Poor starch conversion

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Hindsight
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:08 pm
Location: Arkansas

Poor starch conversion

Post by Hindsight »

First and foremost, thank you to all who have made this community possible.

I have made this mash previously but this time I added a couple of variables to see if the profile changes. What I am trying to experiment with is a corn and rice whiskey, and with the previous batch, it ran smoothly.

My previous batch consisted of corn, long grain white rice (coarse ground) 6 row and water, supplemented with alpha a beta amylase… no problems.

So this batch:
40# cracked corn
9# long grain White Rice (I did not grind it this time)
10# 6 row
25 gallon water
1 gallon backset from previous batch (new variable for this batch)
Ground oyster shells (new variable for this batch)

Procedure:
Placed 20 gallon water with 1 gallon backset into BOP and adjusted pH to 4.5. Heated to 195 and added corn and rice. I also added a couple hand fulls of ground oyster shells to keep from crashing the pH, along with high temp amylase. I have rigged up a drill to keep the mixture continuously stirring while gelatinizing the grains. I kept the temp between185-190 for 90 minutes, then cooled down to 150 and added the 6 row and mixed. Then transferred to brute can and added remaining liquid to reach 26 gallons total. Added 2 tablespoons each of supplemental alpha and beta amylase, then insulated the brute can. I do ferment on the grain, so everything went into the brute can. I let this sit overnight and still positive iodine test, temp this morning was 120 and pH was 4.9 which converts to 5.4 with temp correction. I has been sitting in the insulated brute can for about 12+ hours.

The oyster shells, backset, and unmilled rice were the only differences for this mash compared to previous runs, but I am puzzled why the poor conversion. I have not tried to get a gravity reading because there is so many suspended solids, not sure it would be accurate. I am gonna let it sit (insulated ) a while longer to see if anything happens, but any advice or input would be appreciated.
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by still_stirrin »

How fine did you mill the cracked corn? Why didn’t you mill the rice this time? Milling both to a fine meal, not a powder, but at least the hulls broken down would help with conversion, or at least improve exposure to the enzymes so they can convert the starches.

You didn’t say what your measured OG was either. Or, are you judging success solely based upon the iodine test?

Finally, not all corn is the same. If this batch of corn is different than the last, or it is older, then protein reduction in the endosperm will progress at a different rate. Many variables can affect how a mash progresses. You’ve obviously experienced a few.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Hindsight
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:08 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Hindsight »

Thank you for your reply Still_stirrin
I did not mill the corn anymore, from what is done at the feed store, it was your run of the mill cracked corn. In my previous runs, I did not alter the corn from what came in the bag either. This is the same product/same brand/same store that I had used in previous run

I did not mill the rice this time to see if separation would be easier when racking off the wort for distillation. I do ferment on the grain and separating the grain and liquid is a chore. In all reality it did not seem to make much difference in the solids, I think the rice grains were broken up by the drill continuously stirring with a paddle mixer for 90 minutes during gelatinization.

I did not measure my OG with this batch because of the amount of suspended solids, I did not think it would be accurate. I usually measure the OG after the conversion is complete and iodine test is negative. My iodine test is still positive and my mash is visibly thick/pasty. I have not pitched my yeast, I am still waiting on conversion to take place. My previous run had OG of 1.072.

I don’t understand why the enzymes did not work, my liquid was (I thought) sufficient, my pH was good, my temps were correct, I do think that adequate heat/time was given for the corn and rice to gelatinize (granted milling would have exposed more, but did not have this problem previously). I do wonder if more liquid is needed, more time is needed? I obviously messed up somewhere, just can’t figure it out.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by StillerBoy »

Hindsight wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:21 pm I do wonder if more liquid is needed, more time is needed? I obviously messed up somewhere, just can’t figure it out.
That's what usually happen went one doesn't have a method, process and notes.. the note making is as important and the mashing is assistance to fingering out what went wrong.. assuming never turns out well..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
Hindsight
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:08 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Hindsight »

Stillerboy you are correct, innovation is not achieved without failure. I have my notes and working out the best procedure for this process. I have not given up on this mash. I may not be able to tell you the best way to do, but I can tell you 99 ways of how NOT to make it 😂🤪
RockinRockies
Swill Maker
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:23 pm

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by RockinRockies »

Man I struggled with all grain for 3 years, and finally learned enough to keep the water boiling the entire time while adding to grains after correcting pH. I also went to 55 gallon drums due to efficiency and thermal mass. They literally require nothing to maintain the heat. 2 boils (or temp l strike temp) to fill it up for grain batches.
I'm pulling 10% with my sweetfeed enzyme batches at 2#/gallon.

Don't take shortcuts. I took them for 3 years and always had shit conversions, until my buddy ripped my ass and told me to stop being lazy. No more firing from the hip. Adhere to protocols and you will succeed.

The real crap part is wringing the grain. Even with our press we're losing 10% minimum
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3771
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Twisted Brick »

Might be your pH. You don't say what the alkalinity of your water is, but those whose water is neutral (like mine) there is nothing you have to do to adjust pH since pH drops naturally during a corn mash. I use SebStar HTL, whose recommended pH range is 5.6 - 6.5. You adjusted your water to 4.5 prior to mash-in, and then the addition of your corn likely dropped your pH even further.

FWIW, I do 12.5gal (keg) bourbon mashes, and have learned not to add more than a quart of backset, which I add just prior to doughing-in my small grains and gluco. (The pH of backset from successive runs becomes gradually more acidic which started affecting my ferments).

I am a big proponent of milling all my grains (even 2-row) to a coarse meal for the highest and quickest conversion rate, like the commercial guys do. This is critical with cracked corn since the grain's density resists gelatinization.
x
Enzyme pH Chart.gif
Enzyme pH Chart.gif (6.37 KiB) Viewed 1007 times
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
Hindsight
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:08 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Hindsight »

RockinRockies: The separation of the grains is a big pain, but necessary evil. 55 gallons drums would be great but then having time to run them through a small still is hard right now. Trying to talk the misses into letting me upgrade but she is not on board…. Yet lol

Twisted Brick: I think you have found the problem, I will try some calcium hydroxide to see if raising the pH up will help out with the conversion. I don’t have a mill for the grains other than a food processor, but that may be the next item for the future.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by shadylane »

Hindsight wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:49 pm

Twisted Brick: I think you have found the problem, I will try some calcium hydroxide to see if raising the pH up will help out with the conversion.
Give this a try Hindsight.
The pH of cooked grain and water is close enough for high temp alpha.
Ya probably don't need to make any adjustments.
Cool to just under 150 and add the malt.
Hold the temp and wait until the iodine test shows no starch.
Then add backset for the gluco, it needs a lower pH.
And as Twisted pointed out, don't use too much backset.
Snickers902
Novice
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:46 pm

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Snickers902 »

Hindsight,
Everyone's feedback sounds logical. Though I would share with you a similar, if not exact experience I've had with Amylase (Alpha & Gluco). Earlier this year I had a mash that was not converting no matter how much enzyme I threw at it. Called the supplier, no explanations. So had to get stepping online to research. Now I don't usually put much credence in Utube videos, but ran across one that addressed using enzymes directly. The video addressed one thing I never considered, shelf life and storage (I know, that's two things). Anyway, it does have a shelf life same as your yeast does, just shorter. Check the batch date on your enzyme. If it's over 6 months, it may be the culprit here. Mine was 6 months old before I got it. Decided to try the liquids, SEBstar HTL & SEBamyl GL. Re-heated my mash, slowly and stirring to keep from sticking to bottom. Got to 180 and added recommended dosage HTL ( .38 ml/Gal ), watched it thin right before my eyes. Have it 1 hr. at 180 and dropped temp. to 148 for GL at same dosage and cut the heat. Let sit overnight and was thin as water in the am. Iodine - neg. And this part is what nocked me on my ass with amazement, SG was 1.100. Pitched Red Star DADY, finished at .992. Ran it to get 2 Gal. at 170 out of 5 gal mash. second run on it gave me 1 3/4 gal at 185.

10# cracked corn
2 1/2# rye
5 gal water

On oak as we speak.
Snickers902
Novice
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:46 pm

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Snickers902 »

Hindsight,
Everyone's feedback sounds logical. Though I would share with you a similar, if not exact experience I've had with Amylase (Alpha & Gluco). Earlier this year I had a mash that was not converting no matter how much enzyme I threw at it. Called the supplier, no explanations. So had to get stepping online to research. Now I don't usually put much credence in Utube videos, but ran across one that addressed using enzymes directly. The video addressed one thing I never considered, shelf life and storage (I know, that's two things). Anyway, it does have a shelf life same as your yeast does, just shorter. Check the batch date on your enzyme. If it's over 6 months, it may be the culprit here. Mine was 6 months old before I got it. Decided to try the liquids, SEBstar HTL & SEBamyl GL. Re-heated my mash, slowly and stirring to keep from sticking to bottom. Got to 180 and added recommended dosage HTL ( .38 ml/Gal ), watched it thin right before my eyes. Have it 1 hr. at 180 and dropped temp. to 148 for GL at same dosage and cut the heat. Let sit overnight and was thin as water in the am. Iodine - neg. And this part is what nocked me on my ass with amazement, SG was 1.100. Pitched Red Star DADY, finished at .992. Ran it to get 2 Gal. at 170 out of 5 gal mash. second run on it gave me 1 3/4 gal at 185.

10# cracked corn
2 1/2# rye
5 gal water

On oak as we speak.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by StillerBoy »

Snickers902 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:59 pm Decided to try the liquids, SEBstar HTL & SEBamyl GL. Re-heated my mash, slowly and stirring to keep from sticking to bottom. Got to 180 and added recommended dosage HTL ( .38 ml/Gal ), watched it thin right before my eyes. Have it 1 hr. at 180 and dropped temp. to 148 for GL at same dosage and cut the heat. Let sit overnight and was thin as water in the am. Iodine - neg.
I has been stated by the experience masher's many times over the past 6 plus yrs, than the high temp liquid enzymes out preform most others, and the products from Specialty Enzymes are the very best, Ferm Solutions are next but require more.. both keep well as I got some that are over 4 yrs old and still do the task..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
howie
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:34 am

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by howie »

i have wondering about my high temp amylase this week when i noticed it was 2 months out of date.
it's still working, but at what point does it stop working.
does it suddenly stop working altogether or gradually slow down?
anyway, i decided that i will occasionally test it, maybe just boil some oats in a pan until it's a thick porridge and add a couple of drops of enzyme to check it's effectiveness.
the least amount of enzyme i can buy is 1L, which at 0.2ml/kg of grain, will do 5000kgs worth :think:
i will never get through a litre in the expiry time.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by StillerBoy »

howie wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:07 pm it's still working, but at what point does it stop working.
As I've stated, my is over 4 yrs old, and still good as of the last usage about 4 months back on rice..

But I keep at the bottom shelf at the back in the fridge.. my bottles were 500ml and still have about 150ml or so, and take it out about a hr before using it.. and it works good..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
User avatar
Skipper1953
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:08 am
Location: USA

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Skipper1953 »

I have a couple of bottles of SebStar enzymes that I bought about 6 years ago. I keep them in the veggie drawer of my old refrigerator. I take them out, measure out what I need and put them right back in the fridge so they don't warm up. Used them this past February and they worked great.
Snickers902
Novice
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:46 pm

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Snickers902 »

SEBstar HTL ® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase Alcohol & Starch Division Description: SEBstar HTL is a heat-stable, liquid alpha-amylase enzyme. It is produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Bacillus licheniformis. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher Certified and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBstar HTL is an endo-amylase that randomly hydrolyzes alpha1,4-glycosidic bonds in gelatinized starch. The prolonged action of SEBstar HTL rapidly reduces the viscosity of gelatinized starch and produces large amounts of lower molecular weight dextrins. Application: SEBstar HTL is used in the starch industry to continuously liquefy and dextrinize gelatinized, wet-milled corn and wheat starch for the production of low-dextrose (DE 7 – 15) starch syrups. Because of its heat stability, broad pH tolerance and low calcium requirement, SEBstar HTL can be used to liquefy starch slurries at temperatures as high as 90oC without the addition of calcium. In the alcohol industry it is used for high-temperature liquefaction of starch containing grain mashes (corn, wheat, barley, sorghum, rice etc.) for production neutral spirits. In the brewing industry, SEBstar HTL is used to rapidly liquefy and reduce the viscosity of grain adjuncts. Benefits:  Excellent thermal stability for liquefaction of steam jet-cooked starch.  Produces low-viscosity, liquid dextrose syrups in 90 minutes at 80 – 90oC.  Whole corn or grain liquefaction at pH 5.8 and 80 - 85oC  Increases wort yield and grain adjunct cooking capacity  Produced by fermentation of non-GMO, organism. All natural, non-synthetic ingredients Enzyme Properties: SEBstar HTL is a brown liquid. The enzyme has a slight odor typical of fermented products. It is completely soluble in water. When used to liquefy cereal grain starch, the optimum pH pH 5.6 – 6.5. SEBstar HTL has a temperature range of 50 – 90oC. For liquefaction hold times longer than 30 minutes, the optimum temperature is 80 – 85oC. Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95oC and pH 6.5. SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95oC. The activity of SEBstar HTL is stabilized by the presence of Ca++ ions and is inhibited by high concentrations of heavy metals. Dosage: The optimum dosage of SEBstar HTL depends on:  nature and dry solids (DS)% of the substrate to be liquefied  final starch-syrup dextrose equivalent (DE, %) required  liquefaction temperature and pH  liquefaction time (typically 30 – 120 minutes)  recommended dose: 200 – 800g/metric ton starch DS or whole grain. 13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBstar HTL® 1 Rev. 7/10

SEBstar HTL ® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase Alcohol & Starch Division Quality Specifications: SEBstar HTL is manufactured under a quality management system consistent with International Quality System Standard (ISO 9001:2000). Purity specifications comply with FAO/WHO JECFA, FCC and IFOAM recommended standards for food-grade enzymes. Packaging: SEBstar HTL is available in 25kg Jerry Cans, 225 kg Drums and 1,100 kg tote-bins. Storage: SEBstar HTL should be stored in a cool, dry place. Storage in unopened containers, at or below 10oC, helps to maintain maximum activity if stored over long periods. Under these conditions, activity loss after one year should not be more than 5 – 10%. Extended storage under adverse conditions, including high temperatures (>10oC) may require the use of higher than recommended dosages. Safety and Handling: Liquid enzyme preparations are dust-free. However, inappropriate handling may cause the formation of aerosols or dust. Avoid formation of aerosols and dust from dried out or spilled enzyme. Avoid splashing and high-pressure washing. Unnecessary contact with the product and inhalation of aerosols or dust should be avoided. In case of spillage or contact with eye or skin, rinse affected area promptly with plenty of water. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., provides both Material Safety Data Sheets and advice to customers regarding the safe handling of enzymes. The information contained in this product sheet is, to the best of our knowledge, true and accurate. Recommendations or suggestions made herein are without guarantee since the conditions of use and of storage are beyond our control. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., does not guarantee the product can be used as described herein without prior positive testing. SEBstar HTL ® is a registered trademark of Specialty Enzymes & Biotechnologies Company. 13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBstar HTL® 2 Rev. 7/10
Snickers902
Novice
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:46 pm

Re: Poor starch conversion

Post by Snickers902 »

SEBstar HTL ® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase Alcohol & Starch Division Description: SEBstar HTL is a heat-stable, liquid alpha-amylase enzyme. It is produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Bacillus licheniformis. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher Certified and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBstar HTL is an endo-amylase that randomly hydrolyzes alpha1,4-glycosidic bonds in gelatinized starch. The prolonged action of SEBstar HTL rapidly reduces the viscosity of gelatinized starch and produces large amounts of lower molecular weight dextrins. Application: SEBstar HTL is used in the starch industry to continuously liquefy and dextrinize gelatinized, wet-milled corn and wheat starch for the production of low-dextrose (DE 7 – 15) starch syrups. Because of its heat stability, broad pH tolerance and low calcium requirement, SEBstar HTL can be used to liquefy starch slurries at temperatures as high as 90oC without the addition of calcium. In the alcohol industry it is used for high-temperature liquefaction of starch containing grain mashes (corn, wheat, barley, sorghum, rice etc.) for production neutral spirits. In the brewing industry, SEBstar HTL is used to rapidly liquefy and reduce the viscosity of grain adjuncts. Benefits:  Excellent thermal stability for liquefaction of steam jet-cooked starch.  Produces low-viscosity, liquid dextrose syrups in 90 minutes at 80 – 90oC.  Whole corn or grain liquefaction at pH 5.8 and 80 - 85oC  Increases wort yield and grain adjunct cooking capacity  Produced by fermentation of non-GMO, organism. All natural, non-synthetic ingredients Enzyme Properties: SEBstar HTL is a brown liquid. The enzyme has a slight odor typical of fermented products. It is completely soluble in water. When used to liquefy cereal grain starch, the optimum pH pH 5.6 – 6.5. SEBstar HTL has a temperature range of 50 – 90oC. For liquefaction hold times longer than 30 minutes, the optimum temperature is 80 – 85oC. Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95oC and pH 6.5. SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95oC. The activity of SEBstar HTL is stabilized by the presence of Ca++ ions and is inhibited by high concentrations of heavy metals. Dosage: The optimum dosage of SEBstar HTL depends on:  nature and dry solids (DS)% of the substrate to be liquefied  final starch-syrup dextrose equivalent (DE, %) required  liquefaction temperature and pH  liquefaction time (typically 30 – 120 minutes)  recommended dose: 200 – 800g/metric ton starch DS or whole grain. 13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBstar HTL® 1 Rev. 7/10

SEBstar HTL ® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase Alcohol & Starch Division Quality Specifications: SEBstar HTL is manufactured under a quality management system consistent with International Quality System Standard (ISO 9001:2000). Purity specifications comply with FAO/WHO JECFA, FCC and IFOAM recommended standards for food-grade enzymes. Packaging: SEBstar HTL is available in 25kg Jerry Cans, 225 kg Drums and 1,100 kg tote-bins. Storage: SEBstar HTL should be stored in a cool, dry place. Storage in unopened containers, at or below 10oC, helps to maintain maximum activity if stored over long periods. Under these conditions, activity loss after one year should not be more than 5 – 10%. Extended storage under adverse conditions, including high temperatures (>10oC) may require the use of higher than recommended dosages. Safety and Handling: Liquid enzyme preparations are dust-free. However, inappropriate handling may cause the formation of aerosols or dust. Avoid formation of aerosols and dust from dried out or spilled enzyme. Avoid splashing and high-pressure washing. Unnecessary contact with the product and inhalation of aerosols or dust should be avoided. In case of spillage or contact with eye or skin, rinse affected area promptly with plenty of water. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., provides both Material Safety Data Sheets and advice to customers regarding the safe handling of enzymes. The information contained in this product sheet is, to the best of our knowledge, true and accurate. Recommendations or suggestions made herein are without guarantee since the conditions of use and of storage are beyond our control. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., does not guarantee the product can be used as described herein without prior positive testing. SEBstar HTL ® is a registered trademark of Specialty Enzymes & Biotechnologies Company. 13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBstar HTL® 2 Rev. 7/10
Post Reply