Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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petegwright
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Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

Apologies as I haven't interacted in this forum much, despite using the incredible resource of knowledge and advice laid down in the many posts by all that frequent.

I have been busy improving my set up among getting married and navigating COVID lock-downs.
Previously I had been using a converted pressure cooker for distillation of mostly sugar washes purely to build a level of experience and understanding of the process, but ultimately I am hoping to produce a Whiskey, so needed to familiarize myself with the mash process.

After talking with a Home brewing buddy of mine, I've inherited and constructed a mash set up and have performed a trial run, and I thought it would be a good idea to come here and ensure that this process is appropriate and complete!

The set up is two vessels (Beer Kegs), one working as a Kettle and the other as a Mash Tun, both as full as they can be.
The Kettle has a worm running through it, with ball valve outlets through the Keg sides, and piping routing through a pump and into the Mash Tun through some more ball valves.
There is an RTD temperature sensor on the worm Input to Kettle, and another on the Mash Tun Input, which input to a PID controller that maintains a constant temperature through an immersion heater in the Kettle.

Diagram to supplement my awful description -
image.png

The process I followed on my trial run is as follows;
  • Heat water to 67c in Mash Tun (Both sensors reading 67c)
  • Add 5.2 Stabilizer to Mash Water in appropriate dosage, confirming with PH test strip
  • Add Grains to Mash Tun
  • 90 Minute Saccharification Rest, using Mash Paddle for 5 Minutes every 10 minutes
  • Transfer to Fermentation Vessel with some Grains for Fermenting on Grain
  • Top up volume with Cool water (Lots of volume lost in Grist Absorption)
  • Left to cool in Fermenter to 22c before adding yeast
Following this process I ended up with an SG of 1.051, from an 10KG grain bill.
I feel that the water/grist ratio may have been too low, however I am happy with a potential 5/6% ABV mash.
Also, I am not sure what effect "Topping up" my final mash volume will have, I felt I needed more volume to ensure a healthy charge for the stripping run.

I'm looking for opportunities to improve this process, or if there's anywhere that i've gone very wrong or have missed something etc.
Please advise!
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Ben
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Ben »

Add batch sparging to your regimen to improve the output. This should largely replace your top up water. Are you vorlaufing?

What is the batch size? What are the grains? Without a mash bill it is hard to say what is causing your efficiency.Also how is it ground. Is this a false bottom or braid set up?

Skip the mash paddle every 5 minutes. Mash in, stir it well make sure there are no clumps, let it sit for 10 minutes and give it one more stir. That is it until mash out. You are using indirect heat so there is no need to constantly stir.

Skip the 5.2, get a water report and make the correct adjustments.
:)
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by still_stirrin »

Good luck with the recirculation infusion mashing (RIMS) when you use a high corn grist recipe. Corn will plug about any system. It can be done, but you’ll have many “choice words” before you get there.

If it were me, I’d put the RIMS coil in the mash tun and circulate water through the system rather than try to pump the wort through the hot liquor tank. Water will pump a lot easier than the sticky, syrupy wort. And ultimately you’re trying to manage the temperature steps of the mash tun with the heat addition from the hot liquor tank.
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by jonnys_spirit »

For some other mash options look up the Large Batch and No Boil processes here..

Basically add boiling water to corn meal/flour + high temp enzymes (to thin it out) and mix well - this gelatinizes the corn. Then let temp drop to 150*F and add malts/enzymes... Let temp drop to 85*F and pitch yeast. Ferment on-grain for a week or two then rack & squeeze grains (paint strainer bag).

Do three strip runs to total low wine ABV of 25%abv then combine low wines for your spirit run - Collect in 25-30 numbered jars and blend your chosen fractions for heads/hearts/tails.

Cheers and good luck!
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————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by The Baker »

Congratulations to yourself and your lady.

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Ben
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Ben »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:30 am Good luck with the recirculation infusion mashing (RIMS) when you use a high corn grist recipe. Corn will plug about any system. It can be done, but you’ll have many “choice words” before you get there.

If it were me, I’d put the RIMS coil in the mash tun and circulate water through the system rather than try to pump the wort through the hot liquor tank. Water will pump a lot easier than the sticky, syrupy wort. And ultimately you’re trying to manage the temperature steps of the mash tun with the heat addition from the hot liquor tank.
ss
Add a half ounce of rice hulls per pound of corn when you add your grain. I have no issues with sticking at 75% corn running a herms setup, pushing the corn mash through the HLT coil, and can vorlauf or run off at full speed.
:)
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Demy »

A tip that I feel like saying is, if you need water for dilution meke a sparge by passing water through your mash, so you will recover left sugars.
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Windy City »

Ben wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:44 am
still_stirrin wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:30 am Good luck with the recirculation infusion mashing (RIMS) when you use a high corn grist recipe. Corn will plug about any system. It can be done, but you’ll have many “choice words” before you get there.

If it were me, I’d put the RIMS coil in the mash tun and circulate water through the system rather than try to pump the wort through the hot liquor tank. Water will pump a lot easier than the sticky, syrupy wort. And ultimately you’re trying to manage the temperature steps of the mash tun with the heat addition from the hot liquor tank.
ss
Add a half ounce of rice hulls per pound of corn when you add your grain. I have no issues with sticking at 75% corn running a herms setup, pushing the corn mash through the HLT coil, and can vorlauf or run off at full speed.
+1 on rice hulls
I used a 55 gallon blichman boilmaker pot with their false bottom for years with the use of a generous amount of rice hulls I had no problems. This included many bourbons made with flaked maize.
High temperature enzymes also helped break everything down for better flow.
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petegwright
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

Ben wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:21 am Add batch sparging to your regimen to improve the output. This should largely replace your top up water. Are you vorlaufing?
Batch sparging, interesting!
What i'm essentially doing is mash infusion and the set up I have doesn't really allow for sparging in any meaningful way.
I presume I could batch infusion mash for a longer period of time?
Ben wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:21 am What is the batch size? What are the grains? Without a mash bill it is hard to say what is causing your efficiency.Also how is it ground. Is this a false bottom or braid set up?
Hoping for a 40L charge for a 50L Pot Still.
All Barley Malt, crushed, 10KG grain bill
(Horribly inefficient I realise, although I am happy with the potential ABV in the end, I think I could potentially drop the grain bill to maybe 8KG and have the same results, what do you think?)
No false bottom, literally just a keg with a gauze over the outlet to worm (see diagram), this is early days and all a bit "ghetto" at the moment.
I'm trying to become familiar with the processes and keep practicing before investing in a proper set up a la Grainfather etc.
Ben wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:21 am Skip the mash paddle every 5 minutes. Mash in, stir it well make sure there are no clumps, let it sit for 10 minutes and give it one more stir. That is it until mash out. You are using indirect heat so there is no need to constantly stir.
Message received, I can certainly do less work!
Ben wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:21 am Skip the 5.2, get a water report and make the correct adjustments.
I plan on this in the future, but for my own learning is there any reason I wouldn't want to just stick with the 5.2?
Thankyou for the feedback and help with this!
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:30 am Good luck with the recirculation infusion mashing (RIMS) when you use a high corn grist recipe. Corn will plug about any system. It can be done, but you’ll have many “choice words” before you get there.
I may have confused things using the word "grist", this is a full Barley Malt grain bill, crushed. I haven't attempted corn yet but i'd like to in the future!
still_stirrin wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:30 am If it were me, I’d put the RIMS coil in the mash tun and circulate water through the system rather than try to pump the wort through the hot liquor tank. Water will pump a lot easier than the sticky, syrupy wort. And ultimately you’re trying to manage the temperature steps of the mash tun with the heat addition from the hot liquor tank.
ss
Very good point! Most of this stuff was inherited from a buddy that used it fairly successfully for Homebrewing, and its unfortunately not possible to do things that way around although i'm sure I could potentially make something to do this.
Thankyou!
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Ben
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Ben »

A cheap ss braid in the bottom of the mash tun would improve your process immensely. $4 investment... take a look at this DIY http://www.donosborn.com/homebrew/mashtun.htm, you could also opt for one of the ~$10 bazooka screens. I ran one of the SS braids for a couple years when I started brewing beer. False bottom is nicer, but if you are on a budget the other options work. I think the biggest change you will see is a speed improvement on your take off. 10 kilos in 40 liters should get you to around 1.065 og if you hit 80% efficiency.

Your use of grist was correct.
:)
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by greggn »

petegwright wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:37 am
this is a full Barley Malt grain bill, crushed.
Who milled your barley ... you or a beer brewer/brew shop ? If only crushed/cracked then you'll gain efficiency by milling to near-flour consistency.
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petegwright
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

Ben wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:45 am A cheap ss braid in the bottom of the mash tun would improve your process immensely. $4 investment... take a look at this DIY http://www.donosborn.com/homebrew/mashtun.htm, you could also opt for one of the ~$10 bazooka screens. I ran one of the SS braids for a couple years when I started brewing beer. False bottom is nicer, but if you are on a budget the other options work. I think the biggest change you will see is a speed improvement on your take off. 10 kilos in 40 liters should get you to around 1.065 og if you hit 80% efficiency.

Your use of grist was correct.
I reckon I can rig something up like this, thankyou!
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

greggn wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:35 am
petegwright wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:37 am
this is a full Barley Malt grain bill, crushed.
Who milled your barley ... you or a beer brewer/brew shop ? If only crushed/cracked then you'll gain efficiency by milling to near-flour consistency.
Brew shop, are there any draw backs to having a finer consistency?
I am sure they would do that for me if I asked.
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Ben »

https://byo.com/article/the-perfect-crush/

Most of the time the brew shop crushes are decent. It used to be they would run coarser settings in the mills in an effort to get people to buy more, and to speed things up at the mill. Too fine will end up in stuck mash, too coarse lowers efficiency. But if you aren't sparging you aren't going to get good efficiency regardless of the crush.
:)
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

I think I can probably make something up to enable a sparge, I’m thinking a hoop with holes in...

In-efficiencies aside I am fairly happy with the potential ABV of the mash I’ve ended up with, I never wanted to stress the yeast chasing high SG washes.

I would like to be able to achieve the same SG with a lower weight grain bill however, reckon that’s possible?
I’m getting some stuff together to make a bazooka screen.
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by greggn »

petegwright wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:12 am
I would like to be able to achieve the same SG with a lower weight grain bill however, reckon that’s possible?

A finer grind will help you in one of two ways ...
  • improve your OG from 1.051 to somewhere closer to 1.060 - 1.062
  • achieve that same 1.051 while using a smaller grain bill
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Ben »

You could use less grain. There is such a thing as over extraction where some bad stuff starts to come off. I tune my system to hit about 88% on barley, that's where I like the product the best.

Don't mess with the crush until you have optimized the rest of your system, it may be fine where it is. Stuck mash from too fine of a crush is no fun.
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

Thankyou for the advice all.

Produced my second mash with a Bazooka screen, slightly lower total grain bill and achieved an SG of 1.048 which I’m more than happy with currently.

The stripping run of the previous mash produced a decent amount of low wines, although there was a little bit of sediment carried over due to some puking (slight over fill of charge)
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by Ben »

Congrats on your success!
:)
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Re: Mash Process, Recommendations and Advice Wanted

Post by petegwright »

Ben wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:05 am Congrats on your success!
Thankyou!
I’m hoping to improve the set up I have over the coming months, Thank-you all for your good advice with how to improve things.
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