VM spirit run, neutral

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casper the Irish
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VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

I have been fermenting in 25litre tubs, pot stripping runs at full heat on the kitchen stove collecting down to 10% ....averaging 37% low wines

First neutral spirit run, today it is snowing in Belfast Ireland
I have collected 40 litre low wines treated with washing soda and potassium permanganate to purify.

Boiling in 50'
The cooling water just needs a tad trickle to knock back the vapour on full boil. Maybe it's the snow. I've insulated the column but the coil is sheathed in bare copper gleaming in the morning sunshine. This is a beautiful day.
First discovery: get a needle valve on the water flow. 10mm nylon pipe and plastic needle valve cheap and effective.

Full reflux 1hr. Crack open the gate valve and run off methy fore shots.
After 300ml it sweetens up. Hovering around 89%abv
First litre into feints before I start collecting. That less dry slightly oily feel appears and woody smell is gone.

Big dilemma. I read here that hearts should be collected with the heat turned way down. That needs the gate valve near full open to collect at a trickle. Here's my dilemma, please help. With valve cracked open, liquid collects and gags the vapour flow. When half open I get a trickle but there's 2 or 3 oz collecting behind the valve. Surely that becomes LM and we no longer have a VM reflux column?

So I try running heat down, valve fully open. Flow settles to trickle, but uneven from drizzle to 3 drips/sec. Probably the wind effecting the gas. Now instead of LM or VM I seem to be running my still by heat management.

So what should I do to collect best hearts by VM? Low heat with valve open (is like a pot still plus condenser to strip out water). OR High heat (is like a bokakob LM)

My column-
image.jpg
This head works both on my stove pot (condenser off for stripping runs)
And as here on top of the reflux column (with condenser for spirit run)

2" copper, 48" high reflux column on 45 litre SS keg heated outdoors by gas ring
Packed with SS scrubbers in copper mesh netting AND 3 internal reducing rings to help stream the reflux
2" column topped with rt angle bend into two pathways both 3/4" splits: up to condenser, and down to Liebig
Last edited by casper the Irish on Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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humbledore
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by humbledore »

Not sure if I understand all of this but there shouldn't be any liquid collecting behind a VM valve. You reflux condenser should be over the column...that's the idea, sending the distillate back down the column. Seems to me in this setup liquid coming down off the RC is pooling behind your valve instead of going down the column. The only liquid you should be seeing on the output side is once vapor passes the valve and into the product condenser.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by thatguy1313 »

CCVM ala DAD300. No valve, no worries.

Got any better pics of that rig? I'm confused too.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

The condenser should drip into that 2" horizontal. The vapour off take is horizontal thru a 2" to 3/4" reducer so the condensate cannot flow out but runs back down the column because the reducer is an inch up from the floor.

Wot de heck is ccvm dad300? Are u saying take the valve away?
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

Is this visible? My first uploads!
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

I took this from the drawings page posted here by I think it was hookline

Maybe I put the valve too late, should've been immediate on the horizontal takeoff and not after the bend. Just tried to keep it too tidy!

2" copper with bend into horizontal lyne arm. Two tees. First a vertical tee up into the condenser via 3/4" throat.
Next the horizontal takeoff thru a 3/4" reducer dropping down to collection.
Reflux vapours get thru packing and column rings travel up round the bend and separate better on the horizontal arm, water rising and ethanol falling (being more dense than steam)

Ethanol falls out to the Liebig while water mix gets knocked back as liquid and runs back round the bend.

At least that was his theory
Last edited by casper the Irish on Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by humbledore »

I see what you are saying on the horizontal 2" reducer to 3/4". But somehow the vapor is getting cooled before the valve when it should only condense past the valve. Maybe others will weigh in. If I had to guess, the vapor path is longer than it should be ideally. Meaning, most VM's you put the valve as close to the column as is reasonable.

Edit: the other thought is that your valve is lower than the reducer. I'm not saying it should be higher, I'm saying if it was dead even with the reducer then distillate wouldn't pool behind it. Maybe. I haven't seen this design before.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by bearriver »

Off-set heads are outdated. Few of the newer folks are going to be familiar with such a design. Part of the reason they are outdated is this: Inline designs such as a Boka or Dad's CCVM have the RC inline with the column to save money on the build without any loss in performance.

Your problem likely lies in its operation. You can find VM operations in the reading lounge. But I'll give you a tip... I would find out how much heat it takes to flood that column, then back off until the flooding becomes settled above or inside the packing. If you can keep the flooding just above the packing in a safe and controlled manner (stable) then it will perform much better. I call running in this fashion the sweet spot for my reflux still.

Turning the heat way down isn't doing you any favors. I can do this without a sight glass, but a beginner might consider adding one just above the packing to see what is going on.
Last edited by bearriver on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

I think u have it Sussed, Humbledore. When I ran this on stripping runs indoors the valve fully open no probs. today in the snow it is condensing before the valve. In fact my thermometer is telling 75/6 deg C at the takeoff, 4 deg under with cold air.

I will move the valve.

I haven't found nor heard of dads ccvm. What's RC? This in spite of 6 months research on this site trying to remember grad organic chemistry and learning wiped copper joints. And this was an experimental/ theoretical new design on Hooklines collection of drawings and ideas last year!

How should a VM spirit run be done when in hearts? Low heat valve open?
Last edited by casper the Irish on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by humbledore »

It depends on your system and what purity you are shooting for. Most folks run spirit runs with a little less heat. The amount of reflux you are getting is partly determined by the fact that your vapor exit is smaller than the still diameter. Then if you run it slower (valve part closed) you are forcing more reflux, thus higher purity. Some columns probably can get close to azeo wide open. Mine doesn't.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by bearriver »

I edited my post above.

A RC is a reflux condenser.

High heat, valve open fully or removed completely. You don't need it in a VM. Run it slow until the fores and heads are removed without the valve, then put some serious heat to it. Just don't flood it, which can spell disaster.

I push as much heat as my LM can handle during a spirit run. More heat = more reflux = cleaner spirits = faster takeoff rates.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

Ah! I see, and was hoping that the 1/3 sized exits was doing just that so thanks. So far, maybe until I move the valve, I can't get better than 90% no matter how I slow the flow. Same difference ooen or closed although the taste does seem to change, better slower.

Also, I will want whiskey when I know better what I am doing so 90% is good enough if not too clean. However, this is for vodka and gin, so to get my 95% I might have to dilute and run a third time?
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

So bear river I need to move remove the valve. How is the vapour then managed, as in VM?

Also, in this head I was thinking what is going on inside... If I push the flow I would push water vapour out too. Keeping it lower heat is less turbulence and the horizontal lets the vapours separate into two layers, light water and heavy ethanol??
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

So high heat, a stream of distillate running max output. I then depend on the design to separate ethanol from water and to reflux a) with theoretical plates, packing height and rings and b) condenser recycling mixed vapours c) drawing off heavier ethanol

I see. Neither heat nor vapor control. Just run her flat out as she is made.

Perhaps if I remove the valve and set the condenser arm nearer the vertical column and away from the takeoff outlet? Alter Hooklines design?
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by RandyMarshCT »

Casper, this is DAD's CCVM: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768

You lower the reflux coil into the vapor path to prevent any escape of vapor until the column has reached equilibrium. Fantastic design with no valve at all. You would have to be able to do this to remove your valve.

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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by humbledore »

I would recommend that you read this if you haven't already, casper. People saying to get rid of your valve is a little of a tangent. Sure if you are going to redesign the whole thing. If you have a valve on your VM this will tell you more about how to run it. In it kiwidistiller talks about the balance of heat and valve opening during the hearts. He runs it open on a 1.5M column, with this caveat which is kind of what I was referring to:
If I want a really top shelf neutral, I'll run it with a higher reflux ratio, maybe 1.5:1 or as high as 2:1. Some folks are fussier than I and would run 2:1 or higher, but I'd say that a ratio of 2:1 will please 95% of the people out there, and a good lot would settle for less. With a 2:1 ratio, the centre of hearts (after dilution) has absolutely no taste whatsoever to my senses. Again, YMMV.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

Phew! Ta Humbledore, I was scratching my lower brain as I felt me losing my grasp on this run, opened valves, getting the fouling taste of tails, not a good product anymore. Then I realised, how can I get total reflux without a shutoff valve. And why try, CCVM looks more complex to craft, my coils are a bit rough yet a valve is only 5ukp or 7usd

Read kiwis tiller link with great interest, a good answer that empowers deeper understanding.

Screwed down the valve and foul tails gone, back to sweet quite excellent vodka.

What happens with VM when the ABV drops does the spirit slow but stay clean (unwatched) till it's not worth the propane? I am used to potstill where it keeps runnin thru tails till water. That's a lot of 40 or 50% pot ale to ditch, is that what happens on a VM spirit run?

I put a wee reservoir in my condenser, if I drill a 10mm hole there for an outlet I can convert to bokakob. Is that better to grab tails if I want whiskey or rum? Not sure what I could do with sugar tails except chuck it....

Too many q, sorry to jump around so much
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by humbledore »

You see all this feedback from different people on how they run their rig...each one is different. Different diameters, heights, valve locations, packing, etc. But in principle it's the same with any reflux column, when you reduce throughput by closing up the valve you are increasing purity. For heads and tails you use this to compress them. The spirit slows but will not "stay clean" as you say, if you are into tails. But you can increase the ABV by slowing the output, keep the heat constant or increase a bit. Then the final few jars will just come out tasting like smelly water, time to quit.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

Got overconfident, after the first 4 jars began collecting in a 5 gallon tub. 2 gallons of good stuff at steady 76°C 89% abv so came indoors online here as really nasty tails sneaked in at 77° 87%. Like an oily ketone still can't get the taste out of my mouth the next day.

Ah well, Triple stilled can't be too extreme, maybe try and make a gin basket out of a spare foot of 2" copper to benefit from the extra run
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by DAD300 »

I collect after that "oily" jar. The oil doesn't persist too long and depending on the recipe, there is good stuff after.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

What is that oil? Can I expect it from grain as well as sugar/molasses?

I wondered if it was me dumping stripping feints (from corn or Molly stripping runs) into the sugar wash low wines, with baking soda for a few weeks to neuter it. Does that oil appear with any base spirit run? Yuck, still tasting it and can't wash it out of my packing. I saved the ale, about half the original charge left but if you think it can run clean again? Maybe I could potstill that jar out....

I need to run more low wines to charge my keg so I have time to rebuild in the next week with your advices.
I have moved the valve up horizontal with the lyne arm now. At the moment both are together, outtake and condenser on one side and column on the other side. Returning liquids rain down onto the vapor beside the thermometer, ethanol exits there at 75°c which is weird since its BP is 78+
ABV seems stuck on 89% so far. I could move the condenser away from there nearer to the column.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by still_stirrin »

Casper,

I've never fermented molassis, but I've done a number of sugar washes, all grain beers and even honey ferments. I've not noticed significant oils in the distillate. I ran a higher (than desireable) gravity sugar wash once that did spit out a tiny bit of oil (glisten). But that was very short-lived and occured in the very early heads.

But if you're seeing significant oils, my first suspect would be from the molassis especially due to the high quantity of solids in the source. I would ask for assistance from the knowledge base of rum (molassis) fermenters here. Its far from my expertise.

But I am interested in the answers too. Good luck.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by DAD300 »

It's a fraction of the tails...it happens with any ferment if you go far enough into the tails.

" 4195. Fusel Oil.
A by-product of carbohydrate (sugar) fermentation to produce ethyl alc. The material varies widely in composition, depending on the fermentation raw material used, but contains chiefly isopentyl alcohol and 2-methyl-1-butanol as well as isobutyl alcohol(20%), n-propyl alcohol(3-5%), and small amounts of other alcohols, esters and aldehydes. Described as an oily liq with a disagreeable odor; 60% boils at 122-138°. Amyl alcohol (commercial) obtained by chemical treatment and refining of fusel oil contains about 85% isopentyl alcohol and 15% 2-methyl-1-butanol. Ref: Industrial Chemicals, W.L. Faith et al."

But there is good alcohol after all the stinky oil has passed. In fact it may be some of the most prized rum.

When tails start I change to smaller containers and try to catch the oil, usually not only stinky but cloudy, and collect more clear alcohol after. It will clear up after that oil.

still_stirrin...you may not have seen them, but I bet you smelled them.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by still_stirrin »

DAD300 wrote:still_stirrin...you may not have seen them, but I bet you smelled them.
Yes, you're right DAD.

I've smelled the fusels. I usually drive pretty deep into the tails and collect for the feints. I've seen the cloudy tails and just a little of the oily sheen on the sugar wash. Perhaps I simply shut down earlier in my all grain runs. I don't know.

But the info you provided does help me understand that portion of the run better. Next time through I'll look closer to see if I can distinguish those fusels.

Thanks all for the insight.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

By deep do you mean on a VM when the drizzle slows to drops, needs more heat and not much reflux... That's where I got to as the temp rose to 97°C and ABV 85%. Even tho my column is 2" the output slowed to 5 drops/sec collecting those fusels. Good to know there's better stuff to come.

Do I dump the fusels? -For rums, are the fusels part of rum oils, to be kept and recycled as feints, or do they preceded the good oils?

And can I assume y'all do stripping runs first?

This experience has helped me make it simpler. My new pot still for stripping runs is a 36l SS cooking pot. Some SS car exhaust pipe welded on the lid, fasteners spot welded and plastic water pipe to act as a sealing gasket.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by still_stirrin »

Casper,

I too see the ouput slow on the VM as I get towards the tails. Typically, on a spirit run I'll run to equilibrium for 30-45 minutes to compress the heads and set up the column. Then pull off the foreshots and early heads through the LM takeoff (mine happens to be a concentric, but a Boka would work the same).

After draining the fores, I once again close the LM valve and let the system stabilize again (10-15 minutes). Then open the VM ball valve 1/2 open. This gives me approximately a 9 or 10:1 reflux ratio (VM valve is 1" diameter on a 2" column, giving a minimum 4:1 reflux ratio). I adjust the heat so the flow is slow, but steady. And the proof is usually quite stable from the mid-heads all the way into the tails.

When the proof begins to drop, I'm just about done. The takeoff will all but stop. I can open the VM valve fully and increase heat and boil off the last of the tails, collecting in a bigger jar. The proof falls to 30 or 40 proof quite rapidly. There isn't much, if any usuable alcohol left in the backset, as most has been collected already.

Now, architecturally the reflux condenser sits directly on top of the column (above the VM takeoff Tee, actually). Reflux drips back down the column, of course. And the LM collection cup is above the VM Tee and at the bottom of the reflux condenser. I use a shotgun product condenser on the VM output (after the VM valve).

I think that DAD's CCVM is a slick innovation and I'd probably be using one of those if the design existed when I started my build. But it didn't. So I built on Rad's concentric LM/VM design. And I'm very please with its operation and performance. I can pull 190 proof off the 39" marble packed column.

But for stripping runs, I have a pot still head: a short 2" tube that turns via 90 elbow to the shotgun product condenser. Just turn up the heat and let it rip!

Now, once the hardware is built and you've mastered how to operate it all, the challenge is making those cuts and/or mastering the art of blending. Its a great hobby.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

That's encouraging ss, interested you say the architectural ratio is set by the constructed diameters, tweaked by valve (if fitted). My takeoff from 2" column is 3/4" so do I have a built in reflux ratio of about 2.5:1 ?
54/22 =2.45
The hookline column I built has the refluxer vertical but offset, although effectively on top of column and before the outtake. It has internal rings and wire mesh packing.

I also enjoyed and followed RADs design but in 2" copper, making it modular in height and incorporating a boka collar in below the coil. So it's VM but can become boka if I added a 10mm drain. However my first completed column was not this VM but a 3" SS bokakob and that's what I used for my first (and only so far) rum run.

Does the boka allow more control and deeper graded cuts than the VM? The boka needs constant attention as the ABV drops, each litre is different, flow stays high at steady low heat. The VM seems to deliver at constant 89% ABV with reducing flow before hitting tails pretty sharply, seems to need more heat input management

I have modified the outtake a little and will use the valve/ heat to try tweaking the next neutral run for higher ABV. If that gets no better than 90% am I tied to this architecture, need to think about a MkIII still head??
Last edited by casper the Irish on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by humbledore »

There are probably tweaks you can do to that column. First how tall is it? Taller is better for purity. What kind of packing are you using? Some are better than others. Do you have a centering ring to return the distillate to the center of the column rather than it running down the side?
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by casper the Irish »

Yes I have two possibly three copper sections each with a centering ring at top end. 18" 36" and 12" modules, an unsoldered connector on each to slot them together.
I start with a short SS pipe with flange tri-clamped to keg, then slot in the 18" then 36" then head. Column height 60", could be 72". So with the reflux pipe added I already need a stepladder to reach and feel the top so 72" would put it not just out of reach but into full view of my neighbours in my city garden. I have learned not to trust nosey neighbours.

Currently using several dozen SS pot scrubbers packed into copper mesh which lets me remove easily for cleaning. I intended to buy more pure copper mesh to improve this, replace the scrubbers with rolled copper mesh.

This 2" copper column bends at the top into a lyne arm (also 2") which is also packed. No tee. After 12" there is a tee, with 22mm reducer up into refluxer. Then a horizontal reducer into 22mm takeoff.
I moved the takeoff ballvalve horizontal and tight to the lyne arm. I have extended the 22mm pipe after the valve immediately downwards for 12" it used to run horizontal 12" then down. This should let ethanol flow and seperate better.

The condenser rains distillates into the lyne arm, possibly cooling or stirring the flow of ethanol as it exits. That was Hooks design, I wondered if shifting it away would do anything. I imagine the design idea is to help condense water vapour at the exit so it should work there.

I am inexperienced in managing the run, maybe practice will improve the yield!
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Re: VM spirit run, neutral

Post by humbledore »

I agree that getting more experience running it could help make sure you're getting the best result. I routinely hit better than 90% and my column is 2" by 48" with an inline reflux condenser on top. Seems with that height column you'd get higher ABV. I don't think copper scrubbers will provide any more purity than SS, and if you've got a copper column you're probably fine. Not sure the packing in the horizontal portion is doing anything because there's no reflux going through it. I assume the reflux runs along the bottom of the horizontal section.

Another question, why would you have a a reducer into the reflux condenser? Was this a decision based on the cost of the fitting/T? I would think you'd want the full 2" right up to the reflux condenser. Not sure that impacts purity but just a question.
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