Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
subbrew
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:40 pm
Location: West of the Mississippi

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by subbrew »

Shine_Dad wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:53 am I will be running the same sugar wash going in the boiler.

So instead of just doubling the original recipe, I actually did the recipe for 12 gallons.

1-1.25 gallons for the thumper, and 10-10.5 gallons for the boiler.

I was told running the wash in the thumper will help improve proof and flavor.

And as far as jumping right in with using a thumper... well the wife originally thought I was just going to buy one of those cheap eBay kits... but after a few weeks of learning and reading online and hitting up marketgroup and craigslist, etc., I jumped in both feet full steam - no pun intended, and built a rig that I thought was capable of handling anything from basic UJSSM to rum or whatever else I end up doing in the future.

I'm still confused on whether or not I need to care about that top thermometer reading a full 210 though, or if I need to try to 'level off' the temperature of the steam at the top of the still to somewhere like 195-205?

Thanks everyone!
I didn't realize you were running a thumper. Some of what I said may be different as I have never run a thumper. For example my abv numbers for the jars come off may be lower than you will see. Perhaps someone else can chime in but if only doing stripping runs I am not sure there is an advantage to a thumper unless you fill it with grain and use the thumper to get the alcohol out of the grain.
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

Thank you @subbrew !!!

This cleared up a LOT of the questions / concerns I have.

So I guess the last question I have : What happens if I'm running this thing wide open with a ton of flame under the Keg?

Is it just going to get to a point where the condenser can't keep up with how hot and fast its pushing out steam and start spitting or start coming out as steam instead of a liquid?

Basically once I hear the boiler start boiling, I want to dial back how aggressive the flame is and just maintain a consistent boil?

I can't 'over heat' the boiler basically?

Also: As far as your second comment about using a thumper: Based on previous posts I read, I'm using my thumper to try to increase ABV and potentially flavor. I will be running around 1.25 gallons of my wash in the thumper of the 12 gallons I made in total. When I comes to a spirit run, I will either do the same thing, and place around 1.25 gallons of collected heads/tails in the thumper and the rest of the collection will all go into the boiler, or i'll once again add some fresh fermented sour mash for the thumper was my idea.
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Twisted Brick »

Maybe this will help.
.
Pot Run.jpeg
.
Like subbrew said, volatiles come off the still according to their own discreet boiling points (mixed with water). On a spirit run your job is to stretch out the takeoff in order to separate the fractions into those portions we want to keep and those we wish to discard. Sounds foreign I know, but this is accomplished by sight - manipulating the takeoff rate to ensure you are not taking off too fast, or too slow. A thermometer is not the correct tool for this since every spirit run is different: different grain bill, %ABV, different wash, different low wines, ambient temp, coolant temp, etc.

Because of the above differences, if you tried to accomplish the separation like in that chart using a thermometer you would end up with a mess. Just know that retailers target the unsuspecting (and enthusiastic) rookie and tack on a thermometer to boost their bottom line. Losing the thermometer will be your best move.

Lastly, by your confusion and the questions you ask, you have a lot of reading to do to catch up. For instance: A mash requires grain that while mashing (converting via enzymes) can be called a mash, but once its been converted is called a wash. After its been pitched with yeast its referred to as a ferment. We've all been where you are, super-excited to progress and make killer stuff, but knowledge will get you there faster.

This might help too: Boiling Myth
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by NZChris »

I suspect that, in your enthusiasm, you have overlooked doing a sacrificial alcohol run to clean the toxic flux and machine oils out of your build.
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

NZChris wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:03 pm I suspect that, in your enthusiasm, you have overlooked doing a sacrificial alcohol run to clean the toxic flux and machine oils out of your build.
Ruhroh...

So this first mash is entirely to throw away or use as weed killer huh?

Don't recommend drinking any of it? Even jar 15 of 30, a 'heart jar' ?

If that's the rule of thumb, that's what i'll do, i'll junk the entire wash. Yes - I overlooked this and wasn't aware of this.

*sad emoji* haha
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by NZChris »

It would be better to hold off running the UJSSM and do a quick sugar wash ferment for cleaning the still.
User avatar
subbrew
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:40 pm
Location: West of the Mississippi

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by subbrew »

Either do what NZ says or just run three gallons or so for the sac run and then run the rest as a short stripping run.
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Twisted Brick »

You can do a Google search and type in the following words:

homedistiller cleaning runs

Hint* This technique works for all topics you need information on!
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

Well just as a quick update to everything:

Sacrificial run will go down on Saturday.

Yesterday, as a final test to the still ( I had to build a top to my condenser so that it would hold another 5" of water to more fully submerge my coil ) we ran about a gallon or so of vinegar/water and it worked much smoother, as far as a consistent stream, with the rest of the coil being submerged in water.

We definitely have a heating issue, as the water rose from 65 to 105 degrees by the end of the run. But we have devised a simply plan of simply freezing giant sized ice cubs to dump into the cooler periodically during our Saturday run to try to keep temperatures down. We're planning to run starting earlier Saturday Morning, not afternoon. With a low of 58 and a high of 78, so that in itself should provide a smoother operation since it won't be hot out and is showing to be a cloudy day. It jumps back up to being 85-91 next week, so Saturday should be a good run.

We're going to run all 10 gallons in the still and 1.3 gallons in the thumper on the sacrificial run. Maybe after it runs half way thru we'll still be able to snag a small jar or at least taste it coming off the still as a way to celebrate the operation.

On the plus side, I picked up another 14/15 gallon plastic food grade fermentation barrel, picked up more corn and sugar and spring water, and when we finish our run Saturday, we're going to setup TWO 12 gallon mashes to run Next weekend. I'll be able to setup two sour mashes by putting some backset into both of them. So we're exciting that 10 days from now we'll actually be running for the first time, as far as collecting to keep some hearts and saving all the tails.

Thanks for everyones input, and we'll let everyone know how it goes.
User avatar
subbrew
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:40 pm
Location: West of the Mississippi

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by subbrew »

Just a little semantics. Refer to the picture Twisted brick posted a half dozen posts back. Specifically in a spirit run you seek to run the still to separate your product into four parts. Fores which are really just heads come off first and have a high % of acetone and some methanol. We burn it or put that on weeds. Next are heads. But as you can see from the picture the blue which represents head diminishes with time. The art is figuring out when the heads are low enough you want to start calling it hearts. Hearts of course are in the middle and that is the product you drink. At the end are tails. Once again the art is determining how much tails provide flavor you want in your drinking product so where to cut.

You collect all of that fores, heads, hearts, and tails. Fores are gone. Hearts are drinking goods, either white or put on wood to age. What you do with heads and tails varies. Together they are called Feints. Some people keep the tails and head separate and use them differently putting the tails into the next batch to be run to increase the yield of the next batch is common. I personally use about half of the heads to start fires, the high heads, and put the low heads and tails into a keg which I will eventually run through a reflux column to get a neutral enough product to use for gin and lemoncello.
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by cob »

Shine_Dad wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:30 am

Sacrificial run will go down on Saturday. when we finish our run Saturday, we're going to setup TWO 12 gallon mashes to run Next weekend. I'll be able to setup two sour mashes by putting some backset into both of them. So we're exciting that 10 days from now we'll actually be running for the first time, as far as collecting to keep some hearts and saving all the tails.

Thanks for everyones input, and we'll let everyone know how it goes.
Don't use anything from your sacrificial run!!
be water my friend
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

subbrew wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:20 pm Either do what NZ says or just run three gallons or so for the sac run and then run the rest as a short stripping run.
Last minute update before we start our adventure tomorrow morning.

We're going to take the advice here of Subbrew - We are going to run 3 of our 12 gallons as a sac run, tear it all down, rinse it, and then re-charge the still and thumper with the remaining 9 gallons so that we can actually appreciate our first fermentation and have a jar of white dog we can safely keep/drink. We will then have enough backset to put a gallon in each of our two 12 gallon fermentations we're going to put together saturday evening.

It will also give us an opportunity to jar it in individual collection jars to learn about heads/hearts/tails so we can start collecting for our spirit run.

I made it a few pages into a thread about what to do with heads... I MIGHT dip into a jar or two of heads with my tails towards the spirit run, but the first few jars of heads are just going to be used as weed/grass killer from what i'm surmised so far.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by NZChris »

After a sac run, I just hose it out and run it.
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

subbrew wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:27 am Just a little semantics. Refer to the picture Twisted brick posted a half dozen posts back. Specifically in a spirit run you seek to run the still to separate your product into four parts. Fores which are really just heads come off first and have a high % of acetone and some methanol. We burn it or put that on weeds. Next are heads. But as you can see from the picture the blue which represents head diminishes with time. The art is figuring out when the heads are low enough you want to start calling it hearts. Hearts of course are in the middle and that is the product you drink. At the end are tails. Once again the art is determining how much tails provide flavor you want in your drinking product so where to cut.

You collect all of that fores, heads, hearts, and tails. Fores are gone. Hearts are drinking goods, either white or put on wood to age. What you do with heads and tails varies. Together they are called Feints. Some people keep the tails and head separate and use them differently putting the tails into the next batch to be run to increase the yield of the next batch is common. I personally use about half of the heads to start fires, the high heads, and put the low heads and tails into a keg which I will eventually run through a reflux column to get a neutral enough product to use for gin and lemoncello.
I thought a spirit run is with all tails collected and everything it produces is basically liquor worth keeping and that the 'stripping run' is breaking it down from fores/heads/hearts/tails.

Am I wrong in that terminology? You refer to it above as a spirit run. But, again, I thought a spirit run was when you ran nothing but good tails as a run by itself and everything it produced was worth collecting and dumping into a proofing barrel basically?
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by zed255 »

Stripping is the rough separation of your ethanol from the bulk of the wash / mash / must ot what have you, where you keep everything (minus a small foreshot if you like) for your spirit run. Generally I do four strips to one spirit run. The spirit run is where you make your cuts.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

zed255 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:39 pm Stripping is the rough separation of your ethanol from the bulk of the wash / mash / must ot what have you, where you keep everything (minus a small foreshot if you like) for your spirit run. Generally I do four strips to one spirit run. The spirit run is where you make your cuts.
So.... let me get this straight... since i'm running my first run ever tomorrow morning:

When we run a sugar head for the first time ( running UJSSM ) - Aside from pitching fores, we're not bottling or separating Anything?

Because this was in another thread I read as well:

At the risk of overstatement, I think this thread is revolutionary, for me at least. It is like when I discovered that you did not have to make cuts on a stripping run when I first became interested in distilling.

So... i'm wasting my time doing anything other than pitching the fores and collecting everything in a single container.... heads/hearts/tails and then when i have enough 9-12 gallons, run all of that at one time to collect hearts?

I was under the impression, at least when it comes to UJSSM.... that once i run a single run, and maybe keep a jar or two of hearts in the middle....that i would then make another batch including some of the backset, and that each time we run that sour mash again, we could collect hearts to keep, while then collecting all the tails down to like 20% and collect those to then run a spirit run of nothing but decent tails?
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

If I don't keep the heads, only pull some heart jars during the stripping runs, and save all the tails down to 20% and only run tails... i kinda feel like you would be safe to expect to be able to keep most of that product made?
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by NZChris »

There are no heads, hearts, or tails from a stripping run. A small foreshot, then it's all Low Wines. My total UJSSM Low Wines collection is usually around 27%.
Last edited by NZChris on Fri May 27, 2022 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by zed255 »

Like NZChris reinforced, when stripping the result is low wines where no cuts are made, collect it all. When you have enough low wines to charge your boiler you perform the spirit run, where cuts are made. Feints from your spirit run can be included with your next charge of wash or low wines as you see fit.

You can run slow on the first pass and grab the narrow bit of hearts if you want, but most don't take anything from the strip. The yield is low and it will still be rough compared to a proper spirit run from low wines.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by NZChris »

NZChris wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:12 pm There are no heads, hearts, or tails from a stripping run. A small foreshot, then it's all Low Wines. My total UJSSM Low Wines collection is usually around 27%.
I just remembered that you are running a thumper, so ignore this advice because it's advice for a pot still.

Don't try to cut 'on the fly'. Run into jars, then choose your heart cut from the jars.
User avatar
subbrew
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:40 pm
Location: West of the Mississippi

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by subbrew »

Shine_Dad wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:34 pm

I thought a spirit run is with all tails collected and everything it produces is basically liquor worth keeping and that the 'stripping run' is breaking it down from fores/heads/hearts/tails.

Am I wrong in that terminology? You refer to it above as a spirit run. But, again, I thought a spirit run was when you ran nothing but good tails as a run by itself and everything it produced was worth collecting and dumping into a proofing barrel basically?
Given the posts after your questions, I assume you have the terms all figured out. But tell us, how did the runs go? I assume you learned a bit on the sac run and hopefully had some fun on the next run. Did you run the "real" run as a spirit run, since you have the thumper? Did you skip the thumper and just do a pot still stripping run? And do you have the next batches fermenting?
Shine_Dad
Novice
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:47 am

Re: Is my Mash Fermenting? UJSSM

Post by Shine_Dad »

It was Fantastic!

I'm going to have a lot more to say tomorrow when I have more time to post... we were up til past midnight Saturday night.... it was a full days work to charge everything, run the sac run, rinse everything out, get everything prepped and everything charged for the 7 gallon still / 1.3 gallon thumper run... we collected: 14 : 400-440ml jars... with the thumper, i think it Greatly improved what we expected to taste.

it came out at 155 from the get go. We kept jars 8/9 and ran it as a 'spirit' run and as a 'stripping' run. i'm combining the different opinions into a method of my own that i think will work. Jars 8/9 were straight corn whiskey fire. the 'hearts' of the run, in my opinion. Those two jars landed in the 112-115 and 108-110 range.

BOTH 14/15 gallon food buckets are fermenting. we took the opportunity to start the second one already with the gallon of backset to have both of them run next time as 'UJSSM' - barrel one is already fermenting/bubbling having NOT added yeast, as the recipe calls to continue it without having to add more yeast, and the second one is fermenting/bubbling having the yeast pitched into it the first time.

we learned a ton... and the first time i took a sip ( we passed it around, the 5 of us ) and tasted that 110 proof corn sugar whiskey it took me back to 15 years ago when we used to get it from the local guy who made moonshine here near the mountains where i live in east Tennessee.

Will chime in with more, or maybe even make a post about my entire experience, when i have more time over the next couple of days.

This Saturday is clear again as far as plans, so we're going to run both batches back to back of 10.5 gallons in the still and the 1.3 gallons in the thumper.
Post Reply