Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

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Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

So I kinda forgot that in South Africa we're not allowed to make homebrew(or buy, move, distribute or touch anything involving alcohol actually) during the lockdown. So I started planning my next run.
Money has been tight with getting retrenched and opening a new restaurant and all, but lo and behold when a door closes a window opens. In my case this window takes the form of potato peels!

At the restaurant we peel, cut and deep fry about 100-200kg of potatoes a week and all the potato peels(with the rest of the kitchen waste) gets collected by a nearby pig farmer. I looked at these taters and thought "spoiled pigs, there's some good starch there". Waste not want not and the best price is "free". So I start reading, HD of course. Lots info on AGs, brewing, some info on potatoes, some on malting... not much on peels though.

So malt is unavailable (lock down, oh well nevermind), but I live in the middle of grain farm country. North of the karoo(which is most sheep-farm area IIRC) along the Orange river, it's all grain farms. Can't find barley, buy mielies (maize/corn) at ZAR4,5/kg (vs sugar at ZAR14/kg), find barley, swear at myself for being hasty, proceed to malt the corn.

So about 9 days ago I bought 50kgs, 1 bag of mielies. Figured I can get 10+kgs of peels a day, I've got 3 250l fermenters that I been itching to get wet, plenty of buckets and assorted small fermenters. Like an idiot, I decide to start my experiment with the whole bag :oops: dump bag in bath, fill bath with water, climb on phone and get back to reading HD.

Realized my mistake too late, bag is bursting at the seams. Quickly move about 1/4 of bag into buckets and back to the soak.

9-10hrs soak(I overslept), next morning drain
air rest for 5-6hrs
Soak 8-9 hrs off to work
Air rest overnight
Starting to chit.
Next morning next mistake.

So I don't have anywhere to put all these grains, a hell of a lot more than I thought it would be. Take some bags that the stuff comes in. We call them "streep sakke" but it's really some type of woven plastic bag, that grains usually come in. Lay them flat on the bedroom floor (very supportive SO) spread the grains 10-20cm deep (not enough space), wet with spray from a 2l PET bottle with holes punched in the lid. Turn, wet, spread 3 times a day for 5 days. On day 3 I got hold of an old bed sheet (from the very supportive SO) and covered them all to keep more moisture in.

It's not looking good. Uneven sprouting, 3-4 tiny patches of white mold on the broken/dead grains. The floor underneath is a moist sticky something, top grains feel dry. I'd guess 75% germination, between 7cm and 2cm acrospires. The smell is... interesting, sort of between wet, corn, earthy, green, brown, type of smell. Worried it's going moldy or just stalled or maybe even dead. I've started drying a smallish batch in the sun to test if there's any enzyme activity at all.

I'll be getting iodine in 2 days time. I'll make a mash with 500g of the malt and do a starch test. Then repeat small batches (500g - 1kg) with varying ratios of (pre-gelatenized) peels and malt to see if this is going to work. Worst case scenario I've got 50kg of semi modified grains for a batch of neutrals.

Tl;dr:
Free potato peels, need malt, was stupid, tried malting 50kgs of maize, worried about the grains. Will attempt a salvage op.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by RC Al »

Supportive SO is an understatement there mate

Skip the potatoes, do the corn, eat the pigs
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Thanks, she really has my back, well most of the time anyway :relaxed:
As for the corn :think: yeah, probably the best advice to be sure, but everyone just does the corn :roll: Where's the fun in that? :mrgreen:
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by The Baker »

Hi Dozingdruid,

I like the idea of the potato peels.
I have an idea that it takes a lot of potato to produce spirit but you HAVE a lot. And they are free.
I am sure there is information on vodka from potatoes, in this forum and on the web, and they probably don't need malt!
I'll look it up later just for fun.

I also like the malting but two good ideas at the same time is a bit much.
As you found.
I would LIKE to malt, especially, wheat because my daughter's husband produces it by the truck load.

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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

I hear you Geoff. I read somewhere that Potatoes are about 10-18% starch I think, compared to wheat in the high 60s. And I'm using peels, which are probably more fiber and such.
As I understand it, potatoes have an extremely low diastatic power, almost non existant, if you find otherwise let me know please.
I found this
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 34&t=55381
After I started my debacle:lol: might be a nice idea to try if you struggle with the space. According to my research though, wheat needs a shorter soak so maybe compensate there or try testing smaller batches first, unlike me :mrgreen: I'm notorious for biting of more than I can chew. :oops:

I actually just chucked out about 100kgs of peels, maybe 15-20kgs that I tested gelatinizing first. Think they were going bad, but it was a good test for the gelatinizing process I'm planning on using.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by StillerBoy »

As an alternate, make a potato base neutral with the peels..

Boil the peels in water for about 5 min or so, making sure the have been washed before peels them.. and use the potato water to make sugar wash with.. makes a very nice neutral..

I've never done it with peels only, but mainly peeled potatoes.. the ratio for the potato water I use is 1 lb peeled potatoes for 1.25L of water, diced into small 3/4" pieces, then boiled for 10 min..

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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by The Baker »

Just thinking...
Which often doesn't lead to anything worthwhile...

Suppose you boiled the peels for quite a while.
In other words you 'REDUCE' this potato soup.
(Which you maybe start off with fairly minimal water.... You could even use this potato water to boil the NEXT batch of peels?)
Driving water off as steam.
So hopefully any goodies (starches) are concentrated.
You have effectively got potato with a (much) higher starch content, yes?

Well you have got lots of the stuff anyway, no loss to try.
And it would be hot; just let it cool enough and away you go with the fermentation process,
saves cost and effort heating your ferment.
And you could try it with some fresh potato peel added to the cooled liquor (no not liquor as in alcoholic beverage) to see if there is natural yeast on the skins to start it off.
If it worked it would be free and should be suited, coming off the same 'fruit'.

Bread bakers in the time of my apprenticeship baker's grandfather used to make their own 'spon'-(taneous)
yeast with cooked (I think) potato. Left it to start fermenting by itself, don't know the exact recipe.
That could have been a hundred and fifty years or more ago when they couldn't just buy some dried yeast.

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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Well I did an experiment before I got my malt going, with roughly 10lt bucket of peels in a pressure cooker with 1l of water. (I'll get more accurate measurements next round :lol:) cooked until the pot was letting off steam for about 10 minutes and mashed it all up with a hand masher, it filled about 7l of the 10l bucket. Did another batch and filled 2 buckets full. Figured once I get my malt I can just bring this up to malting temp add the malt and see if it thins out.

I ran into problems with the malt acquisition and I was worried the potatoes peel mush would go sour before I got the malt, so I ended up chucking it. Damn near broke my wrist when I tried to fling it out the bucket :lol: it all turned into one solid block of starchy gel that sucked onto the inside of the bucket.

So now if research serves me right, that starchy gel should've turned into liquid sugariness if I added the malt, leaving behind the fibery peels.

So the badly-executed malt is busy drying now and I got a smallish batch, 2kg+-, completely dry with hairdryers and fans (thank you to the understanding SO who actually developed the quick drying technique when we did the raw tobacco thing). My iodine is coming in today. Maybe after work or tomorrow, I'll be testing the malt to get an idea of its diastatic power and such. Meanwhile potato peels are being collected. If this all works out I'll do a write up in recipe development so the next guy with a $#!tton of potato peels can have a go at it too :mrgreen: I'll leave out the malting fiasco though :oops: enough info on malting your own grain around.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Ok. So bit of an update with the malting side...
I took a tiny amount (200g) of my malted maize, with 400ml water in a double boiler setup to control the temp better and slowly, ever so slowly raised the temp to 70°C wrapped it all up in a blanket with extra hot water (also at +-72°C) to help maintain the temp over night. And left it for 24 hours. Got back to it tonight and had a look. Some brown liquid on top and a bunch of grain mush on the bottom.

So now I need to know if everything is converting right... strained it all though a cloth, squeezed and shoved it into a fridge to settle. Went back to playing with my potato peels whilst it cooled.

Now I'm sitting with a jug of separated liquids
The separated liquids.
The separated liquids.
Brown on top tests negative for starch, going to test the sludge on the bottom after it separates out some more. Btw hydrometer reads 1,088 after temp correction, so 11% if it would've fermented to 1,000.

Now my question is: why the sludge on the bottom if I filtered through a cloth? Is it some of the starches? Did my malt only get partial conversion? What's the more likely culprit, failed malt or bad mashing protocols? Or is some sludge normal in an ag mash?
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by still_stirrin »

Dozingdruid wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:46 pmNow my question is: why the sludge on the bottom if I filtered through a cloth?
Simple.....the weave on your filter is too big.

That “stuff” was in suspension but the cold break caused it to coagulate and settle. It’s some pretty fine stuff in there, much finer than ground kernals. Some have noted a “cloud” in their spirits after cutting and chilling. Same thing...coagulated molecules stuck together. Oils from the cereal grains, especially corn, are the primary source.

The settlement in your jug is just crud that made it through your filter.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:59 pm The settlement in your jug is just crud that made it through your filter.
+1 :thumbup: SS has nailed it.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Dozingdruid wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:41 amLay them flat on the bedroom floor (very supportive SO) spread the grains 10-20cm deep (not enough space), wet with spray from a 2l PET bottle with holes punched in the lid. Turn, wet, spread 3 times a day for 5 days. On day 3 I got hold of an old bed sheet (from the very supportive SO) and covered them all to keep more moisture in.

It's not looking good. Uneven sprouting, 3-4 tiny patches of white mold on the broken/dead grains. The floor underneath is a moist sticky something, top grains feel dry. I'd guess 75% germination, between 7cm and 2cm acrospires. The smell is... interesting, sort of between wet, corn, earthy, green, brown, type of smell.
I like your style, Druid, I'll be watching this show!

You have enzymes in your malt, time to see how well it works with the taters.
I would start trying to find out what percentage of your corn malt you need to use to convert a given amount of peels.

I'd figure 12% starch for white potatoes, less if it's all peels.

Good thing the skins are free, it's gonna take a lot of 'em!
It'll be challenging to get a high OG, so be prepared to just do more stripping runs of a lower abv ferment.

Good luck, God's speed!
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

I'm encouraged, thanks everyone :thumbup:
still_stirrin wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:59 pm That “stuff” was in suspension but the cold break caused it to coagulate and settle. It’s some pretty fine stuff in there, much finer than ground kernals. Some have noted a “cloud” in their spirits after cutting and chilling. Same thing...coagulated molecules stuck together. Oils from the cereal grains, especially corn, are the primary source.

The settlement in your jug is just crud that made it through your filter.
ss
So just oils and the like :think: so shouldn't influence my ferment much?
MichiganCornhusker wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:14 pm You have enzymes in your malt, time to see how well it works with the taters.
I would start trying to find out what percentage of your corn malt you need to use to convert a given amount of peels.
That's the next plan! Gonna start with an arbitrary figure and go from there. Maybe start at 1:1, mash, SG read, ferment, OG read, rack off, dump in boiler. Repeat until I got enough for a strip. I got about a 100l boiler with a 25ltr minimum charge IIRC, gonna try about 20-25l batches, so might only be able to pull off the top 15l with the amount of sludge this potato makes. Keep repeating with increasing amounts of potato peels until I notice any appreciable change in the wash. Might try a 1:1 and a 1:10 parallel ferment to see the difference easier and eliminate variables.
MichiganCornhusker wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:14 pm I'd figure 12% starch for white potatoes, less if it's all peels.

Good thing the skins are free, it's gonna take a lot of 'em!
It'll be challenging to get high OG, so be prepared to just do more stripping runs of a lower abv ferment.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, at the moment I get about 5-10kg of skins. I'll be happy with an ABV of 5-10% and with the size of my boiler I don't mind the stripping runs.

Any suggestions for potato to water ratio?
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Another thing that I thought about this morning:
I find my corn malt develops plenty of enzymes by the time acrospires are only 2cm long. I can see several advantages to keeping your malting time to a minimum in your situation.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

MichiganCornhusker wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:34 am Another thing that I thought about this morning:
I find my corn malt develops plenty of enzymes by the time acrospires are only 2cm long. I can see several advantages to keeping your malting time to a minimum in your situation.
Only 2cm? Most guys i read here say at least 2 inches that's why I let mine go so long, waiting for the non-sprouters to catch up.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Well, seems like the world is against me the last couple of days. Got a batch of potatoes nicely mashed up and boiling, closed them up in a bucket wrapped them in a blanket and waited overnight for them to cool to mashing temps. 8)

One thing after another I just can't get to it, gets late check the temp, just under 50°C... too cold... ok I'll warm it up and add the malt... after I get the rest of the malt to drying. Run out of time, forget the rest of the wet malt outside rush to work, get back dead tired pass out as soon as I get home. Que angry rain gods, unexpected shower in the middle of the night soaks the malt that was sort of starting to dry.

But all hope is not lost, I've got a friend who lent me a heater fan, another who lent me an oil heater and I've got extra fans, so I'll just dry it inside on the racks that I'm going to build, nice thin layer inside with hot air and fans, rest spread outside in the blazing sun. Should be dry by Saturday morning? Right? Right...?

See, thing is, I've got someone who is willing to let me use his hammer mill on Saterdag morning. Which is great, cause I don't have anything to grind my malt and doing 50+kgs by hand doesn't sound like fun.

Wrong... this morning I get the news that I have to fix the car first, hit a rock and knocked a hole in the sump :sad:. I hate mechanic work. As I'm struggling with the sump its starts raining, it still hasn't stopped raining and the car still isn't fixed :lolno: my malt is sopping wet and in the meantime it looks like a 36hr mash with potatoes isn't a good idea, it started foaming and climbed out the bucket. Blanket is full of mushed potato bits, and the bucket smells like old man farts.

So there's another bucket of potatoes down the drain. Gonna have to cancel my malt crushing appointment, don't want to gum up the nice guys hammer mill. Maybe I can take a rain check for next weekend. Things are not going my way this last half week, I think I need a stiff drink :cry: not that I have any, being so behind with my stilling and the job eating up all my time.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

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Dozingdruid wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:16 amso I'll just dry it inside on the racks that I'm going to build, nice thin layer inside with hot air and fans, rest spread outside in the blazing sun. Should be dry by Saturday morning? Right? Right...?
You'll be surprised just how fast the malt will dry out simply by forcing air through it on trays.
Not just blowing air across the malt, but up through the trays allows me to dry in 24 to 48 hours. After that I dry it in my oven set to 200F overnight.
Works great, doesn't destroy the enzymes, and makes the malt storable for a long time. My last batch was over a year old before I got around to using it.

Hope the pendulum swings back and days start going your way again soon!
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Well here we say "die wiel draai" the wheel turns, which is more about someone getting thier comeuppance, but I guess it means the same thing.

Well gonna take another crack at some of those frames tonight, gonna be a pain without power tools, but we soldier on.

And thank you for your signature btw. Had that song stuck in my head all day now
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

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So finally got to getting. Unfortunately potatoe peels didn't make it into the bill, but I do have 3 garbage bags full of stale buns.
Decided to throw away my discerning approach and just DO. I'm driving myself crazy by not being able to do and just wanted to get something done!

So finally got my malt dry, removed the rootless and tiny stems. Messy, fun work. Couldn't get hold of that hammer mill and decided I didn't want to wait another day so I made a plan: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 83&t=82054
Giant blue 250l drum standing in the living room 1/3 full of corn-malt-mush and a few old burger buns for shits and giggles. Now I just gotta figure out how to add hot enough water to get the temps up to mashing temp :think:
Still is currently out of commission, cut off all the wiring and used it for the restaurant :problem: so the easy large batch corn mashing method is out.
Hot water from the solar geyser comes out at about 70°C which is close, but it's cold and wet outside, gonna need to add extra heat somehow... :think: best idea so far is fill with geyser water equal volumes corn mush and hot water, see how the temps go, scoop off 15l clear off the top into my (biggest) tiny pot, bring to boil, mix in, repeat until the mash hits the 60 odd degree mark (gonna look now what the mashing temps are :lol: keep forgetting) wrap it up in a blanket overnight and take my SG reading and iodine test in the morning. Unfortunately my ph tester seems to be out of order, so gonna have to guess that. And hopefully I'll have something drinkable soon :thumbup:
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by The Baker »

There should be recipes for fermenting bread (and buns) in the forum.
Mostly from a long time ago but if they worked then they will work now.
I think there is something of a Russian tradition using bread too.

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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Setsumi »

Druid, i read your adventures and all i can say there is an easier way. forget the patato peels. get yourself mieliemeel and high temp enzymes, in RSA there is an online distiller shop that sounds like distilling and liquid. for me the best for conversion is food grade meal. i buy itua but if impala is on special it is better. you can buy from small mills but it is more coarse and retain more liquid. then follows Booners casual corn recipy on here. strongs
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Thanks setsumi. I know of the online store you are referring to :problem: I'll check them out in my search for enzymes for sure, although most of thier stuff seems heavily overpriced :think: or maybe everything feels overpriced when you're broke :lolno:

Mielie meal and enzymes is for sure the easiest option, but my whole adventure started with salvaging free starches. If I was going for easy I'd just go the sugar wash with tomato-paste (can get huge tons for dirt cheap that they use for pizza) from (oh damnit I forgot his name :lol: something-bird?) or do the ujssm which works really well, I've done both (3-4 gen ujssm and several tomato-paste) worked wonderfully. And I'd definitely recommend those for anyones first 10+ runs :thumbup: I'll consider the enzymes over malting my own for the next batch, maybe all potatoe+buns and enzymes :think: maybe keep sugar on hand to make a sugar head if the SG comes out too low.

Damnit setsumi! You've got my brain gears rolling full speed again :crazy:
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Bee »

Newb question here - Why do you have to dry the malt? Couldn't you just mix it with a little water and whiz it up in a blender or food processor and then toss it into your mash?
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by StillerBoy »

Bee wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:36 am Newb question here - Why do you have to dry the malt?
Read up the malting process.. as the answer is there..

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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Bee »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malt
The grain is made to germinate by soaking in water and is then halted from germinating further by drying...
Ah! Yeah, I wouldn't bother. Grind it up wet and toss it in the mash.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by StillerBoy »

Bee wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:38 pm Ah! Yeah, I wouldn't bother. Grind it up wet and toss it in the mash.
You still don't get the process.. read more as there's more to the process which you are missing..

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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by RC Al »

The term you need to search on here is green malt
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Bee wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:38 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malt
The grain is made to germinate by soaking in water and is then halted from germinating further by drying...
Ah! Yeah, I wouldn't bother. Grind it up wet and toss it in the mash.
Yeah sure, and it'll work too. Thing is, a quick search for "green malt" will tell you exactly why I didn't do it that way. The stems and roots have a very "green" taste and I've never been a big fan of that fresh mowed lawn flavour.
You gotta get the roots and stems off to avoid that flavour and I sure as hell not gonna cut them all off one by one.
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Bee »

No good way to rub the roots & stems off while they are wet?
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Dozingdruid
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Re: Adventures with potato peels, malting corn and greedy blunders.

Post by Dozingdruid »

Nope, they're on there pretty tight, part of the seed and all. But if you dry them they break off simply by being shaken in a pillow case.
Distilling, gaming, woodworking, welding, electronics... I swear if I get one more hobby I'm going to have to quit my job.
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