A CCVM build- with a new twist...

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The Norwegian
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A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

Hi,

Being new here, I thought I would share my plans for the CCVM Im planning on putting together.

I have a Still Spirits T500 that I started with, which I smuggled in from the EU, but Im not satisfied with how it operates, even if I have all the bells and whistles, in order to control the waterflow that hey sell as acessories.

Thought about investing in a Flute still, and looked at the Boka types as well, but got really hooked on the CCVM that Dad300 published here.

His idea got me thinking, as even owning parts that can be used as a still is illegal over here...

- So if I made the whole still modular, and only from ordinary stainless steel pipes and triclamps, combined with a couple of flexible gaslines, they cant really touch me, as Im not in posession of specially made destilling equipement, such as dephlegmators or condencers, just some ss plumbing parts for my brewing equipement along with a heating element that I use with my beer- brewing equipement, as part of a "RIMS- setup".

The twist with my setup is to use a flexible gasline for the condencer as well as teh dephlegmator, where I insert it in the Y- pipe, instead of inserting it from the end of the cvondencerarm, as I saw someone else did in here.

Im planning on making a 2" system, as Im doing this as a hobby, and I just dont drink that much, so using a 3" system would produce far more spirits than I will be able to use, resulting in fewer runs with the still, as I have way to much spirits to drink...

Anyways, here are my CCVM with a twist v1.0

I'll come back with more info on 2x2x0.2 mm SPP and the bottom support element and top pakcking holder that Im planning on using with the still, as well as the gardenhose fittings for the flexible gasline and the other sturr I plan on using in a bit!
My first CCM build with a twist...
My first CCM build with a twist...
Last edited by The Norwegian on Wed May 22, 2019 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My first CCVM build with a twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

And here is the pot still version of my modular still, witih my twist, where I dont use an ordinary condenser, just a stainless steel flexible gas line...

Again, easy to hide around my house and property, nobody will know that it's actually a still, as the common parts that are well known, like the traditional condenser and the dephlegmator, are missing completely in this modular setup!
My twist on the pot still, v1
My twist on the pot still, v1
Last edited by The Norwegian on Wed May 22, 2019 4:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: My first CCVM build with a twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

Spiral Prismatic Packing- SPPS for my CCVM still, with a twist...

I have been looking around for the best packing for my still, and have gone from rashing rings made from stainless steel and copper, or stainless steel and copper scrubbers, over to SPSS, Spiral prismatic packing.

I know there are a lot of threads in here in regards to SPP, but I have still not found one containing facts and tips on how to choose the right size for your own still.

Spiral prismatic packing (SPP) purifies raw alcohol is much better than the Raschig ring and Regular scrubbers used as packing.

Сleaning is measured in theoretical plates (TP), and here are the TP values I have found in regards to dhe different sizes of SPP's.
SPSS.jpg
- SPP size 2,0x2,0x0.20 mm provides cleaning of 1 TP for every 1,5 cm of the moonshine pipe.
- SPP size 3,0x3,0x0.20 mm provides cleaning of 1 TP for every 2,5 cm of the moonshine pipe.
- SPP size 3,5x3,5x0.24 mm provides cleaning of 1 TP for every 3,0 cm of the moonshine pipe.

A general advice has been to use SPP’s that are no more than 1/10 of the dimeter of your still, and smaller SPP's is defietely something to look for. But, to a certain degrree. If they become too small for the size of the still, they might just end up choking your still, and flooding it.

Im now trying to figure out what size stills are recomended with the different sizes of the SPP's, as they come in even more sizes than this;

- 2,0x2,0x0,​20 mm
- 3,0x3,0x0,​20 mm
- 3,5x3,5x​0,22 mm
- 4,0x4,0x0,​24 mm
- 5,0x5,0x0,​40 mm

If anyone has some info and tips in this regard, Im happy to include it in here!
Last edited by The Norwegian on Thu May 23, 2019 12:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: My first CCVM build with a twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

Bottom support and top packing jolder for the SPP in my CCVM Modular still

I thought of using ordinary scrubbers, like most of you in here, but found these made in Russia by the (re-)inventers of the SPP's, and I just have to have them!

Using these will help prevent flooding and give more control with what happens both at the top and the bottom of the still, so hopefully it will help me get even better spirits than I would get using the other alternatives
Bottom Support specially made for SPP's
Bottom Support specially made for SPP's
Top support specially made for SPP's
Top support specially made for SPP's
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by still_stirrin »

A couple of observations of your design:

1) There is no copper in the system. Copper is important to help reduce the sulfurs in the product. An all stainless still looks nice and will be less expensive, but it is less than ideal in function. Copper packing would help although most SPP is stainless steel. Other options might be advantageous.

2) The product condenser will not work as you’ve proposed. The vapor must contact the coiled CCST in order to condense. As designed, only the short section of coil jammed into the wye will be in the vapor path. And the long shell below the wye is the best place for the coil to be placed (just like Dad300 has designed). Remember, the vapor will try to follow the path of least resistance (to flow), and that includes the effects of gravity on the vapors.

Both of these observations apply to both configurations, the reflux column and the potstill. The goodness here is that being modular, you can correctly assemble the still when you find out the functional failure of your proposed design. But, you’ll have a room full of alcohol vapors surrounding you, so be extremely careful.
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

still_stirrin wrote:A couple of observations of your design:

1) There is no copper in the system. Copper is important to help reduce the sulfurs in the product. An all stainless still looks nice and will be less expensive, but it is less than ideal in function. Copper packing would help although most SPP is stainless steel. Other options might be advantageous.

2) The product condenser will not work as you’ve proposed. The vapor must contact the coiled CCST in order to condense. As designed, only the short section of coil jammed into the wye will be in the vapor path. And the long shell below the wye is the best place for the coil to be placed (just like Dad300 has designed). Remember, the vapor will try to follow the path of least resistance (to flow), and that includes the effects of gravity on the vapors.

Both of these observations apply to both configurations, the reflux column and the potstill. The goodness here is that being modular, you can correctly assemble the still when you find out the functional failure of your proposed design. But, you’ll have a room full of alcohol vapors surrounding you, so be extremely careful.
ss
1) - I have tried with and without using copper, and wth the mashes that I use, I really cant tell any diffreence at all, just like George Duncan at Barley and Hops also state. Ill use copper scrubbings when making Brandy and Whisky, but for pure spirits, I really dont see the need for it

2) - Its not a short CCST section, it will be made of a 63" twisted CCST, making it 31,5" in lenght, and the CCST will then be bent and pushed down through the 2" pipe that I'll use instead of the traditional condenser, and the opening will be stuffed swith some stainless steele scrubbers.

The picture is only an illustration of the consept, as I hope you understand. I still have to build the whole thing. I might just clamp on a 2 or 3" ekstra 2" tubing on top of the CCSP condenser, if that turns out to be neccesary.

As far as I understand, it works for Dad300 with a completely open top, I just cant see why it will not work on the condeser version as well. The amount of steem that needs to be knocked down is far less that what the CCST has to cope with on the top of the colomn.

Anmyways, Ill give it at try, and if it doesn't work, I'll get an instant drunk, like PopCorn Sutton said when he put his nose close to the outlet from the worm in his iconic movie...
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

I'll try both of these on my build, to see hvich one works the best when it comes to pushing the CCST down the 2" condenser pipe.
Tee 1.jpg
Needless to say, Im putting my bucks on the ones to the right...
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by Tony1964 »

Hi my friend

Would it not be better to do something like this, I've been thinking about trying something similar, I use a shotgun at the min, but, have thought about this type of thing, instead of a "Y" its a "T" with a tri-clamp cap with the CSST water feed soldered through the cap.
IMG_4199.jpg
Forgive the drawing not as professional as yours, but, you get the picture, so to speak.

Cheers and welcome aboard.

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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

Tony1964 wrote:Hi my friend

Would it not be better to do something like this, I've been thinking about trying something similar, I use a shotgun at the min, but, have thought about this type of thing, instead of a "Y" its a "T" with a tri-clamp cap with the CSST water feed soldered through the cap.
IMG_4199.jpg
Forgive the drawing not as professional as yours, but, you get the picture, so to speak.

Cheers and welcome aboard.

Tony
Sometimes, one cannot see the forest for all the trees... of course, Tony, you're spot on, why didnt I think about that as well???

I really do belive thats the way to go too, and its a much simpler rig to set up and take down as well!

But I think that I will keep both tops open, and not solder the CCSP to a top- plate, but just stuff opening with som stainless steel scrubbers in order to vaporize the steam, and thus help direct the vapor down the T and the condeserpipe to the collection cup at the bottom.

Ill update my pic with a v1.2, based on your input, Tony!

(And I dont draw the pics, I just copy and paste them into MS Word, and arrange them as I want, before copying and saving them as jpegs in MS Paint.)
Last edited by The Norwegian on Wed May 22, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

Based on Tonys brilliant input, here is v1.2 of my planned modular CCVM and pot still combo....
My modular CCVM still v1.2
My modular CCVM still v1.2
My modular pot still
My modular pot still
Come to think about it, I might just change the first Tee with a 90 degree bend, and skip the top cap altogether. v1.3 is on its way!

Exelent!!!
Last edited by The Norwegian on Wed May 22, 2019 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

And here is v1.3 of my modular pot still plans, without an ordinary, prefabricated condenser, just using a twisted CCSP instead.
My modular pot still v1.3
My modular pot still v1.3
Thanks again, Tony!
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by Tony1964 »

Let us know how you get on, a few temps of the product output would be nice as well

Cheers

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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by DAD300 »

Norwegian,

still_stirrin has the point...your Product Condenser wont work, and has an unnecessary potential vapor leak.

In the product condenser side, the coil needs to be below the "T" and the top of the "T" closed/capped. If it is in the "T" it is acting as another closed valve and if raised above the "T" it will let vapor leak out the bottom without condensing it.

Cap the top of the condenser side. Put the coil about two below the "T" with the water connections coming out the bottom of the Product Condenser.

Same parts just arranged differently.

On SPP size, smaller will get more purity at the cost of slower output.

My opinion is, 2"/50mm column will be most balanced for speed and purity with 3mm x 5mm SPP in a 24"-30" high column.

Of what you showed, the 3.5 x 3.5 stuff will be small enough.
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

DAD300 wrote:Norwegian,

still_stirrin has the point...your Product Condenser wont work, and has an unnecessary potential vapor leak.

In the product condenser side, the coil needs to be below the "T" and the top of the "T" closed/capped. If it is in the "T" it is acting as another closed valve and if raised above the "T" it will let vapor leak out the bottom without condensing it.

Cap the top of the condenser side. Put the coil about two below the "T" with the water connections coming out the bottom of the Product Condenser.

Same parts just arranged differently.

On SPP size, smaller will get more purity at the cost of slower output.

My opinion is, 2"/50mm column will be most balanced for speed and purity with 3mm x 5mm SPP in a 24"-30" high column.

Of what you showed, the 3.5 x 3.5 stuff will be small enough.
Thanks for great input, DAD300!

I've made another go at it, wanting to have the water connections coming in from the top of the condenser, and with the new setup, the CCSP water- condenser comes into the Y- connection approx. 3-4" under the "T-valve" from the column by adding a extra 2-4" tube before the Y- connection. (Nope, Im not giving up just yet...)
My CCVM v1.3.jpg
I have also made some new calculations, that I really would like your and ODIN's help with, in regards to putting together a column still that will function optimally, in regards to chhosing the right size SPP, column diameter and hight, and wattage on the heating element.

I'll attach it here, and I have meda another thread with this info, that can be found here;

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=74620
DATA_SHEET_REGARDING_THE_CHOICE_OF_SPP_IN_DIFFERENT_COLOMN_SIZES-page-001.jpg
Im trying to make a data sheet that would be of great help for all of us, when it comes to choosing the correct SPP size, dimensions for the column, combinded with choosing the correct heating elements, and the possibility to change the wattage according to how the still operates with the different sized SPP.
HETP_FOR_CERAMICS_SCRUBBERS_AND_SPP-page-001.jpg
Thats my 2 cents for now...
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by kimbodious »

Your design is more complex and will cost more than you need to get the job done.

Apart from being a bling thing the sight tower above the offtake won’t be all that helpful. You would need a longer piece of spool above the offtake, mine uses a 305mm length.I use the same short spool section as the riser on my pot still

You could use a 90 degree elbow from the offtake instead of where you have the 45 degree bend and short spool section.

Dad’s suggestion of a dimroth style product condenser with the plumbing coming out the outlet of the PC is a simple elegant tried and true solution :thumbup:
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

kimbodious wrote:Your design is more complex and will cost more than you need to get the job done.

Apart from being a bling thing the sight tower above the offtake won’t be all that helpful. You would need a longer piece of spool above the offtake, mine uses a 305mm length.I use the same short spool section as the riser on my pot still

You could use a 90 degree elbow from the offtake instead of where you have the 45 degree bend and short spool section.

Dad’s suggestion of a dimroth style product condenser with the plumbing coming out the outlet of the PC is a simple elegant tried and true solution :thumbup:
I know, kombodious, but Im curious, and just want to see what really happens at the "valve", as well as on the top of the SPP's. The sightglass and spool over that is 30 cm in total, so it will be approx the same as yours.

The upper sightglass might as well be placed at the bottom of the column, in order to keep an eye on the flooding stage at both ends of the SPP's. IN that case, I'll just put a 30 cm spool on top, like you use on yours.

And I might just end up with DAD's version as well, but I just got to try my twist, I think it just looks better, and its my twist, so to say... Also, I dont have to support a lot of stuff under the takeoff- opening in order to keep the SSCP in the PC and balancing the pickup- jar under there as well at the same time.

My plan is to use a FDD beertube from the product port and down im my collection jar, much easier to handle, or at least I like to think so...
Last edited by The Norwegian on Fri May 24, 2019 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by kimbodious »

Check out my CCVM , link in signature, to see the tube I use from the PC to the collection jar. Packed column reflux stills are tall. I have my still set up right beside a table so that the collection jars are at a manageable height
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Re: My first CCVM build with a twist...

Post by NZChris »

The Norwegian wrote: Spiral Prismatic Packing- SPPS for my CCVM still, with a twist...I have been looking around for the best packing for my still, and have gone from rashing rings made from stainless steel and copper, or stainless steel and copper scrubbers, over to SPSS, Spiral prismatic packing.
I notice that there is no copper in your boiler, column and dephlegmator. SS might be cheap, but it is second best to copper for flavor reasons. The most disappointing product from good wash I've ever smelled was coming from an all SS reflux still when the distiller decided not to use his usual copper packing.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

kimbodious wrote:Check out my CCVM , link in signature, to see the tube I use from the PC to the collection jar. Packed column reflux stills are tall. I have my still set up right beside a table so that the collection jars are at a manageable height
You bet, Ive seen your rig more than... well... quite a few times...

My rig won't be that tall, I'm aiming for a total height for the SPP part of the column to be approx 120-150 cm.

This is why Im working my ass off trying to figure out the best combination of SPP- size in regards to the height and diameter of the column, and the heting element that is needed to run the rig (see my data sheet a bit further up).

Im aiming for between 40-60 TP, and thus Im working on getting the right size SPP to achieve this, but without going for the mallest ones, that will slow down the production rate considerably.
Last edited by The Norwegian on Fri May 24, 2019 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My first CCVM build with a twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

NZChris wrote:
The Norwegian wrote: Spiral Prismatic Packing- SPPS for my CCVM still, with a twist...I have been looking around for the best packing for my still, and have gone from rashing rings made from stainless steel and copper, or stainless steel and copper scrubbers, over to SPSS, Spiral prismatic packing.
I notice that there is no copper in your boiler, column and dephlegmator. SS might be cheap, but it is second best to copper for flavor reasons. The most disappointing product from good wash I've ever smelled was coming from an all SS reflux still when the distiller decided not to use his usual copper packing.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf
I know, NZChriss, and I have tried with and without using copper wth the mashes that I use, and I really cant tell any diffreence at all, just like George Duncan at Barley and Hops also states in his YouTube Channel. I' might use some copper SPP's or scrubbers when making Brandy and Whisky along with the Stanless sttel SPP's.

For pure spirits, made with quality distillers yeast, sugar, nutrients and liquid active carbon, areated water for 48 hours to get rid of traces of chlorine from the tap water, PH adjusted to 5,2, fermentet at 18-20 degrees celcius, cleared with Turbo Clear and then coldcrushed in a fridge for 7 days before distilling, I really dont see the need for it.
Last edited by The Norwegian on Fri May 24, 2019 3:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by Yummyrum »

I think this is your best choice of all your ideas . But you must have the coil positioned so half is above the Tee and half is below it .
7465A0E1-754B-4179-9414-5EC6B693073D.jpeg
7465A0E1-754B-4179-9414-5EC6B693073D.jpeg (7.94 KiB) Viewed 4029 times
I don’t know what FDD Beer tube is but if its plastic forget it .
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by kimbodious »

Yummyrum wrote:I think this is your best choice of all your ideas . But you must have the coil positioned so half is above the Tee and half is below it .
I take it you mean on the PC side Yummy in which case I agree. There is a version of this design on this forum that I’ll see if I can dig up.

Copper has a role with washes that have some sulfur byproducts eg fruit-based washes. You could put some copper in the vapour path by using a copper potscrubber or two below the SPP
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by Yummyrum »

kimbodious wrote: I take it you mean on the PC side Yummy in which case I agree.
Yes sorry Kimbo , should have been more specific .
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by kimbodious »

Found it, thread by snowman_fs on their twin tee ccvm build viewtopic.php?f=87&t=65622&p=7461817#p7461817 it has great tips and photos!
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

Yummyrum wrote:
kimbodious wrote: I take it you mean on the PC side Yummy in which case I agree.
Yes sorry Kimbo , should have been more specific .
Yup, my plan was to use a 180 cm long CCSP simply twisted double to a 90 cm long coil, that will go all the way down to the end cap for the product collection. To be sure, Ill put some stainless scrubbers in the entry opening on the Y- connection as well.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00P0 ... CPBH&psc=1

The yellow plastic coating is as I understand relatively easy to peel off the ss gas line
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

kimbodious wrote:Found it, thread by snowman_fs on their twin tee ccvm build viewtopic.php?f=87&t=65622&p=7461817#p7461817 it has great tips and photos!
WOW!

Thanks, kimbodious, that was just what I was trying to achieve with my picture sketches consept!

Good to know that my ideas and plans actually can, and do work, Im definately going for the double T- version, nd eventually modify it with a 90 degree elbow and other modular versions, depending on what Im aiming for!

And I might as well go for a bit shorter CCST, but I still think I'll put a short, extra spundle on top of the T on the PC side as well, just to be sure
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by Yummyrum »

You must have at least as much of the coil above the Tee as below . The vapour will split when it hits the Tee , half will go down and half will want yo go up . If you don’t have enough cooling above the Tee , it’s going to come out the top.

Having said that , In Reflux mode , you really only have about 1/10 of the vapour coming out to the Product condenser.So seeing that the Reflux condenser is totally adequate for the job and dealing with 9/10 , you would expect the Product condenser to piss it in seeing they are of similar sizes
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by The Norwegian »

Yummyrum wrote:You must have at least as much of the coil above the Tee as below . The vapour will split when it hits the Tee , half will go down and half will want yo go up . If you don’t have enough cooling above the Tee , it’s going to come out the top.

Having said that , In Reflux mode , you really only have about 1/10 of the vapour coming out to the Product condenser.So seeing that the Reflux condenser is totally adequate for the job and dealing with 9/10 , you would expect the Product condenser to piss it in seeing they are of similar sizes
*LOL* I hear you... My thought was to have a regular reflux condenser on top of the column, and a double twisted condenser in the PC side of the rig. After seeing the pics from a similar rig, Im considering cutting the size down, but still keep the extra short spool on top, making the condenser on the PC look more like the reflux condecer on the column side.

I really hope it works, as it just looks kick- ass good!
kimbodious
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Location: Far northern tropics of Australia.

Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by kimbodious »

Sorting through my ‘stilling pics today I found these diagrams I’d done to help explain the 50/50 split that yummy mentions. So if you have four red thingies going up, half (two) split off and fall out the offtake (ethanol vapour being heavier than air at ambient temperature). The other half keep going up until they are turned in to two much smaller green things (condensate) which falls back down in to the boiler.

Dodgy as diagrams but trying to show where the reflux was going to occur based on the temperature of the cooling water. You can feel the warm/cold boundary from the outside of the RC chamber

Another interesting observation is when the bottom side of the offtake outlet is warm but the topside is cool but only for a moment.
93A6435D-CB00-4847-BD1D-F3E75FADA873.jpeg
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50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
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Danespirit
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Re: A CCVM build- with a new twist...

Post by Danespirit »

For what it's worth...if you can't source flexible gas hose there is also the option of making a coil yourself.
Here is how I made mine: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=52290
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