CCVM still first time build

Many like to post about a first successful ferment (or first all grain mash), or first still built/bought or first good run of the still. Tell us about all of these great times here.
Pics are VERY welcome, we drool over pretty copper 8)

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MooseMan
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CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Hi guys, new poster but long time browser of the forums.

I'm just starting my first still build and a couple people said put pics up so I'll do my best.

I've settled on a CCVM as it seems a pretty simple build but critically, also seems to be an easy still to learn on and control.

So, boiler is an 11gal keg that's going to have 2x 2kw elements in, I've got the spear out and cleaned up the flange. I have ordered a 2" to 2.5" reducer to go from the keg flange to the 2.5" column that I will be making.

I have almost 7ft of 2.5" so once I've decided on the length of the column and cut it, I'll have a fair bit left to use for a PC if I want to.

At the top of the column, I really don't want to have to buy a 2.5" tee and another 3x tri clamps, not to mention have to make another 3x easy flanges...

So, do you guys think I would get the same result by cutting into the column around a foot down, and soldering in a piece of 2.5" at 90° to make my own tee for the take off/PC section?

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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

IMG_20210530_090524_155.jpg
2" Keg Flange
IMG_20210530_090549_262.jpg
2.5" Easy Flange
IMG_20210530_090601_127.jpg
2.5" Easy Flange
IMG_20210530_090632_671.jpg
2.5" column, uncut
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by Setsumi »

yes, you can make your own take off as you stated.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

I've never tried to solder in at 90 before, any tips?
Should I flare it a little to get a better surface area for the solder?
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by Setsumi »

make your hole a bit smaller than your pipe. cope your pipe and make a jig that will hold the 2 pieces together.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

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Setsumi wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:34 am make your hole a bit smaller than your pipe. cope your pipe and make a jig that will hold the 2 pieces together.
Thanks for that, the jig is a definite!
Clamps and bits of wood galore!

Would you say 10" down is enough room for the RC in the top?
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by Setsumi »

10" for the shell will be fine. your RC bottom should be lower than your take off. 2" should be fine depending on your liquid volume and flow rate... but just get your coil some past the take off.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

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Setsumi wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:51 am 10" for the shell will be fine. your RC bottom should be lower than your take off. 2" should be fine depending on your liquid volume and flow rate... but just get your coil some past the take off.
Thanks Setsumi, that's just the advice I was looking for.
I'll update once I've made some progress.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Ok, so I mentioned copper packing for the column.
I have the usual, copper fine mesh material on rolls, that send to be a common packing.
But I also have some thicker wire copper mesh, more like chicken wire kind of thickness but in a woven mesh.
I'll clean some up and put up a pic when I get home from work.

Would I get any benefit out of using this intermittently between the finer stuff? Or instead of?
I was thinking of using a big ball of it at the base of my column as a support in any case, to prevent any of the finer mesh getting pushed down into the boiler. The 2" to 2.5" reducer will keep it in place.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

IMG_20210602_195306_501.jpg
Common Copper mesh
IMG_20210602_195311_434.jpg
Thick copper wire mesh
IMG_20210602_195320_460.jpg
Comparison

Thoughts and suggestions guys?
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by greggn »

MooseMan wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:19 am Thoughts and suggestions guys?

If you're absolutely confident that the thicker mesh is 100% copper then that's what I'd try. I like the fact that a thicker mesh will hold a form ... so it's not going to compress and risk flooding (as can happen with the finer mesh).

That said, since you have a lot of copper in your spools then you don't necessarily need more as packing. Raschig rings, lava rocks, marbles all have fans here so don't be afraid to experiment.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by Deplorable »

I run 35 inches of this woven 4 strand copper mesh in my 2" column, and it consistently runs 95% . If I had another 5 inches of spool to increase my height I could probably put 2L/hour at that ABV. As it is I'm about 1.5L/Hour. Pushing any faster the ABV drops to 93 and starts to smear tails.
20210602_190631.jpg
20210602_190603.jpg
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

greggn wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:40 pm
MooseMan wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:19 am Thoughts and suggestions guys?

If you're absolutely confident that the thicker mesh is 100% copper then that's what I'd try. I like the fact that a thicker mesh will hold a form ... so it's not going to compress and risk flooding (as can happen with the finer mesh).

That said, since you have a lot of copper in your spools then you don't necessarily need more as packing. Raschig rings, lava rocks, marbles all have fans here so don't be afraid to experiment.
I'm as sure as I can be Gregg, it's not magnetic, cleans to a bright copper colour in acid, I've looked at a cross section under magnification and it's the same colour right through.
Without getting some tested by spectroscopy I can't do much else can I?

Yes as you say it's more likely to hold form that's why I was thinking of using the 2 meshes in combination and definitely in the base, not knowing if it'd get a good result... but then deplorable replied! :D :clap:
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:15 pm I run 35 inches of this woven 4 strand copper mesh in my 2" column, and it consistently runs 95% . If I had another 5 inches of spool to increase my height I could probably put 2L/hour at that ABV. As it is I'm about 1.5L/Hour. Pushing any faster the ABV drops to 93 and starts to smear tails.
20210602_190631.jpg20210602_190603.jpg
Thank you Deplorable, this is exactly what I was hoping for!
I "Found" this copper mesh, so I don't know what it's called or what it was intended for. Therefore couldn't search to see if others have used it.
Thanks for taking the time to post a picture of yours, that's super helpful.
I have been planning to cut my 2.5" column to 42" packed length, plus another 10" for the RC in the top.
If you are achieving those results with what you have, I'm absolutely stoked to get this thing up and running to see what it can do!!!

Do you think 42" packed at 2.5" is overkill?
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Ok some bits I ordered to get started arrived, so I thought I'd throw up a couple more photos.
IMG_20210602_194443_815.jpg
2" keg to 2.5" column adapter.
I had to shave the rim off one side of the PTFE seal.
IMG_20210602_194410_783.jpg
Had to clean up my DIY flange as the face was full of dinks from the paen hammer. Mill filed, diamond honed.
IMG_20210602_194635_479.jpg
It fits!!! :o

Now I just need to muster the courage to cut the column to length, then drill a 65mm hole in it a foot down to put a 90 in. This bit scares me.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

A question I had meant to ask about the packing.

Whichever mesh or combination I use, what effect does the "Tightness" of the packing have?

Is it as simple as, more dense can give higher purity but runs slower due to physical restriction?

So consequently, looser is faster but does not have as effective reflux action?

The pic that Deplorable put up shows pretty tightly rolled mesh. In my head the packing I was going to put in was more loosely rolled/balled up.

Just want to understand the difference from the huge pool of experience there is here.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by kimbodious »

If your packing is too tight you will have issues where the condensate is restricted in it’s return to the boiler. The risk is that condensate will build up and overflow via the offtake.
Purity will be high (until you get flooding) but rate of output will be low.

Not enough or too loose packing and you get less opportunity for mingling of the vapour with the condensate. This impacts on the rate of purification of the vapour. Rate of output will be higher but purity will be lower.

There is the happy medium to find. IMHO slightly less than optimal packing can be adapted for by higher rate of vapour flow. I find that less stressful than constant monitoring and tweaking vapour flow to avoid flooding.

You adjust the rate of vapour flow by adjusting the heating power to the boiler.

IMHO you’ll get better mingling of condensate and vapour if the packing is randomly arranged. That is to unroll the packing and tease it out and scrunch it up. The condensate will follow the easiest path to the boiler either down the walls or down the path between the layers in the rolls.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

kimbodious wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:29 am IMHO you’ll get better mingling of condensate and vapour if the packing is randomly arranged. That is to unroll the packing and tease it out and scrunch it up. The condensate will follow the easiest path to the boiler either down the walls or down the path between the layers in the rolls.
Thanks for this Kimbodious, I'm leaning towards using a combination of the 2 meshes I have, so based on your advice I think I'll get the finer mesh all bushy and wrap the thicker stuff intermittently around it so there's a nice structure to prevent it being compressed.

By the way, your still design and explanations of it, is what made me decide on CCVM after loads of research.
I'm wanting to do neutrals, but I know I can also charge it to a pot still in a jiffy should I want to.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by kimbodious »

All good, glad I could help!
It is nice to have neutral spirit to make liqueurs etc but pot stilling is my joy. This is the beauty of modular systems, build what you need for the task ahead :thumbup:
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Ok, an update.

I was bumbling around in the garden, and decided to pick some of the Rhubarb that just keeps coming through (I grow it for wine) when I suddenly remembered why you can't eat the leaves... Oxalyc acid!

So I threw some in a blender with a bit of water, poured out into a bucket and dropped a section of the heavily oxidised thick copper mesh in.
IMG_20210608_182541_240.jpg
Rhubarb leaves
IMG_20210607_190732_438.jpg
IMG_20210607_190729_942.jpg
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Tried to post a pic of the result, but can't seem to attach any more photos to the thread, have I hit a size limit?
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by Rum Agol »

MooseMan have you cut into your column yet for the T? Im thinking it would be easier just to use a 2.5" end feed T - no need for flanges or tri clamps. I use this on my 2" column and use a wrap of ptfe tape to seal the joints -works fine
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Re: CCVM still first time build

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Rum Agol wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:56 am MooseMan have you cut into your column yet for the T? Im thinking it would be easier just to use a 2.5" end feed T - no need for flanges or tri clamps. I use this on my 2" column and use a wrap of ptfe tape to seal the joints -works fine
Actually Rum, I've decided that to get the most out of my still and to make it more future proof so that I can enjoy it for longer, it's best after all to get a stainless tee and an elbow, so I've ordered them, along with the needed tri clamps.
It means I'll have to make another couple of easy flanges, but I think in the end I'll have a more versatile setup.

The decider was, that I found a place in the UK that sells a large range of sanitary stainless parts at very reasonable prices.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by Rum Agol »

Great that you've taken the plunge - look forward to seeing your progress
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by S-Cackalacky »

MooseMan, good luck with your build! You'll probably finish yours before I do and I started mine in 2016. Been finished for the most part, except for a first spirit run. I look forward to hearing about your experiences running yours. Have fun and stay safe.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by cob »

MooseMan put copper gauze in the search. Lots of info to be had.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Thanks gents, I'll keep posting updates as I go in any case.
Tackling the element ports in the keg later today.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by MooseMan »

Another little update then, I managed to find 2x SS 316 hose barb fittings at work (1" BSP)

I parted the hose barbs off on the lathe, to leave just a bolt, basically.
IMG_20210608_182839_134.jpg
I've done lots of reading and searching, and it seems silver soldering is an acceptable way to join Stainless together providing it's not load bearing.
So, I've turned a shoulder into them, to seat into the holes in the keg and provide more surface area contact and hopefully a stronger bond!
16234840463783072086002320569047.jpg
Is there any sage advice from people who have soldered element threads in?
I've got kester liquid flux, I've got silver solder and I've got a (Pretty crappy!) butane/propane torch.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

Post by NormandieStill »

I've soldered a few connections now with silver solder. I'm using an oxy-butane rig, Rovista liquid flux for zinc / stainless, and a 3% Ag solder (Tin / Silver and nothing else). Knowing how long it takes to get to temperature using my oxy rig, I'd be wary about using a simple propane torch. If you can stomach the investment and can't get your hands on a oxy-gas setup then I would buy a simple MAPP torch. I successfully brazed chromealloy bike frames with a Bernzomatic MAPP torch. If you're in a largish town / city have a look for artist workshops. In Edinburgh there was a group that hired out workspace + tools to sculptors where I hired an oxy-acetylene rig for an hour to braze up two joints that were just too big for my MAPP torch. Or see if there's a local plumber who could be persuaded to hire you the tools. If you do decide that you want an oxy-gas torch, accept the pain and buy one with a rechargable oxygen cylinder. The throwaway cylinder kits seem interesting until you realise how quickly you burn through the oxygen bottles.

In terms of joint prep, get as close a fit as possible. In a perfect world they should be push fit and hold through friction without any visible gaps. In my experience, with a little practice you can fill some small gaps, but the more filling you're doing, the weaker the joint.
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Re: CCVM still first time build

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NormandieStill wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:09 am I've soldered a few connections now with silver solder. I'm using an oxy-butane rig, Rovista liquid flux for zinc / stainless, and a 3% Ag solder (Tin / Silver and nothing else). Knowing how long it takes to get to temperature using my oxy rig, I'd be wary about using a simple propane torch. If you can stomach the investment and can't get your hands on a oxy-gas setup then I would buy a simple MAPP torch. I successfully brazed chromealloy bike frames with a Bernzomatic MAPP torch. If you're in a largish town / city have a look for artist workshops. In Edinburgh there was a group that hired out workspace + tools to sculptors where I hired an oxy-acetylene rig for an hour to braze up two joints that were just too big for my MAPP torch. Or see if there's a local plumber who could be persuaded to hire you the tools. If you do decide that you want an oxy-gas torch, accept the pain and buy one with a rechargable oxygen cylinder. The throwaway cylinder kits seem interesting until you realise how quickly you burn through the oxygen bottles.

In terms of joint prep, get as close a fit as possible. In a perfect world they should be push fit and hold through friction without any visible gaps. In my experience, with a little practice you can fill some small gaps, but the more filling you're doing, the weaker the joint.
Thank you for taking the time to give me so much useful information regarding the heating, that's the bit I just can't get clear in my brain. I've even read of people using an iron and getting it done? Surely not?!
I do have a friend who is a heating engineer/plumber so I'll speak to him about this for sure and see what he's got.

I'm really hoping that I get a clean, perfectly round cut through the keg on the last cuts with the step drill, as I've settled on 36mm holes and turned a 35.8mm shoulder into the fittings hoping for a nice snug fit.
I'm also planning to seat the fittings and hammer them into the face of the keg to create a nice flat seat before soldering.

I guess I'll just try it, and if I fail I'll have to de-solder and get them welded (C. £60) locally.

I'll post pics of whatever the result is! :?
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