output versus purity

[dougyethanol]

hi there, i made a reflux still up last weekend and did my first run friday.
thanks to homedestiller.org for all the helpful info along the way.
i have a question though in regards to output versus purity.
out of a 25 litre wash at 14%, how much distalite to what purity should i expect?
what i got was first jar 1400ml-92%, 2nd 1400ml-89%, 3rd 1000ml 71%, 4th 500ml-65%.
this was acheived in 6 hours with apprx. 1200watts up it.

[Braz]

If my arithmetic is right, 25L @ 14% should be 3.5L of alcohol potential. (at a theoretical 100%ABV) You got 4.3L at something less that 100% (looks like 3.56L when converted to a theoretical 100%). Looks like you got it all.

But, something is wrong here. Your still is running like a pot still, not like a reflux still.

[Kifi]

Agree - you got it all.

A few tips. 1 - lower the heat to around 750W using a router speed control rated to handle your hot plate or boiler element. 1 - equilibriate the column (100% reflux) for 2 hours before taking product.

I assume your column is insulated and packed? How long is it and what's the diameter?

[Bushman]

Your numbers seem about right, here is a calculator for future reference.
http://homedistiller.org/calcs/reflux_calc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[dougyethanol]

the point that braz made about something being wrong - running a like pot still.
being my first i was playing around alot taking alot data, heat - coolant changes, alc. measuremets.
when i got to tails i came to conclusion that it i'll rip it out quick as i was going to throw it into my next wash.
so i upped the heat and this is i suppose the main reason for the drop in purity.
i also found that upping the heat and lowering coolant didnt really make a big difference to speed of collection.
the lowest i got was 58% at apprx. 1800w with low coolant flow during tails and when i dropped
it down to appx. 1200w again with more coolant it came back up to 75%.
so i'm playing around a little to learn my still, see where to make improvements.
so can someone please tell me what the norm is for purity whilst collecting tails(eg last 500ml).

[Kifi]

If you get yourself a parrot so you can continuously monitor output ABV as you're collecting, you'll slowly watch your ABV drop right to zero. When you get to zero, all your tails are gone. Most people only collect down to 20%, because by this time only 2% of your alc is left in the pot.

[dougyethanol]

hi kifi, in regards to earlier post my column is copper 1 metre by 40mm, packed with stainless wool to 800mm.
just to clarify my querie, is it normal to have purity to drop off (lets say 90%)and at what stage of collection?
thanks.

[Kifi]

There are so many factors at play, it's very hard to call that one accurately without knowing alot of detail about your still, wash, etc, etc.

If you're collecting slowly (2-4 drops per second) and you've let the column equilibriate for 2 hours after heat up and before collection, it will normally sit over 90% abv for most of the run before it starts to drop. when you hit 80%, go to 100% reflux again (equilibriate - stop collecting and reflux all your distillate) for 40 mins, then begin drawing off the distillate again, and you'll be back at 90% for short while. Do this 3 or 4 times and that's the best way to compress tails and maximize your output.

Good luck!

[Austin Nichols]

If you're collecting slowly (2-4 drops per second) and you've let the column equilibriate for 2 hours after heat up and before collection

Good luck!

WTF? 2 HOURS??????

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 65&start=0

[dougyethanol]

thanks for responses. i saw a post by eyefish where he claimed to get 96-97% purity for
most of his run and he shut it down when tails hit 92%, so i thought my results were bad.
ive been brewing beer for many years and now am tackling spirits. the more i look into
it the deeper it goes. my first wash was white sugar with turbo classic yeast. i have
another packet of t.c.yeast, should i use white sugar or dextrose in next wash? i found
the alcohol from first stilling tasting a little sweet. would this help? would a second run
through still lessen the sweet taste?

[Austin Nichols]

Use whatever you've got handy, sugar or dextrose wont really matter, turbo's are ok to learn with but there's better alternatives in the tried n true section.

Double distilling definately helps, but if your running your reflux properly and maintaining a consistent temp of 78c to 79c you should end up with something decent after doing your cuts.

There's no substitute for experience tho, and you will get that, keep at it

[dougyethanol]

thanks austin, i find that the lesser the watts, the more control i had of temp.
(ive only done one run), would this be a correct assumption.
so the longer the run(time wise) the better the outcome.
is the 6 hour run i did on par or a little short?

[Austin Nichols]

Could you please post a pic or explanation of your rig?

It would help a lot if we knew exactly what your using, then you can be advised with an amount of certainty to your questions.

Sometimes more heat is the answer, this creates more reflux and cools the column (in laymans terms) so by running less heat you could be stuffing things up, but then we dont know what your still is to verify this.

Cheers.

[rad14701]

dougyethanol, you ended up with substantially more spirits from that was than should be expected... Well over a half liter more... At an average of 88% (guesstimated) you should only expect ~3.8 liters total spirits... The higher the average %ABV, the lower the expected collected amount...

We really need to know what reflux column design you are running in order to be of help...

[Kifi]

If you're collecting slowly (2-4 drops per second) and you've let the column equilibriate for 2 hours after heat up and before collection

Good luck!

WTF? 2 HOURS??????

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 65&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Austin - go and see what Nixon, McCaw and Smiley say about 2 hour equilibriations and why. You'll jump on that bandwagon too!

[rad14701]

I'll never run at equilibrium for 2 hours nor will I ever collect at 1 drip per second... I can dilute and re-distill quicker, if needed...

[Austin Nichols]

Austin - go and see what Nixon, McCaw and Smiley say about 2 hour equilibriations and why. You'll jump on that bandwagon too!

Nup! aint ever gunna happen dude, my run is almost half done by then, using my flute

[dougyethanol]

hi there, as asked, heres a couple of photos of my rig i set up.

SDC13169.JPG (8.93 KiB) Viewed 3605 times

SDC13164.JPG (13.77 KiB) Viewed 3605 times

the stainless wool sausages get stuffed inside column(800mm), when i pulled them out after first
run the bottom one had like crusty bits on it, and by the third the crusty bits were gone.
the cooling coil is 7metres of 8mm pvc covering 700mm of 1000mmx40mm copper pipe.
coolant speed adjusted through main tap aswell as diverter tap near condensor.

[Austin Nichols]

I think your results were pretty good given your column length and the fact it's a CM still (cooling management), you could really improve that rig easily by removing the cooling line from around the column, putting a condenser on top and having a gate or ball valve on the horizontle (sp) part of the liebig

[dougyethanol]

I think your results were pretty good given your column length and the fact it's a CM still (cooling management), you could really improve that rig easily by removing the cooling line from around the column, putting a condenser on top and having a gate or ball valve on the horizontle (sp) part of the liebig

the next modification i was thinking about was soldering a copper pipe on top of cap and running some cold water
through it so as to end up with a cold cap sending vapour that hit it back down column.
i think what your saying here is to put a cooling coil inside top of column with a hole at very top to atmosphere,
and a ball valve to control the flow of distallite collection? is this what you meant.

[Austin Nichols]

Yeah take a look at posts about VM stills in the column distillation forum, your already half way there to VM anyway.

Cheers.

[dougyethanol]

if we could go back to earlier post were i mentioned crusty bits on packing in column.
is this normal. is this vapour residue or maybe a foamup in boiler?

[Austin Nichols]

if we could go back to earlier post were i mentioned crusty bits on packing in column. maybe a foamup in boiler?

Yeah I'd say you almost had a puke

[Kifi]

if we could go back to earlier post were i mentioned crusty bits on packing in column.
is this normal. is this vapour residue or maybe a foamup in boiler?

Yes, and you can fix this by putting and handful of marbles or broken safety glass, etc, in your boiler to even out the boil, and adding FOOD GRADE silicone drops (also known as defoamer) to the wash. You can get this at AustinHomebrew.com, Brewhaus, etc.

And I agree with Austin about doing a VM conversion on your column. VMs are easy to operate (you don't have to play around too much with flow rate), and your reflux ratio doesn't drop over the length of your run like with an LM.

But I actually don't mind CMs that much unlike most here on HD; I have 3, they work for me, but in your case I'd recommend modifying your reflux coil a bit. Start a few inches below your take off point, and do a very tight wind (no spaces) so your coil is 8" long, and wind a second coil tightly overtop of it. Right now your coil is too long, and it's reducing the number of virtual plates in your column. Make the mod, run low and slow and equalize/equilibriate first, and you'll see a big difference.

[dougyethanol]

this is what the local home brew shop sold me, this essencia foam stop.

fstop.jpg (7.54 KiB) Viewed 3423 times

makep - silicon, propylene glycol.
no mention anywhere on bottle as to dosage rate, nor on their website.
however it did have a dosage rate for sterilizing - 1 teaspoon per litre..
i took a guess and added 2 capfulls (to wash mentioned above.)
has anyone used this product or know the dosage rate?

[olddog]

makep - silicon, propylene glycol.

I don't think I would want to be drinking anything with silicon and antifreeze (propylene glycol)


OD

[dougyethanol]

makep - silicon, propylene glycol.

I don't think I would want to be drinking anything with silicon and antifreeze (propylene glycol)


OD

really, was i sold a dud, should i chuck it in the bin, what should i use?

[olddog]

Firstly, I have never yet had a still puke on me, this is usually caused by overfilling the boiler, or distilling a wash that has not fully fermented and still has residual sugar left and has not fermented dry.
I ferment 30lt washes to distill in a 50 litree keg, which leaves plenty of headroom. I have heard of guys putting a few drops of cooking oil in the boiler to prevent foaming, but I have never had the need.


OD

[airhill]

Propylene glycol is what they put in essences and its only use as antifreeze is in hot water systems with heat exchangers (ie if they leak its non toxic). However I certainly wouldn't waste money on anti foaming agents from brewshops.

I am at a loss why it would take 6 hours to run 25l of 14% wash or why the output would vary so much in %ABV when running hearts, thats more like a potstill than a column. You are controlling the water flow? as it sounds like the column was unstable.

[dougyethanol]

I am at a loss why it would take 6 hours to run 25l of 14% wash or why the output would vary so much in %ABV when running hearts, thats more like a potstill than a column. You are controlling the water flow? as it sounds like the column was unstable.

hi there airhill, i was hoping you could expand on the time frame of my wash, how long should it take?
the swing in hearts was 92% down to 89%-average 90.5% over 2.8litres. should it be a constant abv%?
yes i do control water to condensor aswell as column. i did play with it a bit, being my first run.
start of collection
9.00am 78.8c, 10.00am 79.8c-sample taken 94%, 1 litre collected.
11.00am 80.0c, 12.00pm 81.6c-sample taken 91%, 2.3 litres collected
12.30pm 82.5c sample taken 89%.
this is where i upped heat - lowered cooling to rip out tails.
1.00pm sample taken 75% at 88.9c, 1.15pm sample taken 64% at 91.8c
this is where i backed of heat upped coolant again.
1.30pm 71% at 90.8c.
from here lots of playing around not really any info of relevance.
shut down when temp hovered aroun 92-93c total collected 4.3litres.
so just to recap, could someone clarify airhills statement(including himself ofcourse).