My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Many like to post about a first successful ferment (or first all grain mash), or first still built/bought or first good run of the still. Tell us about all of these great times here.
Pics are VERY welcome, we drool over pretty copper 8)

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SomethingObscure
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My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by SomethingObscure »

Well I'm still very new to this hobby and learning everyday, I've done 17 spirit runs now mostly rum but one all grain angle yeast(AGAY). And this was my 4th neutral run. Today I got the benchmark that is azeo.

Not that it that number means much (especially because I'm sure my alcohometer isn't super accurate), i've been learning to drive my CCVM for a few weeks now, to start I reran my sac run several time adjusting little things each time. But couldn't seem to get above 94%. I was getting a real variation on the max power before I got flooding. On this run I removed all the copper mesh having already used it for the stripping runs. This allowed the sintered glass balls to drain more freely. I thought I could breath easily though the column with the mesh but I just couldn't get the power up to the levels I was expecting without flooding

So now I have about 1.3m of sintered glass balls about pea sized, held up by a copper cage. I can run my 3" column at about 2650w RMS without flooding. And take product at just over 4.5l per hour.

But I guess as always the proof is in the tasting.

Thanks everyone for getting me here

SomethingObscure
boomstick
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by boomstick »

Sounds cool, what kind of sintered glass balls are you using? I've only tried scrubbies so far but dont really like handeling them. Do you have a product link?
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SomethingObscure
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

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boomstick wrote:Sounds cool, what kind of sintered glass balls are you using? I've only tried scrubbies so far but dont really like handeling them. Do you have a product link?
Hi broomstick,

It's filter.media, they are called EHEIM SUBSTRAT pro. I ended up using 6litres in my column. I think Bunny tested something similar in his much smaller column.
https://eheim.com/en_GB/aquatics/filter ... atpro-180g

I did try lava rock but had real trouble breaking then in to small enough pieces and found washing them a PITA. Hopefully these will be easier. If not I have some larger marbles (14mm) which I think I'll get similar results.

Cheers SomethingObscure
StillerBoy
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by StillerBoy »

You have figured out a lots of item with running a column in reflux mode, which many don't, and that is a good indicator of your abilities..

Here's a few tricks you may want to try out..

When doing a reflux run, don't power under full power until the vapors break through the packing.. at about 150*F or the base of the column get hot to the touch, cut power back.. no know what power you have, it's difficult to state a power range.. on my unit, which as a 5500w element, I cut back to 1800w.. what this does is allow the column vapors to slowly work through the packing, and allow the refluxing to start on a smoother refluxing cycle..

Remove as much scrubbies out of the column as possible.. scrubbies are very hard at providing a reliable "re-packing", thereby hard to reduplicate from run to run.. have never worked with sintered glass balls, so can't speak on them, but I can speak on the usage of lava rock.. they are not a PITA to wash and are easy to size.. and are one of the best packing material around, providing they are sized properly.. the sintered glass balls should work well, as you have indicated.. but the trick to them working well is in there size, pea size, that's the trick in packing, all the same size as much as possible..

The other point is learn to balance the power usage, with the packing used, and the RC's ability to condense the vapors.. once understood, running a reflux column become so much easier..

Your next level of learning to run a reflux column, it running it in semi flooding state...

Enjoy the journey of experimenting and learning..
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

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SomethingObscure
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

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StillerBoy wrote: ...
When doing a reflux run, don't power under full power until the vapors break through the packing.. at about 150*F or the base of the column get hot to the touch, cut power back.. no know what power you have, it's difficult to state a power range.. on my unit, which as a 5500w element, I cut back to 1800w.. what this does is allow the column vapors to slowly work through the packing, and allow the refluxing to start on a smoother refluxing cycle..
...
..
Thanks for the feedback Mars.
When I say PITA maybe I'm just being anal about cleaning or maybe it's the rocks we get in the UK. But breaking small rocks in to tiny rocks was no fun. I recommend these sintered glass balls. It was your comments about lava rock sizing that lead me to go this way, as I just couldn't get good consistent size and shape of rocks and these ball seemed to be both perfect shape and size.

I'm not sure I've understood what you mean about "don't power under full power" do you mean don't power less than full power. Or don't use full power? (Rereading I think you mean the later)
I have 9000w of heater, but in reality I only get just over 8200w RMS.

I've been running my boiler at about 2kw maybe just under for warm up and while the column is getting balanced / equalised. Then slowly increase power while taking fores and heads which I took at about 2l/hr.

When I went much above 2.7kw my column flooded. So dialed it back to 2600w. But that was under full reflux after taking heads. I didn't try to increase power again after I reduced the reflux and increase the takeoff. Maybe I'll try that next time.

With the lava rocks I could easily hear the rock dancing in the column as it began to flood but I didn't detect it (with the balls) before I got flooding at the top of the packing (in the sight glass).

Every time I run my still in reflux mode I get a little more comfortable. I've got another batch of All molasses rum bubbling away and will probably run that next weekend. But then I'll probably make some more neutral wash.

I really am enjoying this journey of experimenting, trying new things and learning.

Cheers SomethingObscure
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

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SomethingObscure wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:03 pm I've been running my boiler at about 2kw maybe just under for warm up and while the column is getting balanced / equalised. Then slowly increase power while taking fores and heads which I took at about 2l/hr
At the start of a run using a reflux column, use full power.. once the column base is hot to the touch (I have temp probe at the base of the column) or 150*F, reduce power to about 1800w or so.. at the power range it should take the vapors about 15 min to build up and break through the packing (this is indicated as I have a temp probe about 1" above the packing).. at that point allow equalization/stabilization to take place or say 5 min at the at the same power setting.. once the equalization has started to take place, increase power some..

For operating at the semi flooded state, increase power some for me means one amp or about 250w.. and give the vapors time to increase in their action, say about 5 min and listen to the column.. you should be able to hear a light bubbling, if not add another 100w and wait about 5 min for the action, and so on until the bubbling starts.. once you hear it lightly bubbling, give a few min, and if the bubbling increase, reduce power about 50w and so on until the bubbling become stable..

You will notice that the top temp probe will drop anywhere from .3 - .5 in tenth of a degree just as the bubbling is about to start.. giving you a higher purity level.. and that temp indicator will remain stable throughout the run if managed right.. and this is for equalization / stabilization period and done for about 15 min..

After the E/S period I take off heads at the rate of 100ml per 12 min or in that range.. making some small adjustment to the power for the take off action will de-stabilize the refluxing activity some, and needs to be readjusted.. once the heads are taken out, increase power some to compensate to the increase take off rate, always maintaining the original temp indicator within 1 - 2 tenth of the original number and maintain that number through the body section..

Also it is a good method to maintain the outlet water temp of the RC at a stable temp.. as an unstable temp will cause a change in the reflux activity in the column..

Once the body section is almost done, the top temp indicator, will start to change by increasing, which is an indicator that the early tails are starting to go through.. at that point reduce the take off rate some, to the point the the top temp indicator return to the original number.. by reducing the take off rate, one is compressing the early tails, which are still good to keep..

So these are just a few point on running a reflux column at its maximum efficency..

As to making pea size lava rocks, they are quite easy, but they do take some time.. the link describes the way I do lava rocks..
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=82850
SomethingObscure wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:03 pm With the lava rocks I could easily hear the rock dancing in the column as it began to flood but I didn't detect it (with the balls) before I got flooding at the top of the packing (in the sight glass).
Yes lava rocks are easy to hear them bubbling/dancing.. the glass balls remind me of glass marbles, as I use 10mm ones for running in hybrid mode.. the glass marbles the sound is very light, but still there.. if there is other noises in the area, one will not hear it or miss it..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

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bluefish_dist
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by bluefish_dist »

I would slow down your takeoff to see if you can up the purity a little. With the power and diameter, I would expect 2l/hr would be about right for max purity. I did a bit over 4l/hr on my 4” at 5500w.
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by Saltbush Bill »

bluefish_dist wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:42 am I would slow down your takeoff to see if you can up the purity a little.
SomethingObscure wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:52 am I can run my 3" column at about 2650w RMS without flooding. And take product at just over 4.5l per hour.
Seems like a real fast take off for 3 inch to me too. Im guessing 3.something L per hour would be better.....over 4L per hour using only 2650w is pushing real hard imo.
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

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A big thanks for all the advice.

I checked the jars abv and sure enough the purity had dropped as I increased the take off speed.

So today I watered it down to 40% and reran it. Practice makes perfect.

So this time. I ran at full power (8kw) for about 15 minutes ( heat up) then dialed it down to 2kw and allowed the column to come up to temp in full reflux. After maybe 45 minutes I increase the power to about 2700w when I got the first signs of flooding I dialed it back to about 2600w and could tell I was maintaining a partially flooded column in full reflux. I let it stabilise for about 10 minutes, I then increase the power and raise the reflux condenser, the take off was a little under 2l per hour. I slowly increased the power to between 2800 and 3000w and had the column partially flooded.

I took abv reading every 300ml and it maintained a steady 95 without temp correction. My distillate comes off at around 15*c.

I was surprised how high I needed to have the power to maintain a flooded column at only 2l/hr. I might try to push the power and take off speed to see it I can maintain the purity.

Are there any disadvantages in increasing take off rate?

Cheers SomethingObscure

Edited to write something that I understand and hopefully others do too.

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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by SomethingObscure »

SomethingObscure wrote:
Are there any disadvantages in increasing take off rate?
Sorry meant to ask if there are any disadvantages in increasing take off rate and power and so maintaining purity?

Would I even maintain purity or would the increased vapour speed create smearing?

Cheers SomethingObscure
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by StillerBoy »

SomethingObscure wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:35 am I was surprised how high I needed to have the power to maintain a flooded column at only 2l/hr. I might try to push the power and take off speed to see it I can maintain the purity.
There will be a point of no return, meaning you have research the limit of your refluxing setup, being the amount of power used, the packing used, and the ability of RC to knockdown the vapors..

It's call having the unit "dialed in"
SomethingObscure wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:35 am Are there any disadvantages in increasing take off rate?
Yes there is, and it is the time saved in doing a run.. with the packing you are using, plus the column size of 3" and length of almost 4', you should be able to achieve 3 - 3.5L/hr.. I achieve 3L/hr at 95% with 36" column easily using 1/4" lava rocks..

To achieve the maximum point in take off rate lays in the ability to control the refluxing activity in full equilibrium.. this is done by maintaining the temp probe at the top of the packing at a stable temp..

Mars
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Re: My first.. Time hitting azeo...

Post by bluefish_dist »

The disadvantage of increasing takeoff rate is that at some point you can no longer hold azeo. More power only gets you so far, then the column will flood. If takeoff gets too high you can’t get enough reflux for high abv. It’s about learning your still.

If you want faster, you can either go taller, larger diameter or both. Taller will require less reflux for the same purity, so you can increase takeoff rate and not lower purity. Larger lowers vapor speed, so purity will go up, then if you have more power you can run faster.
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