Apple Corn Whiskey?

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Avalir
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Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

So, I hope I'm posting in the right area and I hope I'm not posting far too prematurely... the idea is an apple whiskey right from the get-go, no additives after distillation.
The idea is to make a simple corn whiskey (I do 80% cracked corn, 20% 2 row malted barley), but replace probably at least half of my water with apple cider.
I'm looking to do this closer to the end of fall when around me, I can scoop up all that manager special cider for 0.50 per gallon.
I got the idea early on in my learning when I stupidly wasted my corn mash distilling with reflux column on, lost everything I wanted and was sad for a couple days. But what I noticed, even after reflux and getting a 94% outcome, it had a subtle tart smell and taste comparable to a granny smith apple (yet, none of the corn smell and taste stuck around?!). It got me, for the first time ever, thinking about if this was why whiskey and apples are seen as compliments--because corn, in spirit, has a lot of appley notes? Plus, everytime someone learns I distill, they start asking about apple pie moonshine, so I think an apple whiskey might be a happy medium.
Just wanted to get feedback as early on as possible in case people had experience to share so I can map my recipe/plan early on. Once again, so far the plan is a simple corn whiskey recipe, replacing minimally half the water with apple cider. Also, if anyone has tried, or makes an apple brandy, do you feel cider would bring enough to the table to make notable apple character presentable in the final spirit, without overpowering the corn element?
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Demy
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Demy »

I manage a small amount of apples every year, even with a slightly packed column and a small reflux (I like it). I don't know the result of your idea, but I can advise you to dehydrate enough peels of apples and add them after distillation together with the wood, this creates aromas without weighing off the distillate, it's just an idea.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by v-child »

I would run (strip and spirit) the whiskey normally and proof it with the cider instead of water. Demy's idea is interesting also. If that apple cider is in glass jugs, it's worth it just for the containers.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by rubberduck71 »

What geography can you get apple cider for $0.50/gal in the fall??? I'm hoping it's near me...
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

I appreciate the replies. I actually really like both those ideas. I have some fancy medium toast french oak cubes for aging too, so I'll need to play around with apple peel chips it sounds like. Then cider to dilute sounds like I'd keep stronger apple notes and may help smooth the distillate, plus now that I think of it would do away with that fruit ferment foam I've heard about (never done a fruit ferment, so forgive me if that's not too accurate).
As far as where I am, in good ol rural eastern NC. Them prices are strictly manager special prices near the end of the season, usually on no-name store brand cider, but I doubt my yeast or still know the difference.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by NormandieStill »

I did an apple brandy as one of my first runs using a simple apple juice wash (pressed apples, yeast, time). Didn't have any foam either in the fermentation, or in the stripping run. I did let it ferment slowly at 20C on US-05 for about 2 1/2 months before distilling it.

If you want to play with apples, why not make the apple brandy separately and blend it later. That'll probably make it easier to control the mix than doing it in the wash, and if you don't like the result of your tests you still have a nice apple brandy!
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by NZChris »

The cuts for apple and corn are different, so you would have to compromise on one or the other if you fermented them together.

Try proofing a sample of corn likker with juice. There is acidity in apple juice that isn't present in water, so you may not like it. Proofing with juice works for some products, but not for others.

If you want to add juice to get to barrel strength, make sure your abv is high enough for the amount you want to add. Product off my pot still is usually so close to my desired barrel strength that it needs little dilution.

What I have done with apple, is ferment juice and double distill, then proof it to 40% with freeze jacked juice to add flavor and sweetness. Aging it on JD chips in a 2/3 full jar. It took four years to mature into something I really like and it keeps getting better.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

NZChris wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:14 pm The cuts for apple and corn are different, so you would have to compromise on one or the other if you fermented them together.
Huh... I never thought about it that way. I may need to ferment and distill separately, then blend.
I wouldnt be apposed to proofing with cider (I like acidity up to the point its indistinguishable from an ulcer), if it weren't for I'm using store brand manager special cider that was almost mediocre at its peak but is now a day away from cannot legally sell for human consumption. Maybe its wishful thinking, but I feel like fermentation is the best way to ignore the poor taste of what I'll be using, so long as no spoilage has begun (I mean, I find cracked corn to be just as viable as flaked maize... I've also taken to eating spent said cracked corn).
Once again, I've never done a fruit ferment, so I may be anticipating results based off non-correlating findings.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

NormandieStill wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:29 pm If you want to play with apples, why not make the apple brandy separately and blend it later. That'll probably make it easier to control the mix than doing it in the wash, and if you don't like the result of your tests you still have a nice apple brandy!
Probably the route I'll need to go. Dont think I'd have the patience to ferment for months for something I'm mostly doing out of curiosity coupled with the once a year pricing that's low enough to play and experiment with for fun. Plus if all else fails, I can experiment with the distillate further... not to get off topic, but one of my gin loving buddy's--I got him interested in the idea of a gourmet apple pie moonshine when I was joking and spitballing. But the idea is to make an apple wine based gin (fun fact: gin was traditionally made from a wine base way way way back when), then pack column with juniper, cinnamon, cloves, and whatever other gin or pie spices I may want to include (I'm not a gin man, so I'll figure herbs/aromatics in due time).
But 0.50 gallon cider is all the reason I need for appley experimentation.
I really appreciate all the replies, I'd hate to have already wasted cheap cider/it sells out/it spoils by the time all these ideas and knowledge got to me.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

I'm liking how the idea has evolved...
So at this point it looks like the plan is blending separately fermented and distilled corn likker and apple brandy, then age with oak and dehydrated apple chips (I'll use a variety of apples; my old lady has like a 5 or 6 apple blend for her pies I like). If I wanna try to be fancy and give into this apple pie moonshine craze, I'm leaning towards a gin-style vapor infusion with probably cinnamon, cloves, ginger, nutmeg, orange zest, and lemon zest.
I'll probably make a post closer to fall for any curious of following this, but in the meantime feel free to throw thoughts/ideas my way. Never hurts to have a game plan when you'll have a limited time window to gather and utilize resources.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by wpkluck »

v-child wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:55 am I would run (strip and spirit) the whiskey normally and proof it with the cider instead of water. Demy's idea is interesting also. If that apple cider is in glass jugs, it's worth it just for the containers.
So this would be a theoretical proofing, right? Adding cider, which will contain some sugar, will throw off the proofing measurement (with a proofing hydrometer, anyway). To get to where you want it, I'd use the online tempering calculator (which shows how much water to add to proof down from X to Y), then add that much cider. Or am I thinking of this incorrectly?

BTW - LOVE the idea of aging with oak and dried apple chips! I hope the dried chips don't pull out too much alcohol (I find raw fruit tends to do that).
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I've used apple cider/juice to mash grains (barley) along with some honey and water shooting for an SG of about 1.070. Made a nice drop both on oak and white and I need to do it again. Careful with the manager special juice because a lot of it has potassium sorbate in it which inhibits yeast reproduction. I like the idea of adding peels but I might do it to low wines instead of final make just because I don't appreciate sweet likker except in a couple instances..

Good luck!
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Avalir
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:47 am Careful with the manager special juice because a lot of it has potassium sorbate in it which inhibits yeast reproduction.
Thanks for the heads up, I wouldn't have even thought about that... once again, forgive my ignorance on fruit, but is that something more or less easily overcome by overpitching (not grossly over, obviously) the yeast? Just rehydrate a couple-few hours with a little food to get a large healthy culture before pitching?
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by NZChris »

Buy one and try it. Adding more and more yeast until it does take off might work, but only experimentation will tell you for sure.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Haha, was waiting for a thread like this over 2 years :clap:
NZChris wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:14 pm The cuts for apple and corn are different, so you would have to compromise on one or the other if you fermented them together.
:thumbup: The words of gold, so:

v-child wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:55 am I would run (strip and spirit) the whiskey normally and proof it with the cider instead of water. Demy's idea is interesting also. If that apple cider is in glass jugs, it's worth it just for the containers.
If I proof it down with cider then very likely me to get a cloudy stuff. It could be cleansed by 4-5 iterations of cold filtration, in my experience. Problems of nothing and apple overpowering, imo.

So, I would work with low wines, guys. By adding either peels (infusing them for a day or two in 20%AbV* low wines) or a glass only of apple cider/juice. Cheap, fast, efficient, lazyass-compatible :ewink:

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:!: * Re. proofing your apple-ish LW down to twaneeths please, read here.

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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by stillanoob »

I have proofed down apple brandy with hard cider. It was very good but somehow I prefer the brandy proofed with water. You might try proofing your whisky with hard cider and see how you like it. As noted above the cuts for apple brandy and whisky are very different. With apple the flavor is in the heads. So I agree with the distill separately and blend.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

You guys are great. Really feeling that sense of community. I really didnt think this topic would get much attention. It's really nice to to hear what brandy people have to say (I usually hang out around whiskey topics). It also wouldn't hurt my feelings if any ginheads reading this might have thoughts on vapor infusing botanicals/spices (I feel like that may be an ambition for next year). If I were to attempt it though, I'm thinking cinnamon, cloves, nutmeg, ginger, orange zest, lemon zest (juniper is my only turnoff from gin--sorry ginheads).
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

stillanoob wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:52 am I have proofed down apple brandy with hard cider. It was very good but somehow I prefer the brandy proofed with water. You might try proofing your whisky with hard cider and see how you like it.
And anyhow, it's pH-lowering. The more you add cider the more your whiskey's finish becomes... acid :econfused:

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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by NZChris »

I can run gin using a basket or a Carter Head, but usually choose not to. Some of the things I've seen sold as gin baskets and Carter Heads are far too small and some are badly designed, in my opinion.

I also do a variety of non gin products in the same mini stills with and without using the baskets. A mini still that can do a 1-2l charge is a fun tool, especially for experimenting with radical products. I had a try at making Hot Cross Bun Gin yesterday :D. It's very nice, but it's not perfect and I'm adding more spice to get it closer to what I want. That was run with everything in the pot.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

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Lost you on some of that. But at the end I noticed you said you ran it with everything in the pot... did you let it sit for any amount of time to steep, or results tend to be just as good either way/just add more if not steeping? And maybe this is a good time to ask, I've got a column/reflux still (I don't run water through reflux for anything but neutrals), I was thinking it would be possible to just stuff spices wrapped in cheesecloth just prior to the vapors condensing. Or is that a horrible idea?
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

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That one, I steeped overnight, which as long as I usually steep for.

I've never been a fan of the idea of stuffing botanicals into a column, with the exception of just the citrus peels, because the vapor speed is comparatively high. Just because some distillers run with botanicals in the vapor path doesn't mean it's the best way to run every gin. My baskets are very wide and the vapor speed is very slow and I do the runs a lot slower than I do when everything is in the pot. It makes fine gin, but is it worth the extra time and effort? Not for most of the gins I make.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

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Not sure if you may have tried, but I do have a false bottom I can stick in my boiler... do you know if it would come through too strong if I tossed the larger things (cinnamon bark, ginger root, nutmeg [whole/cracked]) with the brandy, or rather hard cider, and distilled on the spices? Not sure if that's how one would term it, but I think you get the concept.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by wpkluck »

Avalir wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:44 pm Not sure if you may have tried, but I do have a false bottom I can stick in my boiler... do you know if it would come through too strong if I tossed the larger things (cinnamon bark, ginger root, nutmeg [whole/cracked]) with the brandy, or rather hard cider, and distilled on the spices? Not sure if that's how one would term it, but I think you get the concept.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

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Avalir wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:44 pm Not sure if you may have tried, but I do have a false bottom I can stick in my boiler... do you know if it would come through too strong if I tossed the larger things (cinnamon bark, ginger root, nutmeg [whole/cracked]) with the brandy, or rather hard cider, and distilled on the spices? Not sure if that's how one would term it, but I think you get the concept.
A lot of us do that, with and without a false bottom, but not often with uncut spirit like wash or low wines because then you would have to choose between throwing out your flavors when doing the cuts, or leaving your heads and tails in to keep your spices. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 14&t=48668
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Id be careful with amounts and how far I went into the run when using both Nutmeg and Cinnamon, both can easily overpower other flavours, especially later in a run........least that's been my experience when making Gin and Ouzo.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

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NZChris wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:02 pm A lot of us do that, with and without a false bottom, but not often with uncut spirit like wash or low wines because then you would have to choose between throwing out your flavors when doing the cuts, or leaving your heads and tails in to keep your spices. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 14&t=48668
I really appreciate the link. Got so lost in my thoughts that I didnt even think to jump over to some gin topics for reading.
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by Avalir »

I'll really have to play around with it. Its gonna be a rat race trying to get tons of ferments going before all that gross manager special cider spoils (usually within a couple days). But I'll try to do enough to run at least a few experiments, then the next year can work that further. So here's hoping in 2-3 years I'll have something great, with too many steps and techniques for anybody to even want to do more than once a year
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Re: Apple Corn Whiskey?

Post by NormandieStill »

Another possibility to test might be to age your simple whiskey on staves from a used cider barrel (if you have a source for such a thing). This just occurred to me when I saw a local seller on a small ads website, selling 120l used cider barrels for 40 EUR. I'm tempted to pick one up for large scale ferments, but it occurred to me that there might be some flavour in the wood that could be pulled out.
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