How long before first success?

Many like to post about a first successful ferment (or first all grain mash), or first still built/bought or first good run of the still. Tell us about all of these great times here.
Pics are VERY welcome, we drool over pretty copper 8)

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WithOrWithoutU2
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How long before first success?

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

So I have ran several spirit runs now and have not had a successful run that I would be glad to share or even drink myself. A couple here have given me encouragement and given some good advice.

So it got me thinking, how many spirit runs (not counting stripping) did it take the average member on this forum until they had a successful run that they enjoyed and would be proud to share with other?

I'd also like to hear the #1 bit of advice that helped you get over that hump.

My hope is this thread will show others that it in fact does take PRACTICE and the learning curve varies.



BTW...The #1 thing I am changing to shorten the learning curve is to stick with one recipe and protocol.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by NZChris »

The first one was fine.

There was no internet as we know it now, so I did my research in a University library and got materials advice from an industrial gasket supplier.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

NZChris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:59 pm One.

There was no internet as we know it now, so I did my research in a University library and got materials advice from an industrial gasket supplier.
Ah, it all makes sense now....

I crushed my first whiskey right outta the gate.
All grain, delicious.

Then it took me 5 years to do it again.

Read, brew, taste, learn.... patience will take you there.
That and all-grain!
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Beerswimmer »

My first was UJSSM on my stovetop, was so much better than I thought it would be. My first rum also shocked me at how good it was.
Ut Alii Vivant!!!!
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

MichiganCornhusker wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:06 pm
NZChris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:59 pm One.

There was no internet as we know it now, so I did my research in a University library and got materials advice from an industrial gasket supplier.
Ah, it all makes sense now....

I crushed my first whiskey right outta the gate.
All grain, delicious.

Then it took me 5 years to do it again.

Read, brew, taste, learn.... patience will take you there.
That and all-grain!
I actually think that has to be more frustrating to do so well out of the gate only to not being able to replicate for awhile. :o
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by cayars »

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:38 pm So I have ran several spirit runs now and have not had a successful run that I would be glad to share or even drink myself. A couple here have given me encouragement and given some good advice.

I'd also like to hear the #1 bit of advice that helped you get over that hump.
If using sugar washes, stop and use other ingredients. If you want to make a brandy, rum or whiskey they aren't made from sugar but from fruits, molasses or grains.
To me the difference is ingredients, process and ferment. I personally do not like sugar washes and think they taste awful compared to what you could make. They just have no character in my book. I've tried many different sugar washes but just don't like them for trying to make a whiskey like product. Switch to grains, everything else done the same and there is a world of difference to me.

Same for refluxed neutrals from sugar washes. Sugar washes just taste thin, with no body to me and make a lousy martini without glycerin or something to add some body/mouthfeel back.

To me it's all about the ingredients and ferment. If the ferment tastes bad or lack luster the spirit will as well. If I want to make a great brandy, I start with a good distillers wine that I could drink as is. If I want to make a great whiskey I want to start with a good distiller's beer (sans hops) that's drinkable on it's own. Notice I said "distiller's" wine and beer as opposed to normal wine or beer. I don't want it sweet but dry (all sugars fermented) but they should taste good for being dry and higher abv then an equivalent wine/beer might be.

No sugar washes to me fit this profile of tasting good before distilling. Maybe if I added boxes of cereal or something to add flavor but why? The cost will easily get much higher then using "real ingredients" that are associated with the spirit as normally sold. Some sugar washes will actually add grains for taste but if I'm going to have to separate the wort from the grains I want to make sure I got the sugars from them or it's not worth my times. The difference in flavor is well worth it anyway.

Others will say they can make good sugar wash spirits and I say "good for them". I can make it "good" as well for what it is but it's still different then starting with something that has the character of what you intend to make.

So the first question I'd ask is what types of ferments (ingredients) you've been using and what types of spirit are you trying to make? Maybe take a time out from distilling and try a couple small batches of wine and beer to make a clean drink then come back to distilling.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

My fails were the first 2-3 washes.....using turbo yeast, clearing agents, plastic filters and carbon as recomended to my son by the local homebrew shop.
He started on the hobby but quickly lost interest.....I inherited the still and all of the associated garbage that came with it.
After two washes that stunk....and horrible booze I found the world of forums, tried and true recipes and cuts.
Things then improved immediately and just got better and better.
Advice would be...stick with one wash for a while......learn to run slow n steady.....give your booze plenty of airing time before cutting......it will make learning cuts easier.
Don't sweat loosing a little booze to the angels if you want quality.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The fact that you can not make good neutral as stated above is garbage.....thousands of people world wide do it everyday. You just need a decent still ...and good cuts.
You can't use some half arsed $50 chinese pot still such as Cayars stated that he was using in his introduction.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by cayars »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:37 pm You can't use some half arsed $50 chinese pot still such as Cayars stated that he was using in his introduction.
Jokes on you as it makes great flavored spirits. Why wouldn't it as it's SS & copper? I got it specifically for playing with whiskeys vs neutrals/reflux and I'm now working on replicating the taste I get from it on my larger stills. The copper worm vs a shotgun or liebig condenser makes a lot of difference in taste that I'm after for whiskey. It makes a much better Scotch or Irish type whiskey.

I'd have no problem recommending it to anyone as it makes great spirits and works well but again why wouldn't it? It of course is not $50. :)

But garbage in = garbage out. Sugar washes are void of flavor compared to fruits, grains & molasses. Trying to make a flavored spirit from something that lacks flavor by it's very nature is just going to have you chasing your tail. Ask any cook and they'll tell you it's not the pots and pans they use that makes their food taste great but the ingredients they use. No different here.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Tummydoc »

Your mash/wash recipe is important, but boiler size made the biggest improvement in my results. When I used a 5 gallon boiler I thought it was BS that folks said they made better than commercial products. With a 15 gallon boiler I make better cuts, and am no longer tempted to include marginal jars to preserve volume.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

cayars wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:32 pm
WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:38 pm So I have ran several spirit runs now and have not had a successful run that I would be glad to share or even drink myself. A couple here have given me encouragement and given some good advice.

I'd also like to hear the #1 bit of advice that helped you get over that hump.
....

So the first question I'd ask is what types of ferments (ingredients) you've been using and what types of spirit are you trying to make? Maybe take a time out from distilling and try a couple small batches of wine and beer to make a clean drink then come back to distilling.
Respecfectfully, I have always been taught it is impolite to answer a question with a question. While you may not intend to do so, you seem to have an ability to come into threads, post long dissertations that aren't always relevant to the spirit of the thread, and boom things get derailed.

Please reread my original post. You are welcome to participate and answer those two questions. I would enjoy reading your answers to my questions. Again, those simple questions are 1. How many runs did it take before you had something you would be proud to share? and 2. What was the #1 thing that helped YOU get over that hump? It does not seem you have answered either of these questions.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by cayars »

Ahh, but I did answer both, just with additional information as to why
1) Enough runs to realize sugar wasn't going to cut it for me
2) Switching to grains, molasses and fruits which are what whiskey, rum and wine/brandy are made from
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by The Baker »

Never dull, is it?

Cayars, you said,'Same for refluxed neutrals from sugar washes.' Meaning, in context, not very good.
I have never worked a reflux still, but I made what seemed to be a nice vodka from sugar.

Once through the pot still and then FIVE spirit runs, possibly more effort that it was worth in a 20 litre still
but I was really HAPPY.

I am not pushing any barrows here but do you think there is a difference if a sugar wash is carefully pot stilled?
Rather than reflux?

What do others think?

Thanks,

Geoff
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by NZChris »

The Baker wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:35 pmWhat do others think?
I think Cayars is throwing you a bait and that WithOrWithoutU2 has already made it clear that he doesn't want you to take it.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by The Baker »

NZChris wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:53 pm
The Baker wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:35 pmWhat do others think?
I think Cayars is throwing you a bait and that WithOrWithoutU2 has already made it clear that he doesn't want you to take it.
Not much into the politics of discussion.
Just interested whether others find a difference between pot stilled and reflux distilled sugar spirit.
Or is it just the number of distillations that made my pot stilled vodka good?

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Re: How long before first success?

Post by cayars »

The Baker, I prefer grains for neutral/vodka/gins over sugar washes (or 1/2 grains and 1/2 sugar) not for taste so much, but for body. For example a 20 to 25% use of oats in the recipe really improves the body of the spirit. Since the vodka is basically flavorless the oats makes it stand out and seem like a better premium spirit. I love oats for the body/mouthfeel it adds to spirits. Without the grains/oats the vodka taste thin comparatively.
Personal preference.

WithorWithoutU2, Something to think about you mentioned "stick with one recipe and protocol." If the recipe isn't the greatest or the protocol is flawed you could have problems continuously until one is changed. Maybe tell us what general type of spirit you want to make, what current recipe your using and your protocol. You might get a suggestion on something to possibly change that could help. Besides the recipe it could be a ferment issue, yeast, pH, distillation problem, cuts problem, aging problem or something simple that could be changed. Are you following a Tried & True recipe? Doing it exactly as stated?
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Corsaire »

I'd say practice.
I think it's why ujssm gets recommended to newbies.
Use the same protocol, over and over until you've built confidence. Both in your fermenting and stilling setups. And most importantly, doing more spirit runs and more smelling/tasting/blending, the more you train your senses. That comes in handy when blending, but also when running your still.

I think it took me at least 5 spirit runs (so about 15 strips prior) to make it click in my head.

I run a simple pot though. The learning curve may be different on a reflux still, I don't know.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

cayars wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:10 pm WithorWithoutU2, Something to think about you mentioned "stick with one recipe and protocol." If the recipe isn't the greatest or the protocol is flawed you could have problems continuously until one is changed. Maybe tell us what general type of spirit you want to make, what current recipe your using and your protocol. You might get a suggestion on something to possibly change that could help. Besides the recipe it could be a ferment issue, yeast, pH, distillation problem, cuts problem, aging problem or something simple that could be changed. Are you following a Tried & True recipe? Doing it exactly as stated?
“If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas.”

Again, I would politely ask you to review my earlier comments about the point of this thread and ask you to stick to it so you do not derail it.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by NZChris »

Corsaire wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:04 am I run a simple pot though. The learning curve may be different on a reflux still, I don't know.
My first reflux run was a success. As long as you have done your homework and haven't taken on poor advice from the numerous new experts that are popping up on Youtube and forums, there is no reason why your first run of anything shouldn't be successful.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Corsaire »

Oh they were succesful. In that I got alcohol. It just wasn't up to my standards.
I have a large wok burner that I use for strip runs. I tried a spirit run on it as well, I couldn't turn it low enough so everything was smeared together.
It also took some runs to get my cooling setup dialed in.
Just yesterday I sampled my earliest corn flakes run. It's 3 yrs old now. Not great, lacks complexity but is great in Morgenthaler's version of an amaretto sour.
Still, my point is practice. Especially on the senses part. Running a still isn't too difficult. Fermenting can be trickier, as evidenced by all the stuck ferment threads. But imo the hardest part is blending. Kiwistiller's guide is great, as is your method of making test blends. But you need to train your nose and taste buds.

Second is patience, and possibly note keeping. I don't remember what parts of that cornflakes run made it on oak.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by cayars »

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:23 am
cayars wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:10 pm WithorWithoutU2, Something to think about you mentioned "stick with one recipe and protocol." If the recipe isn't the greatest or the protocol is flawed you could have problems continuously until one is changed. Maybe tell us what general type of spirit you want to make, what current recipe your using and your protocol. You might get a suggestion on something to possibly change that could help. Besides the recipe it could be a ferment issue, yeast, pH, distillation problem, cuts problem, aging problem or something simple that could be changed. Are you following a Tried & True recipe? Doing it exactly as stated?
“If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas.”

Again, I would politely ask you to review my earlier comments about the point of this thread and ask you to stick to it so you do not derail it.
Yep and if your could produce a spirit worth drink (your words) then you wouldn't be asking for help or what people did to change to get a good spirit worth drinking. Is that fair? You need help producing a better spirit correct? Am I wrong?

You asked for the #1 bit of advice that helped you get past this. Do you really only want 1 thing per person, per your op post? Or do you want feedback to improve your product?

So I politely ask again, what recipe you are trying to follow and what protocol you are trying to use? Your words (one recipe, one protocol). And of course I asked if it's a tried and true recipe from the forum (that has worked for many other people, sugar based or not). How are these questions NOT relevant to the thread of you improving your product? How can people help you if they don't have any idea what you are trying to make, how you are making it and what recipe you are using? Are we mind readers?

Many threads have went pages and pages before the flaw was found . Frankly, I'm just asking upfront what recipe and protocol you are using so you don't waste our time with dumb mistakes that many people make. We actually want to help you, but need to know what you are trying to do (and if it makes sense).

This is after all a public forum where others will search and find threads with similar issues to yours. It's not just all about YOU even if you started the thread but everyone who stumbles upon it down the road with the same basic questions.

What's your single recipe and protocol?
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by zed255 »

I started with reflux stilling sugar washes. I was really happy with my first two runs, which were approached with extreme care. Later I experimented with different parameters and had a couple less than ideal runs, but I gained a lot of knowledge and I feel having those partial failures made me a better stiller. I would say it took me five or six runs to get to where I would not hesitate to offer a guest a drink of my likker. I'd posit that the hump was experience in knowing what altering various parameters did during a run, i.e. learning how exactly both how to and how not to run your still.

Now I am venturing into the realm of grains and fruits and other things like gin. I am hopeful that the knowledge and experience I have gained will allow me to produce my first whiskies and brandies with a less steep learning curve, but then maybe it will be new all over again.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

zed255 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:09 am I started with reflux stilling sugar washes. I was really happy with my first two runs, which were approached with extreme care. Later I experimented with different parameters and had a couple less than ideal runs, but I gained a lot of knowledge and I feel having those partial failures made me a better stiller. I would say it took me five or six runs to get to where I would not hesitate to offer a guest a drink of my likker. I'd posit that the hump was experience in knowing what altering various parameters did during a run, i.e. learning how exactly both how to and how not to run your still.
Now there is something worth taking note of :thumbup:
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by kimbodious »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:33 pm My fails were the first 2-3 washes.....using turbo yeast, clearing agents, plastic filters and carbon as recomended ... by the local homebrew shop.
After two washes that stunk....and horrible booze I found the world of forums, tried and true recipes and cuts.
Things then improved immediately and just got better and better
My story is so similar to yours SBB. I was devastated after laying down more money than I could afford, at the time, on off-the-shelf HBS solutions. The product I made was awful, I thought there has to be a better way. There was. Hooray for the learned and the nerds who share their knowledge so generously on forums such as this! My honour roll would include PrairiePiss, Dad300, Rad, Googe and Yummyrum.

What made the difference for me/ tips?
A power controller to properly manage vapour flow rates.
Stripping runs, make your spirit runs from a purer concentrated base.
Make cuts, lots of them!
Patience, nothing good is worth rushing! Be like the old bull!
They are not mistakes, they are learning opportunities, learn and move on.
When it all goes to shit you can always put it all back in the boiler to make a neutral.
Don’t drink/ be drunk when you are blending.
If in doubt, chuck it out
Every run is different
Things can go from zero to shitty in no time flat with an unattended still
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

kimbodious wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:44 am My story is so similar to yours SBB.
Yes we both started out at around the same time I think , and have been around all of the same forums.
kimbodious wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:44 am I thought there has to be a better way.
I was going to type that exact thing earlier but didn't .....know where your coming from there.
kimbodious wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:44 am
What made the difference for me/ tips?
A power controller to properly manage vapour flow rates.
Stripping runs, make your spirit runs from a purer concentrated base.
Make cuts, lots of them!
Patience, nothing good is worth rushing! Be like the old bull!
They are not mistakes, they are learning opportunities, learn and move on.
When it all goes to shit you can always put it all back in the boiler to make a neutral.
Don’t drink/ be drunk when you are blending.
If in doubt, chuck it out
Every run is different
Things can go from zero to shitty in no time flat with an unattended still
Couldnt agree more :thumbup:
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Twisted Brick »

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:38 pm
how many spirit runs (not counting stripping) did it take the average member on this forum until they had a successful run that they enjoyed and would be proud to share with other?
Pot still: One. Yes, the sugar washes all polished up good enough to share with close friends, but on my first all-grain bourbon, I applied everything I had learned from my reading and hit it out of the park.
I'd also like to hear the #1 bit of advice that helped you get over that hump.
Reflux still: All strikes. The two twice-distilled all-grain 'neutrals' I've made are 'mixable', but I wouldn't share them neat. Luckily, I have identified my problem(s), all from general CCVM advice offered here. My first effort was run blind (no sightglass) and refluxed with ss scrubbies in a 36" x 3" column. Really rough tasting. Second run I increased the packed length to 55" and added a sightglass, which made balancing power and takeoff a lot easier (I think). Much cleaner product, but still a long way to go to rival Tito's. I learned (here on HD) right after that run that there's a marked performance improvement between scrubbies that have been massaged and stretched out like a Mustang Ranch favorite and scrubbies that have all of their perfectly round curls still intact.

Not quite one single piece of advice, but along with slowing the reflux run down, each of the above items represent holes in my knowledge checklist that I can check off for next time.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Twisted Brick wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:57 am

scrubbies that have been massaged and stretched out like a Mustang Ranch favorite and scrubbies that have all of their perfectly round curls still intact.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by cranky »

My very first run was a failed blackberry wine on a small stove top pot still and I think it went well. Kiwis guide to cuts was key there.

My first reflux also went extremely well but by then I had learned cuts and blending which was key.

It's very hard to narrow failures down to any one thing. Even though My first runs were successes I have had failures. A lot of the time time sorts those out. My first apple brandy was OK but my second (or was it 3rd :think: ) was hit out of the park and I have never duplicated that. After that I had 2 seasons of apple brandy I considered a failure until it aged for nearly 2.5 years.

Yeast is a big factor too, learning what yeast I prefer made a big difference in the overall product.
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Re: How long before first success?

Post by HDNB »

i didn't clean my build properly and 6 runs later i finally realized why...cleaned it and things improved dramatically from there

i do have some UJ that is 5 years old now and is not really any better. AG has spoiled me for a quality beverage, but you can't compare new make to your favorite 18 yr old...until it's 18 years old.

quality cuts make all the difference, and barrel aging is more than half the flavour of a finished spirit (unless you are looking for neutral.)
I finally quit drinking for good.

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Re: How long before first success?

Post by Bushman »

What I called success when I began would not be considered success today. But doing my first run and producing alcohol has to be measured as a success. Quality came later and is measured in small increments of improvement.
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