All Grain Bourbon

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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hawkwing
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All Grain Bourbon

Post by hawkwing »

I'm working on an all grain bourbon. I have flaked corn but next time I'll likely get corn from the feed store and buy a corona mill. Would be much cheaper in the long run. This is flaked corn (70%), red wheat malt(16%), and 2 row barley malt (14%). I also added powdered enzymes to be sure as it's not distillers malt. I added alfa and gluco amylase. I added some citric acid to adjust the pH. I plan to use some backset in the next batches. It was fermented on the grain using SafAle US-05. I tried to put it in my cooler with the mesh false bottom but it was stuck and wouldn't filter. I tried my Breville high speed juicer and it made a mess. So I used my Kuvings Masticating Juicer and the waste came out really dry. It took about 20-30 minutes to juice. I didn't time it well. I'm not yet sure how much this will settle and if I will just have to put the sludge in the boiler too. If that's the case I'm not sure if it was worth juicing for one ice cream pail of chaff.

I'm not sure if I will do the stripping runs in my copper alembic or in my air still. The air still is nice because I can set it on my coffee table and watch TV. It's just going to be 7 runs. I have modified my air still to use an SCR to turn down the power. I had to do this to prevent puking when running rum and even a potato vodka.

I have a 23L oak barrel I'm working towards filling.

I welcome any questions or pointers.
Mashing
Mashing
Mashing
Mashing
Fermenting
Fermenting
Juicing
Juicing
Waste from juicing
Waste from juicing
Settling after juicing
Settling after juicing
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Deplorable
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by Deplorable »

What was the volume of your mash?
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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It was targeted at 5 gal. I probably have about 25L after juicing.

9lbs 3.9oz of flaked corn
2lbs 1.8oz red wheat malt
1lbs 13.6oz pale male
I was going to use 8.4 gal of water calculated using Beersmith. However I didn't sparge it like I would for beer and my pot was too full. That pot was about 25-30L.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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Ferment on grain, you'll find it easier to deal with the grain after the sugars have been converted to alcohol. 2 to 2.5 pounds per gallon of grain.
Scale the Easy Large Batch Mashing process to fit your equipment.
One of them 10 gallon igloo drink coolers should be fine for a still your size. You can boil enough water in your 25L pot to add hot water to your grain in the cooler. Ferment in the cooler, on the grains. Then squeeze the grains dry with cheese cloth bags or a brew in a bag. and let the murky beer clear, and rack it off the yeast bed. You should get two stripping runs from that. I think I read that you have a 20L alembic. is that correct?
Many here who make larger ferments use a mop wringer bucket to squeeze the grains dry. Its efficient and makes quick work of 50 pounds of grain.
Even a food grade plastic bucket and an old blanket for insulation is an effective on grain fermenting vessel. Get a couple of them and heat your water on the the stove and add it to the grains in the bucket. Just remember to leave plenty of headspace in the bucket so it doesnt overflow.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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I figured that after I fermented on the grains. I actually did the mast in the pot and covered it with a blanket. I could easily heat it and stir while doing so to hit the next target temperature. It worked really well. When using a brew in a bag do you you get a lot of solids in the the mash like I have after juicing? The juicer just seems easier unless I'm missing something. I have several 30L primary fermenters and a larger 80L or so. Once I have the backset I'll probably start several batches at once.

Yes I have a 20L alembic.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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When I ferment on grain, after fermentation is complete, I rack the clear beer off the grain bed and scoop the grains into the bag a few quarts at a time and squeeze them dry. Dump the bag and repeat. Keep reading, searching, and reading, the answers you seek are all here. :wink:
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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The grain bed was about 90% of the volume so not really worth racking 10% out. Not sure I did all grain are you talking about a grain sugar mix?
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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All grain, no sugar, or even doing a sugar head on grain. The same principal applies.
If you ferment on the grain, after all fermentation activity stops and the wash clears, you should have about half of the volume of the fermenter as clear distillers beer. The other half will be in the grain. You can squeeze most of it out. Using liquid enzymes conversion will continue even during fermentation, increasing your yield slightly. My 30 gallon fermenter filled with 50 pounds of milled grains and 21.5 gallons of water comes to about 2.5 inches below the lip. When fermentation is complete and the beer clears, I'll rack about 10 gallons of clear beer off the top. Then scoop about 3 quarts if slop into a paint strainer bag and squeeze all the liquid out that I can repeating until I've squeezed all of the grain. I'll get another 10 gallons of murky beer. Let that settle in a cool place for a week or more and the yeast and flour compress in the bottom of the buckets. Siphon that off into the still and run it.

Squeezing the fermented grain is a lot easier than trying to squeeze it when it's sticky.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by hawkwing »

What was your grain bill? I only had a few inches of clear beer on top of the grain. Not sure why it would be so different.

How low do you run the ABV on the stripping run?
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by Sporacle »

:D Deplorable is referring to fermenting on the grain with the final volume of water added, it looks like you squeezed then added more water, is that right?
Strip till cloudy and nearly every bit of alcohol is taken.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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I fermented fully on the grain before juicing. After fermentation I only had a few inches of clear liquid above the grain. The grain took up 75-90% of the depth of the fermenting vessel. But it seems to be running just fine in my air still. I chose to try stripping it first in there. I cut up a bunch of 1/2" copper pipe into little pieces and put in the still (about a large sour cream container full). It isn't puking and I can run it full out unlike rum. It's 750W and I can collect one wine bottle in about an hour from start of heating. The first run I collected about two wine bottles and the abv coming out was down to about 5% but that was probably too hot to be correct. I recall some instructions saying just collect 700ml for the air still. I usually collect one bottle. After mixing the two bottles and it cooled it's 20% overall. Maybe I'm taking too much?
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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It appears as though you really haven't done your homework. Put away the still, and read. You're throwing shit together and expecting good results when you have no idea what you're doing or what people are trying to feed you.
Go read.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by hawkwing »

I've read lots and produced some good stuff. I'm not a complete noob. I just had a strange result on the first run where it seemed to produce more than usual. The second and third run came out more typical. Even cloudy in the first 700ml. Anyway I just thought I'd share my project to help keep things interesting.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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Sporacle wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:58 pm :D Deplorable is referring to fermenting on the grain with the final volume of water added, it looks like you squeezed then added more water, is that right?
Strip till cloudy and nearly every bit of alcohol is taken.
I didn't add any water after squeezing (in my case through my juicer).

Interestingly the first run didn't get cloudy at the same time as the next two runs. I'm assuming it's because it's still settling after straining. I know that it wasn't going to settle enough to separate so I decided to run it.

The previous time I made whiskey was years ago and I treated it like I was making all grain beer and didn't ferment on the grain.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by hawkwing »

I finished the stripping and ended up with about a third of a carboy of 35%. I had enough backset for three more batches. I'm just mashing the third one now. The flaked corn is nice to use as it doesn't need to be cooked. Can be used in regular mashing temps. I went to 156F. Everything converted nicely and I hit my target SG of 1.070. I will probably not get flaked again due to the cost.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by subbrew »

hawkwing wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:29 am . I will probably not get flaked again due to the cost.
Are you getting feed grade flaked corn or getting it from a HBS? Feed grade flaked corn is only a couple a dollars a bag more then cracked corn. Last I bought was a year ago but it was only $11 or $12 for the fifty lb bag
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by hawkwing »

I got my from a wholesale malt distributor. $52 vs $15 for feed grade here.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by CanadianIceman »

subbrew wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:29 pm
hawkwing wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:29 am . I will probably not get flaked again due to the cost.
Are you getting feed grade flaked corn or getting it from a HBS? Feed grade flaked corn is only a couple a dollars a bag more then cracked corn. Last I bought was a year ago but it was only $11 or $12 for the fifty lb bag
I keep looking for feed grade flaked but most places only sell flaked by the ton.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by subbrew »

:) time to make a lot of bourbon.

I get mine from a local elevator which buys from local farmers and processes and bags corn and other grains.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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subbrew wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:35 pm :) time to make a lot of bourbon.

I get mine from a local elevator which buys from local farmers and processes and bags corn and other grains.
You are lucky to be in corn country.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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subbrew wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:35 pm :) time to make a lot of bourbon.

I get mine from a local elevator which buys from local farmers and processes and bags corn and other grains.
I'm still a newb working out the kinks and i would have to build a lot bigger still in order to justify buying flaked by the ton, tho i'm not ruling this option out 😉
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by dnivek73 »

I am doing my all grain bourbon right now with a grain bill of 14.4 lbs Flacked corn, 6 lbs Rye and 3.6 lbs Malted Barley. I started fermenting on grain two days ago. I check progress today and fermentation was stalling out, so I checked temp and PH. My PH was 3.6!!! I brought it back up to 5.2. What would cause such a reduction in PH. I was at 5.2 when I started.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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dnivek73 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:29 pm I am doing my all grain bourbon right now with a grain bill of 14.4 lbs Flacked corn, 6 lbs Rye and 3.6 lbs Malted Barley. I started fermenting on grain two days ago. I check progress today and fermentation was stalling out, so I checked temp and PH. My PH was 3.6!!! I brought it back up to 5.2. What would cause such a reduction in PH. I was at 5.2 when I started.
Not to be a smarta$$ but fermentation. That is a by product of fermenting, ph lowers. I am not sure of all the chemical actions that cause it. I know some is the CO2 forming carbonic acid. Do a quick forum search for oyster shell and you will get a lot of pages of hits. That seems to by the agreed upon solution, to put a bit of oyster shell (calcium carbonate) into the mash to buffer the ph.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by TwoSheds »

dnivek73 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:29 pmWhat would cause such a reduction in PH. I was at 5.2 when I started.
I've been wondering this too. @subbrew's comment about the CO2 forming carbonic acid makes sense, but are there other contributors too?

Of course, certain bacteria would make vinegar but we try to keep those little buggers out of the wash. In my experience making apple cider vinegar they're a bit slow compared to yeast too.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by dnivek73 »

@ subbrew. Ok, you are right about the oyster shells. That's something I should have done...will do next time for sure. How low in PH is too low where you would start getting off flavors because of it?
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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dnivek73 wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:09 am @ subbrew. Ok, you are right about the oyster shells. That's something I should have done...will do next time for sure. How low in PH is too low where you would start getting off flavors because of it?
Have not read much about low Ph giving off flavors, just causing the yeast to stall out. I would not worry to much about it. Spirits are not as sensitive to off flavors as beer since many potential off flavors will be left in the boiler. Not to say esters won't come over, in fact in rum you may want them to. Just not the issue it is in beer where even low levels of off compounds are very noticeable.

Did your mash come back and start working again?
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by TwoSheds »

FWIW, I had a sugar wash (slight variation on Wineo's) stall pretty hard. I didn't have any powder on hand to adjust so I just dropped in a sack of oyster shells. It took something like two weeks to even come back and start bubbling but it eventually did and finished dry. I didn't detect any off flavors in the ferment, low wines or final product (of course the final product was pretty well scrubbed through 48" of Raschig rings.)
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by hawkwing »

How much grain is required to fill a 5-6 gallon (23L) barrel?

Also is it the chaff in the grain that burns if you distill in the grain? I’m basically only removing the chaff. I was wondering if I could get away without bothering? I’m using an alembic still heated from underneath with an electric burner.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

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hawkwing wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:40 pm How much grain is required to fill a 5-6 gallon (23L) barrel?

Also is it the chaff in the grain that burns if you distill in the grain? I’m basically only removing the chaff. I was wondering if I could get away without bothering? I’m using an alembic still heated from underneath with an electric burner.
that depends on your efficiency and your cuts. In my limited experience, anywhere between 150 and 200# of grain. My first barrel fill was 200#barley malt, but I was new at it and could have done better. the 2nd barrel fill I did with 150# of feed grain corn. Im working on a 3rd barrel fill now, but its still too early to tell. Im only two ferments and one stripping run into the project.

IMO, you should not distill on grain unless you have a steam rig or a double boiler. Ferment on grain, rack and squeeze, then run cleared distillers beer. double distill. Others may have a differing opinion.
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Re: All Grain Bourbon

Post by hawkwing »

So far I've used two 20 kg bags of corn which makes up 70% of the mash bill. My first 4 batches that were about 23 -25 L each yielded approximately 30L of low wines at about 35%. I now have two 20 gallon fermenters going which is about 5.6 batches. I'm thinking I likely will need another bag of corn two if I'm super picky on cuts but I hope one bag. I forget where I got the idea that two bags might be close enough. I was hoping I'd have some extra to top up and to taste/rapid age as was suggested.

I didn't have any scorching issues and I ran the thick murky pressed liquid through. The only thing that was removed was the chaff. So I'm wondering if removing the chaff is even worthwhile as it takes quite a while using my juicer. I might be getting a wine press so I could try that but if it's not necessary I could save a bunch of time and work.
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