My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

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My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:23 pm

Happy New Year

Today I decided to do an all grain mash
I used
Malted rye 10 lbs
Malted barely 10 lbs
Cracked corn 5 lbs
(In 12 gallons of water) total

First I boiled the corn at 200f for 1.5 hours to breake the starch out
Perhaps 3 gallons corn and liquid.

I boiled up 9 gallons of water and added my rye and barley
along with my corn slime into my fermenter
Stirred the daylights out of it (temp was at 150)
then let it sit. covered in an insulated blanket
Stirring every 15 min for an hour and a half
Things liquified well seems more viscous than
A sweet feed sugar wash...
I tested the sg and it read 1.20 this is where I get lost
Is that high ? Do I need another decimal point
Making it 1.020 then with that number it seems lower?

I think I have at least done something correct as my mash
Is not a sticker mess.

Some clarification would help as I am confused
Thank you

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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby acfixer69 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:31 pm

First thought is, are you temperature correct and are there solids in there.

AC
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:46 pm

No solids I used a mesh mash bag, the hydrometer conversion, could be a problem if I did the math wrong. I will double check.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby TDick » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:25 pm

I am a NOOB
:mrgreen:
That being said, I suggest going to Tried and True Recipes and find an all grain recipe.
I ASSuME since you joined 2 months ago, you've read Cranky's Spoon Fed and the other "STRONGLY SUGGESTED" posts for Noobs.

Whether you choose to follow the grain bill or not, read the entire thread for the recipe!
It will show you the logic and thought process of someone who has succeeded in what you are trying to do.
Also questions and observations from others who have tried the same recipe.

Just an noob observation, I did NOT read your procedure, but it looks like you used 2 pounds of grain per gallon of water.
I was told use minimum of 2.5 to 3 pounds per gallon.
But again, read a recipe and follow their guidance.
Good luck!
:mrgreen:
Last edited by TDick on Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby zapata » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:30 pm

Something is off. No way you could possibly be at 1.200 (you would be below 1.100 even if your grains were 100% sugar).

The word "cracked corn" stands out, corn usually should be ground much finer than a crack. But you're right about the opposite too, 1.020 does seem too low given the high ratio of barley and rye malts should have easily given more than that.

Double check the gravity reading and temperature?
Does it pass the iodine test?
How does it taste?
Last edited by zapata on Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby fizzix » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:32 pm

workpress wrote:...I boiled up 9 gallons of water and added my rye and barley along with my corn slime into my fermenter
Stirred the daylights out of it (temp was at 150) then let it sit...


To clarify, you added rye and barley at 150°right?
The way it's worded it LOOKS like you added them and the corn slime to the 9 gallons of boiling water, and only stirred at 150.
Sorry if I'm reading that wrong.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:51 pm

Thanks for the replies so far so fast

I added the boiled water (200f) to the 20 lbs of rye and barley
Stirred it up well and then mixed in my corn. Also used some cool water to wash out
My pots. The temperature at this point was 158f.

As for the iodine test I have not done it as i have to get some and will
test it in a couple hours (have to socialize with family...lol) but I am assuming it is ok sort of
because the mash is liquid and not a gummy mess.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby jb-texshine » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:58 pm

workpress wrote:Thanks for the replies so far so fast

I added the boiled water (200f) to the 20 lbs of rye and barley
Stirred it up well and then mixed in my corn. Also used some cool water to wash out
My pots. The temperature at this point was 158f.

As for the iodine test I have not done it as i have to get some and will
test it in a couple hours (have to socialize with family...lol) but I am assuming it is ok sort of
because the mash is liquid and not a gummy mess.

You denatured the enzymes. The malt mash temp is 148-155 max. Throw some sugar in it or heat the whole lot and hit it with enzymes or malt.
Remember not to blow yourself up,you only get to forget once!


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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:08 pm

So... even mixing in the grain at 200f into the water for as short time can
denature the enzymes in the grain? Wow interesting ....
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:14 pm

This adventure is based on uncle Jesse’s how I do a cooked rye mash...
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby bitter » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:18 pm

Yeah you definitely denatured the enzymes. You could get some more malt heat things up and then add some milled malt (6 row) aiming at a temp of about 145-150f. When making beer you bring the temp to 170 f to stop all conversion and denature the enzymes for mashout. And for beer anything above about 156-158f is not going to get any ferment-able sugars.. You want in the 145-148F ideally for the most ferment-able wort.

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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:32 pm

workpress wrote:So... even mixing in the grain at 200f into the water for as short time can
denature the enzymes in the grain? Wow interesting ....

UJ uses 170F strike water in his rye recipe and the mash quickly goes down to 150f.
Using 200F strike water will definitely wipe out your malts.

I like to add my grains at 150F and then heat the mash back up to 148F.
Some suggest mashing at even lower temps.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby jb-texshine » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:44 pm

Homebrewing.com strike water temp calculator is what I use. Wish we had one like it here...
Remember not to blow yourself up,you only get to forget once!


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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby zapata » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:53 pm

So, assuming you dont have high quality enzymes laying around.... but if you heat it up to 150, you'll want to add about 7 pounds of 2 row or 6 pounds of 6 row malt to convert everything. Based on brewers friend recipe calculator.

Or just add sugar and make it a sugar head.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby corene1 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:22 pm

I would agree that you denatured your enzymes and you should either reheat your mash to 148-150 and add liquid enzymes or add more water and mash in some more malted grain at 148 to 150 . You could make it into a sugar head also.
Just a thought on your procedure for next time using that grain bill. I would take 7 gallons of water and bring it to a boil then turn off the heat and stir in your crack corn and get it mixed well. Fire up the burner again and bring the mix back to a slow boil stirring constantly for about 15 minuets this will keep it from scorching. Cracked corn is tough to get all the starch out of and it needs a lot of muscle to make it right. Turn the heat off and let it rest at temperature for at least 90 more minuets stirring occasionally. At 185 I use some high temp liquid enzymes but at 5 pounds of corn and 7 gallons of water it shouldn't get too thick. After that I would add the remaining 5 gallons of water and get the entire batch batch of corn and water to 156 degrees and stir in the 20 pounds of malted grains . Make sure they are ground so they will release their starch and enzymes . Hold this at 148 for at least 60 to 90 minuets and stir occasionally. I wrap my mash tun with a heating blanket during this process to help hold the temperature steady. Then let the mash rest and cool. there should be a nice liquid layer on top after awhile. Take a sample of this clear liquid and cool it to do your SG test with ,not the cloudy mash. It should be in the 1.052 to 1.058 range a bit higher or lower depending on the efficiency of your grains and mashing procedure. A perfect conversion should be 1.069 so figure 85% of that would be a very good conversion. Cool the mash down to your yeasts preferred fermentation temperature and there you have it. You should also read about nutrients and PH balances. All are necessary for a good AG mash. Here is a nice calculator to help determine strike water temperatures for any desired grain bill and resting schedule. https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/.
AG mashes are not difficult but are very demanding that you use proper mash protocall.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby HDNB » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:27 pm

personally i'd go for the enzyme or more malt...and soon! sugar heading that mess 'o unfermentables is begging for a stall.

hard to distill stalled 1.05 material and get a quality product.

on the bright side, 25 pounds of grain ain't likely gonna break you...so it may be a good time to toss it, take your lumps and make a new mash. after reading a bit more about the process?

but what do i know...2 of my last 5 ferments stalled. beats the shit outta me why. i used the exact ingredients, temperatures and PH on all 5. i think ima go read for a while!
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Wow I am always amazed at the helpfulness here thank you guys
I gave a lot to learn and I am in the correct place for that I will keep
you posted... I am going to get som liquid enzymes tomorrow...

Thanks for the help

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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:49 pm

So I re heated my mash up to 145f
and added amylase enzyme stirred it in and let it hold at temp for 1 hour
I sampled again with my hydrometer and corrected the reading to be
sg 1.075 still on the low side but I pitched my yeast so we will see how
it ferments.

Again thank you for the great advice

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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby StillerBoy » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:01 pm

Hope you gave it a good stir to oxygenate the mash, and watch the Ph within 24 hours..

HDNB.. it may apply to you on your stalled ferments..

Mars
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby fizzix » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:28 am

workpress, here are a couple of charts that got my mind right over the heat/enzyme issues:

denature chart.jpg

chart2.JPG
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:28 am

Thank you the time temp chart on top is great.

Thank you

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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby still_stirrin » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:53 am

workpress wrote:Thank you the time temp chart on top is great.

And “the curve” for 170*F would be a vertical line ON the Y-axis....no measreable time of activity...denatured immediately.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:43 am

Hi fellas

So to update you on my progress with this all grain adventure, I have learned a lot and have more work to do on my second attempt. Thank you all again.

So my wash fermented out in 9 days due to the cooler temps. And my sg was at 0.995. I tan it through my pot still and the alcohol was quite fruity and mellow the final collection was at 74% when the two runs were mixed into my aging jar. I then toasted and charred some red oak cubes and am letting it age so far the coloure is a light pink and the smell is fabulous. So I will wait and see what happens to it in 6 months lol

Thank you again for the advice and comments

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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby fizzix » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:56 am

Hey that's great. Nice low finish at 0.995, too.
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby rgreen2002 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:54 am

Good on you workpress.

Two pieces of advice for the future:

1. Read here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion
The info is "must know" IMHO if you plan on continuing in all grain. The second graph above comes from this site. Usually, still_stirrin drops this bomb on folks(like me). I beat him to the punch :lol:

2. Have a look here: https://enzymash.biz/index.php?route=common/home
Liquid enzymes, again IMHO, give you a more complete conversion and in the long run will be cheaper than malting or purchasing pounds of malted grains. I have not really noticed a taste difference and last I recall no one else has posted about a real difference as of yet( I haven't looked in a while TBH). They are idiot proof for idiots like me!
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby jonnys_spirit » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:36 pm

workpress wrote:Hi fellas

So to update you on my progress with this all grain adventure, I have learned a lot and have more work to do on my second attempt. Thank you all again.

So my wash fermented out in 9 days due to the cooler temps. And my sg was at 0.995. I tan it through my pot still and the alcohol was quite fruity and mellow the final collection was at 74% when the two runs were mixed into my aging jar. I then toasted and charred some red oak cubes and am letting it age so far the coloure is a light pink and the smell is fabulous. So I will wait and see what happens to it in 6 months lol

Thank you again for the advice and comments

Workpress


Hey WP, you might want to pull that red oak and look for some barrel staves or something (white oak). Red oak is much more resinous and I heard it makes liquor smell or taste like cat urine but I could be wrong - I read that on the interwebs.

Good luck and cheers!
-j
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby acfixer69 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:53 pm

jonnys_spirit wrote:
workpress wrote:Hi fellas

So to update you on my progress with this all grain adventure, I have learned a lot and have more work to do on my second attempt. Thank you all again.

So my wash fermented out in 9 days due to the cooler temps. And my sg was at 0.995. I tan it through my pot still and the alcohol was quite fruity and mellow the final collection was at 74% when the two runs were mixed into my aging jar. I then toasted and charred some red oak cubes and am letting it age so far the coloure is a light pink and the smell is fabulous. So I will wait and see what happens to it in 6 months lol

Thank you again for the advice and comments

Workpress


Hey WP, you might want to pull that red oak and look for some barrel staves or something (white oak). Red oak is much more resinous and I heard it makes liquor smell or taste like cat urine but I could be wrong - I read that on the interwebs.

Good luck and cheers!
-j


Red oak is called piss oak up here and makes good pallets.

AC
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby workpress » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:27 am

You guys are a wealth of information, thank you. I did just find a source for whiskey
Barrel stays just two towns over from me, so I am set up. I am slowly going to look for some liquid enzyme
Locally first, then on the web if I have no luck.
Thank you all
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Re: My first try at all grain.... lost I be...

Postby fizzix » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:30 am

As rgreen linked: EnzyMash is a great source for liquid enzymes.
Those are very popular here.
I happen to use Brewhaus Dry Alpha & Gluco enzymes with great success also. Busts up Booner's all-corn nicely.
These would be a second choice. I use them because I'm loyal to Brewhaus (they are just good folks is all) and bought a shit load of it.
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