First still, first sacrificial run, few teething issues - please help

[Mr Merlin]

So, 2021 and time for something new!

Today was a day of firsts, new still, first stripping run (well a sacrificial one anyway) and a lot of learning taken place! I have already done an acid clean and tested the waters a little so to speak.

I wanted a modular still with the convenience of fitting an electric boiler I already own (2.5 Kw Klarstein). I manage to get the T500 lid to fit (with a little meddling) and an adapter from Ali Express and hey presto!

The system has – 500cm and 300cm pipes, 300cm deflag, 2x bends (one with thermometer) and 500cm condenser. I also went for a parrot – realise its not needed but hey, why not!

During the acid run I noted the boiler was a little more powerful than the 2’ output to handle so I used a bungee cord and chain arrangement to pull the lid against the boiler. I also bought a SCR controller to slow down the vapour but that basically didn’t work (it was broken and only gave 100% output!!). The weight of the column was substantial so I used some bungees on the ceiling to support this slightly.

So…. What went wrong!! I am listing some of my suggested fixes (where I have them) and questions where not.

LOTs of leakage from the boiler lid – this happened mid-cycle so I was slightly panicked and sealed with a proper bodge job of duct tape! Yes I know, toxins and all but this was on the outside so just increased the pressure slightly at the gap (and hey, I tossed all the booze anyway!).
- Solution short term – flour and water seal?? (perhaps I should just go ahead and buy the damn T500 boiler)
- Get a working SCR!!!

I was really confused because output was REAAALY slow given I was going full blast and the abv out was at a constant 80%. It took me a while to realise I had the deflag fully open and was actually refluxing the whole damn run (doh!).
- Solution – don’t be an idiot!!


Finally my parrot was doing some strange things. The output seemed to cycle up and down (leading the alcometer to bob) and the side air inlet valve (just below the condenser) had product coming out. Wasn’t sure if this is normal early on or a design issue. Ultimately I plugged it off and this helped but I realise this is something of a no-no in terms of pressurising the system.
- Any ideas why this happened to me?

Finally I am using copper scrubbies to put some copper in the pathway (cheap and easy to get). However they went black INSTANTLY and left some odd grainy residue (See pictures). Is this normal or should I bite the bullet and get some proper copper mesh instead. Pictures of the colour change and grainy residue below.


Thoughts and support would be greatly welcomed. Thanks.

This is the SCR I used which was totally Useless
So, 2021 and time for something new!

Today was a day of firsts, new still, first stripping run (well a sacrificial one anyway) and a lot of learning taken place! I have already done an acid clean and tested the waters a little so to speak.

I wanted a modular still with the convenience of fitting an electric boiler I already own (2.5 Kw Klarstein). I manage to get the T500 lid to fit (with a little meddling) and an adapter from Ali Express and hey presto!

The system has – 500cm and 300cm pipes, 300cm deflag, 2x bends (one with thermometer) and 500cm condenser. I also went for a parrot – realise its not needed but hey, why not!

During the acid run I noted the boiler was a little more powerful than the 2’ output to handle so I used a bungee cord and chain arrangement to pull the lid against the boiler. I also bought a SCR controller to slow down the vapour but that basically didn’t work (it was broken and only gave 100% output!!). The weight of the column was substantial so I used some bungees on the ceiling to support this slightly.

So…. What went wrong!! I am listing some of my suggested fixes (where I have them) and questions where not.

LOTs of leakage from the boiler lid – this happened mid-cycle so I was slightly panicked and sealed with a proper bodge job of duct tape! Yes I know, toxins and all but this was on the outside so just increased the pressure slightly at the gap (and hey, I tossed all the booze anyway!).
- Solution short term – flour and water seal?? (perhaps I should just go ahead and buy the damn T500 boiler)
- Get a working SCR!!!

I was really confused because output was REAAALY slow given I was going full blast and the abv out was at a constant 80%. It took me a while to realise I had the deflag fully open and was actually refluxing the whole damn run (doh!).
- Solution – don’t be an idiot!!

Finally my parrot was doing some strange things. The output seemed to cycle up and down (leading the alcometer to bob) and the side air inlet valve (just below the condenser) had product coming out. Wasn’t sure if this is normal early on or a design issue. Ultimately I plugged it off and this helped but I realise this is something of a no-no in terms of pressurising the system.
- Any ideas why this happened to me?

Finally I am using copper scrubbies to put some copper in the pathway (cheap and easy to get). However they went black INSTANTLY and left some odd grainy residue (See pictures). Is this normal or should I bite the bullet and get some proper copper mesh instead. Pictures of the colour change and grainy residue below.

Thoughts and support would be greatly welcomed. Thanks.

This is the SCR I used which was totally USELESS!

[Jstroke]

Mr. Merlin,

I guess I'll swing the bat and try and give you some pointers. First things first. STOP. Just STOP. Not being mean, but I would rather not hear about you on the evening news. You need to go back and read. Read all the Cranky, All the required reading, maybe more than once in spots. I would go read threads on controllers and columns and packing and scrubbers. I would make the google HD my favorite button. Go dream up any word combination you can think of and go search out answers. Do not tkae one threads post as the gospel. Go try and find every possible answer about that subject. Often as these wise old guys push the limits, new technology or new methods surface and become preferred. New understandings of what is safe etc. Sometimes a method has changed. Take a look at the date it was posted. Try and find newer posts on the subject that have refinements. What this is going to do is slow you down and allow you to make the right decisions about your rig while you digest the information. Seriously think about the goals, what product you want to make etc. If the price of doing it correctly is a hindrance at the moment, then take the time to save and learn. If you cannot do the actual welding or soldering, then hire someone to do it right. I'm pretty stubborn and have a can-do attitude. But I don't weld. When I need welding done, I pay a guy. In the long run it's cheaper than if I screw sh.. up and have to buy it again.

Now take a breath and get this contraption straightened out before you attempt any more runs. The first thing to realize is that leaks, ANY LEAKS, are going to play absolute havoc with all aspects of the entire system and blowing highly flammable vapor into a confined space is asking for..... words escape me. You can decide how you want to tack this, but either buy the correct boiler that will fit, get a keg and start from scratch. Anything except running the current setup. Get rid of the parrot for now. It's distracting. Make sure you either build or buy the right controller. There are tons of threads about this subject by very knowledgeable people. Make a sandwich and go dig in.

This is not a drag race nor a hobby designed to make booze affordable. This is about how to beat them at their own game. If any member worth their salt added up the cash/time they have invested, they could drink Pappy Van Winkle full time (500.00) per bottle. So slow down and make careful decisions that fit you and your skills. In the long run, the turtle will win the race, spend less money and produce better product.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but we are all members here to help each other maintain a sense of sanity and safety is number #1.
J

[Mr Merlin]

I appreciate your reply I really do. I realise that any reply that comes off as "but..but" is going to seem defensive and as if I am ignoring your advice. That really isn't the case. With that said....

I have read all the posts here on essential reading, all of them and more than once too. I have watched all still it videos by Jessie and a whole bunch of other YouTube and at least 100+ hours more reading besides. I'm not saying by any means this makes me expert, it really doesn't, but I have tried at least to understand the chemistry of it all. Im a graduate scientist by background so follow some of the chemistry and physics of the process too. I'm also plenty experienced in home brewing so have some crossover skills that will help when I go AG.

I do NOT have ANY practical distilling experience. I'm also not particularly hot on soldering/making my own electronics - hence I bought the SCR as it seemed ultimately cheaper/easier/safer at the time.

What I'd like to know a little more is the specifics - obviously there is plenty to cause alarm in my post if you fear ot all might go boom - definitely something I'd like to avoid too. Is this mainly about the leak or am I doing several dangerous things? (I realise plugging the parrot isn't sensible but I babysat the whole run).

Is Flour/water not an effective seal? I'd obviously like to get a boiler to fit the 2" system I have but don't have that capitol right now and would love to find a way to make my system work meanwhile. I managed to get over a litre of 80% from 11L of 10% wash so the extraction wasn't all that bad/lost to the atmosphere. I realise reading the original post I said LOTS of leakage and perhaps that's a little dramatic. Any in my mind is lots but certainly on today's chill weather (2 degrees c) I could see a little steam at times which did not please me. This was small enough mid-run that I managed to patch successfully with just a little Duct tape but I do not plan on repeating that experience longer term for sure.

Again, please don't think I'm ingracioius. I made plenty of cock ups this run but could not have learnt any of this stuff without actually running my set-up. What I really want is suggestions how to not blow myself up/have greater success on my next run as reading more just ain't gonna cut it anymore.

Thanks very much though..

[still_stirrin]

Well, Mr. Merlin, you’re proof that “book smartz” isn’t enough to get you home. And “Jessie & the gang” on Youtube do more to inspire than answer questions. You’re not the first to come here with a “what the fuck” look in their eyes. And, you won’t be the last either.

Several comments you’ve made are concerning, from the safety perspective.

First off, you should not have vapor leaks from the lid of your boiler, even during a water/steam run or a vinegar run, when the heat input is much more intense to produce a rolling boil within the boiler. When you do have vapor escaping, it indicates “blockage” elsewhere in the system. And, with your scrubby packed column, I would suspect that they are packed too tight. You should be able to breath through your column without effort. If you have to blow, even slightly, they’re too tight.

And speaking of scrubbys, the reason that they turned black is due to a chemical reaction with the vapors passing through. You’re the chemically educated guy here....what would cause copper to turn black? Have you considered that the scrubbys might be doing the job you’ve expected them to do? If you soak them for a short while in vinegar, does the copper color come back to life? Give it a try.

I don’t have or need a parrot. But, most often when they start to “bob” up and down, it is usually due to a lack of a pressure or vacuum relief in the liquid line that feeds the parrot. I see your collection cone from the shotgun has a relief tube, but I wonder if it is partially plugged, or even adequate for the production rate you’re pushing through your still.

Flour paste should help seal leaks, but with your fancy purchased still, you should not have leaks. Does the lid to the boiler have a seal? If so, you could try wrapping it with PTFE (plumbers) tape to improve seal durability. If the lid is held in place with clamps, perhaps add more clamps. With the tall column attached to the lid, it is obvious that some stress is placed on the lid, so supplemental support will be needed.

Finally, when your SCR failed, they usually fail “full on”, that is, with 100% power throughput. That usually happens if it has burned out by excessive power consumption, or rather, too big of a load on the SCR circuit. Did you balance the SCR’s rating to the heat element with an acceptable safety margin? We never run electrical circuits at their full power rating simply to protect against power surges. i don’t have much info regarding your SCR controls, but I’d bet they’re fried!

So, even though you’ve read a ton here and watched hours of Youtube videos, you still have some education in front of you before you’ll really be safe. So, be careful, slow down and learn what you don’t know.
ss

[Demy]

Hi Merlin, I will try to give just some advice, nothing more. First of all you have to solve the problem of the loss of the lid, the flour will work well or I recommend you some high thickness Teflon tape, usually expanded Teflon in the shape of a rope, or a seal of paper or cork covered with Teflon tape for plumbing . The rubber bands are not suitable for holding the lid tight either for the lack of strength but above all because they do not hold up in the heat, I recommend using spring clips or snap clamps. I do not use copper scrubber but stainless steel so I cannot evaluate the quality from a distance but it could only be dirt / processing residues. I use a parrot regardless of the product output, so I think this is the problem, a little pressure builds up inside the parrot resulting in "bubbling" and the tool goes up and down. For the controller, what you have should be fine, I don't find anything strange but maybe it could be faulty, make sure you have connected the plug well, these are just suggestions, you need to slowly revise your system.

[PhalanxDistilled]

Hey, hat off to ya for trying to piece it all together from scratch. I took the shortcut and bought a system already made to specifications but keep it up dude! good luck on your project and I'd love to share mash and run notes with you as your venture progresses!!

[howie]

after the vapour leaks are fixed........
BTW that system is almost identical to mine.
the 2" columns and condensers should handle 2.5w easily (mine is 2.4W)
have you tried running with the original pagoda instead of the parrot? (just do a steam run)
using the parrot, the only time i got the alcometer bobbing was when i forgot to remove the little silicone cover on the air inlet.
i've always used copper mesh in mine, do those copper scrubbies compress too much?
the power controller is the same but branded differently (mines in chinese lol)
i assume you have tried it on something like a halogen lamp or something other than the boiler?
yours says it's a 4000w model so it 'should' be ok.

[still_stirrin]

...using the parrot, the only time i got the alcometer bobbing was when i forgot to remove the little silicone cover on the air inlet...

Ah ha! I wondered if that wasn’t the cause. —> “operator error”

[Mr Merlin]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. Plenty of food for thought.

The big take home for me for next time:

- leaks - the purchased system doesn't leak (I.e. the columns from ali-express) but the klarsfein boiler to T500 lid does . Even though the gap is must be under 1mm in diameter I must at all costs Bridge that deficiency. Short term I may try flour and thick Teflon tape. I could bite the bullet and buy a T500 boiler but heard they are not the best and if I buy another boiler, I'd sooner go all in and get a bigger keg boiler. My setup cost me less than the T500 boiler all in! I tried to buy the T500 spare clamps to weld to the outside of of boiler but couldn't find any that in stick that will ship locally.

- Ditch or seriously reconsider the parrot, at least until I can work out if the inlet is sufficient.

- Its OK for scrubbies to get that way! I know copper will discolour and oxidise buy wanst 100% sure that was what I was dealing with. You can easily breath through the tube with then in place so I don't think they were causing a blockage. I was slightly worried they might be an alloy with copper plating - nothing on the packaging to suggest that but I wasn't expecting the unpleasant grit they produced (only at the bottom of the column- too heavy to be pushed far up).

SCR is bust - while I managed to get just a flicker of dimming from a low wattage light bulb (from 100% to 75%) it clearly doesn't work because it still burns brightly all the way down to 0. It's 4k rated so some margin for error, I had considered a 10k one previously- contacting the seller first and if they refund that's what I'll go for (if replacing I'll test it out before my next run!!)

I'll test these out and get a proper seal on before strip 1 of my now gen 1 UJSSM.

Side note - can't help but tinker with a recipe and as a brewer I have plenty of grains on board. Using flaked corn as easier to get hold of. Fancied mixing it up slightly for each generation so thought I'd add a little something different each round
- 500g torrifies oats round 1
- 500g flaked barley round 2
- 500g Crystal rye round 3

Hopefully won't detract from the underlying corn base flavour.

Once again that's all for really useful pointers and advice. This is by far the premier forum for such things - I'm a long time lurker and infrequent poster but it's the no nonsense approach, attention to detail and safety focus that I value. I'm smart enough to realise that whatever I have read, I really know nothing when it comes to the new hobby and I'll try and not let my enthusiasm get the better of my current skill level (I have jumped headlong into things in the past!)

Cheers all!