Water addition after gelatinization

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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30xs
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Water addition after gelatinization

Post by 30xs »

I’ve done a couple all grain ferments and the last one I did I was able to do 100# of grains and pour 25 gallons of water over them and adding high temp alpha. Boiled more water and added to the slurry. My question is if I can hydrate all the grain with the first addition could I just add remaining water to help hit the gluco temps, and yeast temps faster? Municipal water with a ph of 7. Haven’t had to adjust anything during the mashes, but will diluting everything throw off ph and cause problems? Figured I’d see if anyone else has tried it in the past with success, or failure?
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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Now your starting to sound like a fellow lazy man. :lol:
Yes, I've done it that way a couple times and it works.
I've heard tell that Alpha enzymes even likes a thick mash.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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shadylane wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:49 pm Now your starting to sound like a fellow lazy man. :lol:
Yes, I've done it that way a couple times and it works.
I've heard tell that Alpha enzymes even likes a thick mash.
We aren’t lazy, we’re efficient. :lol: :lol:

Thanks for confirming that it will work. That saves a bunch of time both heating water and waiting for it to cool back down.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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Thanks, SCD. I had read that post a while back, which caused the enzyme purchase. Didn’t do all grain for a while and just double checked the first page or so of that thread to confirm protocol. Thanks for the write up that started me down the all grain rabbit hole.

Next rabbit hole will be learning to malt. I’m thinking a red olive barrel roller setup should allow a full sack malting. Figuring out a drying and kilning requirements for a batch that big, at least drying. Kilning can be done at smaller portions, if needed.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

Post by Truckinbutch »

I normally cook 60# of grain in 25 gallons of water on propane with enzymes and dilute with water to ferment 40 gallons at a time . been working well for me .
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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I tried getting too lazy on my protocol. I boiled water (25 gal) and dumped on corn. Added 10 gallon to cool 5 hours later (132) added gluco. Didn’t check ph. Added 10 more gallon to get me to the volume for 2 pounds per gallon and still at 117. Waited till the next morning and checked SG 1.040. I checked the Ph and it was 6.5. Added a heaping tablespoon of citric and stirred and measured 6.0. Then I added a little more gluco and let it ride 5 more hours. Tested out about 1.055.

I ground my corn using my AMA grinder with the 3mm plate. Either my enzymes are getting older, or I need to go to flour for better numbers. I hit the same last time using the next larger hole size (about 3/16ish).

Either way it’s happily bubbling away and I’ll take what I get when it’s finished.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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30xs wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:19 pm I checked the Ph and it was 6.5. Added a heaping tablespoon of citric and stirred and measured 6.0. Then I added a little more gluco and let it ride 5 more hours. Tested out about 1.055.

You're going to need to drop that pH even lower as per the SEB specs ...

the optimum pH range is pH 2.8 - 5.5. pH inactivation occurs at a pH below pH 2.5 or above pH 5.5
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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greggn wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:20 am
30xs wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:19 pm I checked the Ph and it was 6.5. Added a heaping tablespoon of citric and stirred and measured 6.0. Then I added a little more gluco and let it ride 5 more hours. Tested out about 1.055.

You're going to need to drop that pH even lower as per the SEB specs ...

the optimum pH range is pH 2.8 - 5.5. pH inactivation occurs at a pH below pH 2.5 or above pH 5.5
The bottle I ordered of Ferm solutions didn’t come with specs. When I called them they had quoted optimum being 5.5-6.5 Ph and temps of 90-110.

I questioned those numbers but the guy seemed adamant that they were correct. I think I’ve had 1.050-1.055 all three times. I either need to wrap to hold heat longer, or play with Ph.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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30xs wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:47 am

The bottle I ordered of Ferm solutions didn’t come with specs. When I called them they had quoted optimum being 5.5-6.5 Ph and temps of 90-110.

I questioned those numbers but the guy seemed adamant that they were correct. I think I’ve had 1.050-1.055 all three times. I either need to wrap to hold heat longer, or play with Ph.

Given the improbability of Ferm Solutions creating the same product name/ID as Angel did I think it's safe to say that they buy GA-150 from Angel ... and Angel's spec says:

Working pH Range Ideal pH 3.0 to 5.0
Working Temperature Range Ideal Temp 55~60°C

They also list optimum conditions as ...

The recommended for optimum industry operation condition is temperature 58~62°C, pH4.0-4.5
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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Thanks for the info. You are probably correct about it being rebadged product from another supplier. I’ll try the next round keeping the ph in those ranges and see how it goes. I’d read about people hitting 1.065 at 1.8 pounds per gallon. I’ve been doing 2 pounds per and kept falling a little short.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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30xs wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:25 pm Thanks for the info. You are probably correct about it being rebadged product from another supplier. I’ll try the next round keeping the ph in those ranges and see how it goes. I’d read about people hitting 1.065 at 1.8 pounds per gallon. I’ve been doing 2 pounds per and kept falling a little short.

I began seeing a big improvement in conversions when I began adding 1 - 2 tbls of citric acid a bit before the gluco.

... and I'm using Ferm Solutions enzymes, too.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

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greggn wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:47 pm
30xs wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:25 pm Thanks for the info. You are probably correct about it being rebadged product from another supplier. I’ll try the next round keeping the ph in those ranges and see how it goes. I’d read about people hitting 1.065 at 1.8 pounds per gallon. I’ve been doing 2 pounds per and kept falling a little short.

I began seeing a big improvement in conversions when I began adding 1 - 2 tbls of citric acid a bit before the gluco.

... and I'm using Ferm Solutions enzymes, too.
Well that’s very similar. The next morning when I checked to see if I was at pitch temp I pulled a sample. 109 degrees, 1.040 SG, and 6.5ph. In a Hail Mary attempt I tossed a heaping spoon of citrus, stirred and 6.0. Added more gluco and waked away. Few hours later 98 degrees and reading 1.050. Acid seemed to help me substantially.
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Re: Water addition after gelatinization

Post by shadylane »

Some times nature takes care of things for us.
Once fermentation starts, pH will begin dropping into the range Gluco likes.
Conversion of dextrins into fermentable sugar will be happening while fermentation is taking place.


On a side note.
Be careful, not to be deceived by initial specific gravity readings.
Yeast only cares about how much of that is fermentable.
What counts is the difference between the beginning and final SG. :wink:
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