash hit the ceiling and had dried onto every wall and appliance in our laundry by the time we got home from our holiday.
User avatar
BlueSasquatch
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:00 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Some great info here, thanks everyone for sharing! Deplorable, that link is excellent, gives me alot of ideas for how to move forward, Marking fill lines would be great, a drain-port isn't a bad idea but I'm not sure with the AG mashes I've done, that they settle out much in the end, seem to get plenty of mid and top level floaters too, and gravity flow would work well until you get closer to the bottom and have to be down even lower. May end up making a cart/wheels for the barrels, to get them a bit higher up, and ease of moving them. I've heard about the cold concrete floor messing with ferment temps.

I like the pingpong ball PVC fitting airlocks in the link shared, it's not a wet airlock, which I don't think matters a ton, it's better than nothing but maybe not as good as a tube with water, depends where one stands on the airlocks in general.

I would agree that an active ferment probably doesn't need an airlock if the environment it is stored in, is a cleaner one, I've done the bourbon trail in Kentucky and pretty much all the huge ferment vessels are open to the air, and the tours funny enough.


What about proper heat temps? Outside of the ferment for a 55gal is likely colder than the dead middle, could fermenting 55 gallons ever cause the temps to rise enough to become an issue? Seems like most just wrap blankets around said barrels to keep the temps up, but Im sure other people have measured the temps extensively. That's what Is nice about the forums, there are people who just wing it and there are people who do quite a bit of science and math.
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
User avatar
Dr Griz
Bootlegger
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:08 pm
Location: Stowed away aboard the flagship of a pirate zeppelin armada

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Dr Griz »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:05 am What about proper heat temps? Outside of the ferment for a 55gal is likely colder than the dead middle, could fermenting 55 gallons ever cause the temps to rise enough to become an issue? Seems like most just wrap blankets around said barrels to keep the temps up, but Im sure other people have measured the temps extensively. That's what Is nice about the forums, there are people who just wing it and there are people who do quite a bit of science and math.
I'd like to second BlueSasquatch's question here: I've recently started using some larger HDPE barrels (larger than my 7 gallon beer buckets, anyway) with lock-on lids. I drilled a hole for a standard bubbler, but found that it wasn't even needed -- without any kind of gasket, the lid seems to leak enough that the bubbler never gets bubbling, even when the fermentation is at peak. :econfused:

But what y'al have said gets me thinking that the "peak" fermentation in my 65 degree F basement is nothing like what folks are running at hotter temps -- so the question is how do y'all maintain higher temps in larger fermenters. My FermWrap works a treat on 7 gallon buckets (even when I'm using kveik), but I can't imagine it would do anything for a 20-gallon bucket.

So how do you folks do it? Right now, I'm kinda stuck using pretty bland (lower temp) yeasts in my larger ferments -- I'd love to be able to toss some esters from a hot ferment into my wash!
qui bene bibit est beatus
User avatar
S-Cackalacky
retired
Posts: 5990
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by S-Cackalacky »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:36 pm An active ferment creates a continuous blanket of CO2 which is heavier than air and keeps the headspace filled up with co2 so you really don’t need an airlock during ferment anyway. Next time you ferment and open it up just stick your head in and take a big wiff. The CO2 will burn your nose a bit so not a huge inhale.

The natural co2 blanket works with the lid loose or even better just a towel over the top.

Cheers!
-j
What j_s said.

I use the loose lid method. When I do apple brandies, I like to leave the must in the fermenter for several months (up to 6). If I feel like I might have lost the CO2 blanket, I just pitch a cup or so of simple syrup to kick off fermentation again to reestablish the blanket. The trick is to just leave it alone so that the CO2 stays in place.
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3980
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Deplorable »

My 25 gallon ferments in a 30 gallon barrel perform well in the cooler months in the garage with a simple heating pad under the barrel connected to an inkbird temp controller.
I wrap the barrel in reflectix, blankets and a sleeping bag as needed to minimize heat loss.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
User avatar
ochiburi
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed May 19, 2021 9:20 am
Location: Murcia, Spain

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by ochiburi »

I use wide bore blow off tubes in my big fermenters - 1300L but this is to minimise the risk from high kreusen overflowing and blocking up an air lock and causing massive pressure build up inside an otherwise sealed stainless steel FV. With the buckets and barrels shown, pretty much any sized tube from 3/8" will be OK. The worst that can happen is the lid pops off / bung pops out and some yeasty foam goes to the floor! IMHO there is no real difference between a commercially produced air lock and a bung with a tube going into a bucket/jar of water.
anotherplanetbrewing.com
User avatar
BlueSasquatch
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:00 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Deplorable shared a thread by DetroitDIY that I followed to make some 2" threaded airlocks, mainly for the 15 gallon barrels, and the 30 I suppose. For the 50 I may not use an airlock, but it's nice to have an easy option if I want one. Say the ferment is done but I can't distill for a few weeks, then an airlock makes some sense to me.

Detroit cut 50% off the cap which seems to work well, but he mentioned debris could get in, and that he would cut slots in the side. I just went with drilling holes, but I do question the chances of it plugging, if an overflow situation were to occur.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
User avatar
Dr Griz
Bootlegger
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:08 pm
Location: Stowed away aboard the flagship of a pirate zeppelin armada

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Dr Griz »

Deplorable wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:13 am My 25 gallon ferments in a 30 gallon barrel perform well in the cooler months in the garage with a simple heating pad under the barrel connected to an inkbird temp controller.
I wrap the barrel in reflectix, blankets and a sleeping bag as needed to minimize heat loss.
Thanks! I reckon I'll give it a try.
qui bene bibit est beatus
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13038
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by NZChris »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:05 am What about proper heat temps? Outside of the ferment for a 55gal is likely colder than the dead middle, could fermenting 55 gallons ever cause the temps to rise enough to become an issue? Seems like most just wrap blankets around said barrels to keep the temps up, but Im sure other people have measured the temps extensively. That's what Is nice about the forums, there are people who just wing it and there are people who do quite a bit of science and math.
Convection will take care of the temperature throughout the barrel unless it has a thick cap that needs pushing.

For my large fermenters, I use insulation and both heating and cooling, controlled by the same STC-1000 controller, depending on the weather, season and yeast activity. Cooling can be as simple as pointing a fan at a gap in the insulation. I don't usually set up both unless I'm expecting trouble, or won't be around for a few days to keep an eye on it.

A few days ago I had to remove all of the insulation and point a fan at it after it overshot the target temperature overnight without a cooling fan plugged into the controller. I had thought about plugging in a fan, but guessed that it would be ok without it :oops: , then had to clean up the mess the next morning after it had gone feral and overflowed.
Chucker
Swill Maker
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:05 am

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Chucker »

Commercial guys just use open top. I use a 55 gal drum with the lid and ring but just loosen the bung a bit. It keeps the top blanketed just fine in co2.
If it’s warm I have little recourse to temp control. If it’s cool I cover it with a couple of old blankets and set the barrel on a low-wattage seed mat to try and input a little warmth. A friend built an insulated box for his that he blows a little heater into but his area is sort of attached to the house and doesn’t get as cold. Neither of us fills the drum beyond 40 gal so there is quite a bit of headspace of the ferment went crazy.
User avatar
BlueSasquatch
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:00 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Follow up question for you guys with the 55 gal drums.

How long before you pitch your yeast? Do you all use immersion chillers? I'm starting to think some of the puke-smell I get every 10 mashes or so, is due to the 10 hours it can take for a bucket to cool down to pitch temps.
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Expat »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:18 am Follow up question for you guys with the 55 gal drums.

How long before you pitch your yeast? Do you all use immersion chillers? I'm starting to think some of the puke-smell I get every 10 mashes or so, is due to the 10 hours it can take for a bucket to cool down to pitch temps.
Once the temp gets down closer to 130, immersion chiller goes in, 10 minutes down to pitch temp. Got burned previously with the puke, never again.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
BlueSasquatch
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:00 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Expat wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:21 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:18 am Follow up question for you guys with the 55 gal drums.

How long before you pitch your yeast? Do you all use immersion chillers? I'm starting to think some of the puke-smell I get every 10 mashes or so, is due to the 10 hours it can take for a bucket to cool down to pitch temps.
Once the temp gets down closer to 130, immersion chiller goes in, 10 minutes down to pitch temp. Got burned previously with the puke, never again.
I got a puke this weekend from some Barley I think. Just 5-gallon buckets. Last year I had a puke, thought it was sanitation related but now I think it's the 10 hours it takes in the summer to drop temps. Ended up distilling and oaking the puke, lost any traces to my senses after the stripping run, so It's not a death sentence IMO, but probably best to be avoided, unless you specifically want it. (have read rums, other sours, etc find it useful)

10 minutes in a 55 gallon drum to pitch temp? That seems unreal, I tried an immersion chiller in a 5-gal bucket and it still took like an hour. Got a photo of this beast you use?
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Expat »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:25 am
Expat wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:21 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:18 am Follow up question for you guys with the 55 gal drums.

How long before you pitch your yeast? Do you all use immersion chillers? I'm starting to think some of the puke-smell I get every 10 mashes or so, is due to the 10 hours it can take for a bucket to cool down to pitch temps.
Once the temp gets down closer to 130, immersion chiller goes in, 10 minutes down to pitch temp. Got burned previously with the puke, never again.
I got a puke this weekend from some Barley I think. Just 5-gallon buckets. Last year I had a puke, thought it was sanitation related but now I think it's the 10 hours it takes in the summer to drop temps. Ended up distilling and oaking the puke, lost any traces to my senses after the stripping run, so It's not a death sentence IMO, but probably best to be avoided, unless you specifically want it. (have read rums, other sours, etc find it useful)

10 minutes in a 55 gallon drum to pitch temp? That seems unreal, I tried an immersion chiller in a 5-gal bucket and it still took like an hour. Got a photo of this beast you use?
50' of 3/8" soft copper coiled is all it is.
Water is running 60-65f depending on the time of year, the key is keeping the mash moving for which a paddle mixer works great. Its fast enough that I can watch the temp drop on the thermal probe. Very effective.

Here's a pick from when I was building it.
IMG_20190527_165316_copy_600x800_1.jpg
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3980
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Deplorable »

Thats a monster! My 25'×1/2" coiled wort chiller takes about 15 to 20 minutes in 25 gallons to go from 130 to 75°f with constant agitation or stirring.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
User avatar
BlueSasquatch
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:00 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Expat, how did you find the 3/8 copper was to work with? Any tips/tricks for making a coil like yours?
Do you let the coil settle to the bottom of the barrel? It doesn't quite look tall enough to span the whole thing?
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
User avatar
Expat
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2245
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Fermenting Vessels

Post by Expat »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:40 am Expat, how did you find the 3/8 copper was to work with? Any tips/tricks for making a coil like yours?
Do you let the coil settle to the bottom of the barrel? It doesn't quite look tall enough to span the whole thing?
The soft copper is really easy to work with in its factory annealed state.

Re tips, that's the easy part. I wanted the final result to sit inside a standard depot orange bucket for cleaning/storage, so I used the small depot bucket as a crude template, and just slide it off the bucket as it starts to grow. Easy easy. Keep an eye on the amount of pipe remaining and when you can see you're nearly at the end bend it up to form your end. I used some large gauge bare grounding wire to stiffen and protect the sides. I cut down a washing machine supply hose for a fitting, ID of the hose is an exact fit for the OD of the copper, clamp and done.

No, it doesn't span over the barrel, my design hangs over the side using the feed/drain tubes like a hook. I've set the height so its about mid barrel, leaving me plenty of space below for me to run my handle mixer. The amount of churn created by the mixer sets the upper limit on how efficient it can work, but basically it outputs really hot no matter how much cold water I push through it.

Hope that helps.
_____________________
EXPAT

Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
Post Reply