My first ferment...I think it's stuck!

[preachere]

Hey all. New here and have some questions. I started a simple sugar wash back on Nov. 15 and followed all the instructions to the T. I split the wash after simmering for 30 minutes into three 10 gallon containers. Each container has an airlock and aquarium heater. I pitched the recommend amount of DADY's and DAP AFTER I leveled off the Ph at 5.2/5.3/and 5.3 in each container. I got the SG up to 1.075/1.080/and 1.080 in each container as well. Temp was around 80-90 degrees F. Turns out my containers are NOT airtight so I never, not once, got a single bubble out of any of the 3 airlocks, but the basement smelled wonderfully of fermenting wash.

After a week the fermenting smell went away. I've been checking the SG every two days or so and what I have now is one container (8 gallons) at 1.050 SG, a second container (9 gallons) at 1.040, and a third container (8 gallons) at 1.050. I added a couple gallons of distilled water to each container because I read that if there is too much sugar that the yeast will not have enough water to properly function. Each container now has ferment heat wrap on it, is plenty warm, but my SG has not moved in over a week and I am at my wits end as to what to do. I'm going on a month now and if it's not progressing and I don't do something it will never be ready to distill. I don't want to just pitch more yeast in as that might not fix anything. I believe it would be pointless to check the Ph because it would have dropped naturally with what fermentation has already been done and I'm not sure if raising it again would do anything.

My initial recipe called for 20 pounds of sugar and 2 32 ounce bottles of Karo Light Corn Syrup. After cooking that divide it up into three containers and add distilled water to get to 6 gallons each. I then cooked up another 10 pounds of sugar and added to each container to get the SG up to as close to 1.090 as I could. I stopped at 1.075/1.080/and 1.080 as I didn't want to push it. As stated above, I added a couple gallons of distilled water to each container after a week and a half and I'm not sure that the SG changed over the course of this time because I watered it down, or if the yeast is actually doing it's job and converting sugars to alcohol. Sorry for the long-winded post, but I figure the more information you all had as to what was done the better you would understand where I'm at, how I may have arrived here, and how to proceed to final fermentation. Thanks for all your help in advance.

Regards, Eric

[StillerBoy]

My initial recipe called for 20 pounds of sugar and 2 32 ounce bottles of Karo Light Corn Syrup. After cooking that divide it up into three containers and add distilled water to get to 6 gallons each. I then cooked up another 10 pounds of sugar and added to each container to get the SG up to as close to 1.090 as I could.

Where did you get the recipe for your sugar wash.. and using distilled water ? ? ? a link to the recipe would be good..

Mars

[zed255]

Hmmm, sugar, water (distilled at that), DAP, DADY and a high-ish OG. Doesn't sound like a recipe for success, nor one you likely got here.

Take a peek at out T&T recipe section and see what makes for a more successful sugar wash. Shady's Sugar Shine seems to be the current darling, though TeddySads Fast Fermenting Vodka, Deathwish's Wheat Germ, Birdwatcher's Tomato Paste Wash and Googe's Goo Kale Wash among others are popular too. My personal recipe is a bastard child using elements from a few different recipes, but has yet to flop on me.

DAP is helpful but yeast need more than that in a sugar wash and using distilled water crippled things further as there is no dissolved mineral content (calcium and magnesium are common in municipal and well water and beneficial to yeast).

Where did this 'recipe' come from?

[MartinCash]

I would say yes, it is stuck, probably from a combination of not enough nutrients for the yeast and probably a pH crash from not enough buffering in distilled water.

Sounds like a pretty poor recipe. As suggested already, head over to Tried and True and pick any of the ones in there. I can personally recommend Shady's Sugar Shine, Deathwish Wheat Germ and Rad's All Bran as making good neutral.

[8Ball]

1.080 down to 1.040, I’ll bet your final SG reading isn’t corrected for alcohol present. Go ahead and run it it is done. You are probably at FG 1.012 & 8.5% abv.

[zed255]

8Ball, I don't see where the method of measuring the SG was mentioned, but I'd think a hydrometer could likely be assumed. I have never seen mention of correcting a hydrometer for the presence of alcohol. A refractometer is a different story and needs an accurate OG to calculate the FG, but a hydrometer isn't skewed that badly. My experience with sugar washes suggests an SG of at least 1.000 and often more like 0.990 is realistic for a FG reading. I'd say a reading of 1.040 is likely a stuck ferment.

OP, do you still taste sweetness in the wash? If it is still sweet the ferment stuck, if it is dry and maybe a little sour it finished.

[Yummyrum]

OP, do you still taste sweetness in the wash? If it is still sweet the ferment stuck, if it is dry and maybe a little sour it finished.

Yeah that
If it is stuck at 1.050 , it will be super sweet still .

I do agree with above posts that using distilled water is probably not the best option . ... especially in a simple sugar wash . Also a simple sugar wash needs a bit more than just DAP nutrient wise .

Anyway iffn its a dud wash , might as well distill it anyway as you need to run a sacrificial run through your new still and a good time to gain some experience with your still .

[Rrmuf]

This is a great thread to follow to troubleshoot stuck fermentations..... recipe notwithstanding.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =3&t=60502

[8Ball]

8Ball, I don't see where the method of measuring the SG was mentioned, but I'd think a hydrometer could likely be assumed. I have never seen mention of correcting a hydrometer for the presence of alcohol. A refractometer is a different story and needs an accurate OG to calculate the FG, but a hydrometer isn't skewed that badly. My experience with sugar washes suggests an SG of at least 1.000 and often more like 0.990 is realistic for a FG reading. I'd say a reading of 1.040 is likely a stuck ferment.

Yea, my post was based on presence of alcohol when taking a refractometer reading, but you knew that already, didn’t you?

[preachere]

My initial recipe called for 20 pounds of sugar and 2 32 ounce bottles of Karo Light Corn Syrup. After cooking that divide it up into three containers and add distilled water to get to 6 gallons each. I then cooked up another 10 pounds of sugar and added to each container to get the SG up to as close to 1.090 as I could.

Where did you get the recipe for your sugar wash.. and using distilled water ? ? ? a link to the recipe would be good..

Mars

Got it from George on the Barley and Hops channel on Youtube.

[preachere]

Hmmm, sugar, water (distilled at that), DAP, DADY and a high-ish OG. Doesn't sound like a recipe for success, nor one you likely got here.

Take a peek at out T&T recipe section and see what makes for a more successful sugar wash. Shady's Sugar Shine seems to be the current darling, though TeddySads Fast Fermenting Vodka, Deathwish's Wheat Germ, Birdwatcher's Tomato Paste Wash and Googe's Goo Kale Wash among others are popular too. My personal recipe is a bastard child using elements from a few different recipes, but has yet to flop on me.

DAP is helpful but yeast need more than that in a sugar wash and using distilled water crippled things further as there is no dissolved mineral content (calcium and magnesium are common in municipal and well water and beneficial to yeast).

Where did this 'recipe' come from?

I've already picked a new recipe I want to try out from Wineo.

[preachere]

8Ball, I don't see where the method of measuring the SG was mentioned, but I'd think a hydrometer could likely be assumed. I have never seen mention of correcting a hydrometer for the presence of alcohol. A refractometer is a different story and needs an accurate OG to calculate the FG, but a hydrometer isn't skewed that badly. My experience with sugar washes suggests an SG of at least 1.000 and often more like 0.990 is realistic for a FG reading. I'd say a reading of 1.040 is likely a stuck ferment.

OP, do you still taste sweetness in the wash? If it is still sweet the ferment stuck, if it is dry and maybe a little sour it finished.

Excellent information to have! It is dry and a little sour and the container I checked is the one at 1.040 checked by hydrometer. Any reason why it didn't keep going to 1.000 or .990? I was under the impression that if a fermentation stopped sooner that it was stuck?

Regards,
Eric

[preachere]

OP, do you still taste sweetness in the wash? If it is still sweet the ferment stuck, if it is dry and maybe a little sour it finished.

Yeah that
If it is stuck at 1.050 , it will be super sweet still .

I do agree with above posts that using distilled water is probably not the best option . ... especially in a simple sugar wash . Also a simple sugar wash needs a bit more than just DAP nutrient wise .

Anyway iffn its a dud wash , might as well distill it anyway as you need to run a sacrificial run through your new still and a good time to gain some experience with your still .

That was my thought as well- some of this is going to be the sacrificial run anyway, but I was wanting to figure out what went wrong so I don't repeat it in the future.

Regards,
Eric

[acfixer69]

Hmmm, sugar, water (distilled at that), DAP, DADY and a high-ish OG. Doesn't sound like a recipe for success, nor one you likely got here.

Take a peek at out T&T recipe section and see what makes for a more successful sugar wash. Shady's Sugar Shine seems to be the current darling, though TeddySads Fast Fermenting Vodka, Deathwish's Wheat Germ, Birdwatcher's Tomato Paste Wash and Googe's Goo Kale Wash among others are popular too. My personal recipe is a bastard child using elements from a few different recipes, but has yet to flop on me.

DAP is helpful but yeast need more than that in a sugar wash and using distilled water crippled things further as there is no dissolved mineral content (calcium and magnesium are common in municipal and well water and beneficial to yeast).

Where did this 'recipe' come from?

I've already picked a new recipe I want to try out from Wineo.

Although wineos is a prover it has been bettered by some new that will get you more current information have fun.

[MartinCash]

Although wineos is a prover it has been bettered by some new that will get you more current information have fun.

I agree, some of the newer recipes are better and much more foolproof. Honestly something like Rad's All Bran would be my recommendation for a beginner.

If I was you, preachere, I'd try to forget anything you may have learned from George. He's full of manure. He's a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, knowing just enough to think he's knowledgeable, and not enough to be aware of his own incompetence. Some of his videos are downright dangerous, and threads from refugees who spent a lot of money on his recommendation on stuff that just doesn't work get put up every week. Best example PIDs to control boiler elements.

[dukethebeagle120]

My initial recipe called for 20 pounds of sugar and 2 32 ounce bottles of Karo Light Corn Syrup. After cooking that divide it up into three containers and add distilled water to get to 6 gallons each. I then cooked up another 10 pounds of sugar and added to each container to get the SG up to as close to 1.090 as I could.

Where did you get the recipe for your sugar wash.. and using distilled water ? ? ? a link to the recipe would be good..

Mars

Got it from George on the Barley and Hops channel on Youtube.

You shouldn't have said that

[preachere]

Although wineos is a prover it has been bettered by some new that will get you more current information have fun.

Thanks again. I will check out some of the others as well. Can't have too many recipes, right?

Regards,
Eric

[preachere]

If I was you, preachere, I'd try to forget anything you may have learned from George. He's full of manure. He's a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, knowing just enough to think he's knowledgeable, and not enough to be aware of his own incompetence. Some of his videos are downright dangerous, and threads from refugees who spent a lot of money on his recommendation on stuff that just doesn't work get put up every week. Best example PIDs to control boiler elements.

Uh-oh. I built a PID to control my boiler elements based off of what he said. I sure hope it works and I'm not screwed.

Regards,
Eric

[Saltbush Bill]

If you experience the same problems that others who have followed Georges advice have ......then your in for trouble.
He's the last person involved in this hobby that you take advice from.

[preachere]

If you experience the same problems that others who have followed Georges advice have ......then your in for trouble.
He's the last person involved in this hobby that you take advice from.

Fair enough, but I have to say that the basic PID I built is pretty simple and I can't see how it can screw up and not work. I've spent the last 20 minutes or more reading the Shady's Sugar Shine thread and I will be doing that next. In all my reading so far nobody has mentioned clearing the wash before distillation. Is this another myth I should now steer clear of? Also, how important is it to have airtight containers for fermentation? I've seen people use garbage cans (new of course), 55 gallon drums, all the way down to ordinary 5 gallon buckets.

Regards,
Eric

[zed255]

My $0.02. The PID is for maintaining a particular process variable, in the case of the distiller it is often used to *try* and control temperature somewhere in the still. Unfortunately distilling is a moving target, temperature wise, and will result in a lot of manual adjustments on a piece of automation kit being used for a process it is not suited to. If the PID has a manual mode allowing you to control the power to the element then I suggest running it that way, otherwise switch to some kind of power controller. You will have fits running a still with a PID in temperature control mode.

Clearing is performed by some and not by others. I let a wash settle for a while on its own but don't deliberately clear it. So long as nothing is going into the still that could scorch, like heavy sludge or significant amounts of grain, you are fine without any real clearing.

Airtight fermentation containers are not really required. I like some kind of lid just to not invite dust and bugs into my wash, but a trashcan is fine. You are not making a beer or wine that will sit in bottles for months or years, so you can relax compared to a vintner or brewer.

[Saltbush Bill]

You wont need to clear SSS......just let it sit a couple of days after fermentation is complete so that it has time to settle a little.
Its only important to keep washes air tight if you intend leaving them for weeks after fermentation has completed before distilling them. If you intend to distill very soon "within days" after fermentation is complete its not necessary.
George has a weird theory that you can separate off the different components of a wash by setting a PID to different temps to control boiler temp. You CAN NOT do that. Reading the following link may help with your understanding of that. http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html

Edit: posted same time as Zed.

[still_stirrin]

Fair enough, but I have to say that the basic PID I built is pretty simple and I can't see how it can screw up and not work.

PiDs are excellent tools for mashing and fermentation, when you desire temperature control. But, for distillation you need heat input control, not temperature control. Heat input is "power", not temperature. A wash will boil at the saturation point for the mixture, not at any one constituent's boiling point. As a result, the "boiling point" of the mixture is always changing as the more volatile constituents are liberated. This is a fundamental principle (physics) of distillation. The PiD uses a temperature probe to measure when the vapor or liquid reaches a "set temperature" and then the controller reduces heat (power) input to zero, thereby maintaining a temperature point. Distillation requires energy to be input into the boiler constantly to raise the state of the saturated mixture from liquid to vapor. More heat input (not temperature) results in more vapor produced. The vapor and liquid will be at the same temperature, that is, at the saturation temperature of the mixture.

Now, if the PiD has a manual mode, where you can set a percentage of total power (between 0 - 100), then you can dial the setting for that power input. It will measure the temperature of the liquid or vapor in which the probe is placed, but it does not control the temperature. The power is controlled by the manual setting. Simple, for those with a PiD controller. But, you don't need a PiD to do this type of control. A simple potentiometer will regulate the SSR equally fine.

In all my reading so far nobody has mentioned clearing the wash before distillation. Is this another myth I should now steer clear of?

By "clearing", are you referring to carbon filtering or perhaps the addition of fining agents? If so, this answer depends partially on your distillation system including the method of heating the boiler. If direct fired (propane burner), then you probably don't have to clear the wash as thoroughly as you would with an internal electric heating element. The wash could still scorch if there is a lot of solids, or floating particles as these will rest on the bottom (in the case of direct firing) or the element. The critical time for a uncleared wash to scorch is during initial heat up before agitation stirs the particulate away from the hot surfaces. Once boiling, convective forces will keep the particles moving.

Also, what the boiler charge is can dictate how clear it needs to be too. A bourbon or rye recipe that was fermented on the grain will have a lot more particulate in suspension that a sugar wash. However, any ferment will flocculate when fully attenuated, that is, the beer will naturally clear itself to an acceptable degree with time. Again, it depends a little on what the beer is as to how long this will take. Also, some yeast strains are more flocculant than others, ie - ale yeasts tend to settle quickly after fermentation is complete, while a wine yeast or champagne yeast will take longer to clear.

Also, how important is it to have airtight containers for fermentation? I've seen people use garbage cans (new of course), 55 gallon drums, all the way down to ordinary 5 gallon buckets.

It depends on your processes, the recipe, and timing.

Some recipes will sit in the fermenter a long time, wine for example. Sanitation and closed fermentation is more important under these circumstances. If you ferment in a "dirty environment", the closed fermentation would seem appropriate. Wild spores and bacteria can get into an open fermenter and "spoil the soup".

Open fermentation is more appropriate for environments that are controlled, ie - inside a building with clean air systems. Open fermentation is also a good choice if the beer won't set in the fermentation area long after attenuation.

So, some brewers prefer closed fermentation (me, for example) and some like the simplicity of open fermentation. It depends on the equipment (plastic tubs, glass carboys, or stainless conical fermenters), what you're making (wine, all grain, on-the-grain, or sugar washes), and when you can get to run it after fermentation. Hence, a variety of answers...all right.

I've brewed beer for over 25 years and distilled for the last 8+ years. I have equipment for making (drinking) beer, so my processes align with those tools and my experience. Not all hobby distillers fit that description, so you get a lot of perspectives.
ss

[StillerBoy]

Uh-oh. I built a PID to control my boiler elements based off of what he said. I sure hope it works and I'm not screwed.

You sure have on a PID.. and you have been very well spoonfeed..

But it's time you did some research on your own, and maybe start with this one, from another newbie on his experience with a PID..
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 85&t=80869

Mars

[preachere]

Uh-oh. I built a PID to control my boiler elements based off of what he said. I sure hope it works and I'm not screwed.

You sure have on a PID.. and you have been very well spoonfeed..

But it's time you did some research on your own, and maybe start with this one, from another newbie on his experience with a PID..
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 85&t=80869

Mars

Mars- I will definitely read that thread later. As for being spoonfed, you assume too much. Yes, I'm new to distilling. It's something I've always wanted to do and had the money to get set up, at least as far as getting what I believed I needed based off of research I had done. My knowledge is growing and so I've picked up different bits and pieces since I started. I bought the majority of my set up back around May and have just now gotten around to making my first wash due to various circumstances. I have done research on my own. Granted, it may not have been as in-depth as what others have done, but I felt sufficiently knowledgeable to get started, and for that I have George to thank. Is he an idiot? I don't know enough to say at this point, whereas it seems to be the consensus here. Have I made mistakes by following his advice? Sure have it would seem but nothing too serious at this point. I don't worship the man and am more than willing to humble myself and ask for help from others more wise than I, which is how I came to be here in the first place.

Having said all that, how can I go about using the PID to accomplish what I need apart from setting the temperature, as it won't do what I need if I approach distillation with that being my primary method (which is what I was led to believe when I made it). Do I manually set the power output and then keep checking the temp, or manually set the power output and let it do whatever it's going to do and reach whatever temperature it's going to reach based off of that? If the tower produces too much, too fast I then lower the power output and regulate the elements that way?

Thanks for bearing with me, I hope to get past the ackwardness of my new endeavor as soon as possible. I will never become the wisened old distiller as this is just a hobby I have begun, but I still want to do it to the best of my ability and enjoy the best possible product I can produce. The times I have enjoyed others homemade shine I was left with very favorable impressions, good times, and zero hangovers the next morning and would love to be able to create that myself and for friends and family.

I appreciate your help as well as that of Stiller Boy, Still Stirrin, Saltbush Bill, and Zed255, as well as all those who responded previously in this thread.

Regards,
Eric

Still Stirrin- Based off your comments I would think that I could easily convert my PID and install a potentiometer instead. I will try doing it first just as a PID and if that is too much of a pain, then perhaps convert to the other. And yes, I did mean clearing with a fining agent. I know that sugar washes really don't have much that can scorch like grain washes, etc. but just wanted to be sure. All of the dead yeast has settled so I am good to go then. Thank you also for your thoughts on open vs. airtight fermentation containers- that was my thought as well. Kinda like the idea of being able to see the airlocks going but have found out there are other ways to figure out if the fermentation is done. Kudos again to all the help here.

Saltbush Bill and Zed- Thank you both for your thoughts on the matters you commented on as well.

[Saltbush Bill]

and you have been very well spoonfeed..

Mars if you dont want to answer questions stay right out of the thread.
Bout had enough of your arrogant way with newbs.
There are plenty of other members more than happy to answer and help out .

[StillerBoy]

Bout had enough of your arrogant way with newbs.

So what are you going to about it.. exercise you green power...

There's noting arrogant about stating facts, not like some who quote generation old methods..

Mars

[MartinCash]

Hey preachere,

Don't be discouraged by some of the answers, you have what you have at this point, and if it doesn't work for you, well, a lot of us are on a constant upgrade path anyway.

Please read up on some of those PID threads to get an idea why they're not the best tool for the job. Besides that, they also add an extra layer of unnecessary complication. A power controller is all you need, and will be simpler to run and produce better results. If your PID has a manual mode, you're good to go.

However, I have to say almost invariably what I see from PID users is that the distillation proceeds in spurts as the PID attempts to stabilise temperature. This is the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish, which is a steady, start-to-end distillation that enables you to get the best separation of heads and tails from the hearts.

I would argue that you need not actually pay attention to temperature at all when you're starting out, and you learn more from using your senses. If you have a thermometer, then by all means use it to learn what the still does at different temperatures, but don't let the thermometer determine how you operate your still, at least until you get to know it.

One thing that will also help when starting out to make neutral is to strip a few washes together and do a spirit run on the combined low wines. You get a bit more bang from your buck, and a slightly cleaner product.

[zed255]

Uh-oh. I built a PID to control my boiler elements based off of what he said. I sure hope it works and I'm not screwed.

Having said all that, how can I go about using the PID to accomplish what I need apart from setting the temperature, as it won't do what I need if I approach distillation with that being my primary method (which is what I was led to believe when I made it). Do I manually set the power output and then keep checking the temp, or manually set the power output and let it do whatever it's going to do and reach whatever temperature it's going to reach based off of that? If the tower produces too much, too fast I then lower the power output and regulate the elements that way?

Thanks for bearing with me, I hope to get past the ackwardness of my new endeavor as soon as possible. I will never become the wisened old distiller as this is just a hobby I have begun, but I still want to do it to the best of my ability and enjoy the best possible product I can produce. The times I have enjoyed others homemade shine I was left with very favorable impressions, good times, and zero hangovers the next morning and would love to be able to create that myself and for friends and family.

I appreciate your help as well as that of Stiller Boy, Still Stirrin, Saltbush Bill, and Zed255, as well as all those who responded previously in this thread.

Regards,
Eric

Still Stirrin- Based off your comments I would think that I could easily convert my PID and install a potentiometer instead. I will try doing it first just as a PID and if that is too much of a pain, then perhaps convert to the other.

The only way your PID will serve you is if it has a manual mode to control the power to the element. Sorry to say that George from the Barley and Hops channel had a lot of people chasing their tails, particularly with the use of PIDs. By all means, give it a go, but you will be making small, frequent, and manual adjustments to the set point. Even then, the still output will lurch around like a drunken sailor. A power controller is set a few times through the run too, but it is to control production rate and will be very intuitive after a run or three.

Please share your experience here if you try using it as a PID. Worst case it might be useful for mashing or fermentation.

[zed255]

Hey preachere,

Don't be discouraged by some of the answers, you have what you have at this point, and if it doesn't work for you, well, a lot of us are on a constant upgrade path anyway.

Please read up on some of those PID threads to get an idea why they're not the best tool for the job. Besides that, they also add an extra layer of unnecessary complication. A power controller is all you need, and will be simpler to run and produce better results. If your PID has a manual mode, you're good to go.

However, I have to say almost invariably what I see from PID users is that the distillation proceeds in spurts as the PID attempts to stabilise temperature. This is the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish, which is a steady, start-to-end distillation that enables you to get the best separation of heads and tails from the hearts.

I would argue that you need not actually pay attention to temperature at all when you're starting out, and you learn more from using your senses. If you have a thermometer, then by all means use it to learn what the still does at different temperatures, but don't let the thermometer determine how you operate your still, at least until you get to know it.

One thing that will also help when starting out to make neutral is to strip a few washes together and do a spirit run on the combined low wines. You get a bit more bang from your buck, and a slightly cleaner product.

Well put Martin, I agree.