First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Many like to post about a first successful ferment (or first all grain mash), or first still built/bought or first good run of the still. Tell us about all of these great times here.
Pics are VERY welcome, we drool over pretty copper 8)

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PLAYMP
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First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

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Did a vinegar run and sac run today on my 3'' VM rig with 13 gallon boiler, 4500W element, and SPP packing. 5 years ago I was playing around with one of those chinese stovetop stills so I'm really feeling graduated to the big leagues now. Sac run was Wineos Plain Ol' Sugar Wash which I highly recommend and will probably be my go-to sugar wash having tried birdwatchers way back in the day.

Overall things went really well, learned a lot on the fly and really excited to get started making the drinkable stuff. For the seasoned experts I've got a question about driving this thing for anybody who wants to chime in:

Water was being circulated via ~20 gallon sink with a 400gph submersible pump. My reflux condenser, this one:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000248 ... f19cKTS59d

heated up pretty quickly once vapor flooded the column. I tried to practice having my takeoff valve closed and letting the column equilibrate but I was adding cold water constantly to my sink to keep vapor from leaking out the top.

I don't know if I was going way too fast or if my sink/pump setup needs rethinking, or if my condenser isn't going to work. I hope it's not the condenser and thought it would be overkill if anything. Anyway, if anybody has any thoughts I would love to consider them. I had maybe between 1800-2500 watts going through my element during this time but it's a bit of a blur honestly. Eventually I caved and removed the reflux condenser, capped it and ran as pot still the rest of each run and my shotgun condenser had zero trouble knocking down vapor and I had a healthy stream going at 2500w.

Anyway if you stuck around this long, here's a pic of the rig in question:
IMG_7673test2 (12.jpeg
And here's where my run started which to a lot of you is probably pretty normal but for me was was awesome to see:
IMG_767412.jpeg
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Am I looking at this wrong or is there going to be a huge pool of spirit sitting in the end cap where the 2 inch ends and the skinny pipe to the parrot begins?
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EricTheRed
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by EricTheRed »

Please tell me you are NOT collecting into that green bucket?
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by tjsc5f »

I mean he says it's a sac cleaning run, so collecting into the green bucket wouldn't be the end of the world.
I agree with Saltbush on the setup though, it looks like there's going to be a lot of liquid sitting and smearing in that elbow and reducer - not good.
Is your sink water hot to the touch when you start getting vapor out the top? If not you might be able to increase the cooling ability of the RC by stuffing it with some scrubbies to up the surface. If the water is hot to the touch, then your RC is doing all it can and you just don't have enough water. I think most of the guys that do recirculation here without any type of heat exchanger use 55gal.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by Setsumi »

Whatch your inlet on the product condenser for a kink especially once your resivour starts to heat up.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Setsumi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:55 pm Watch your inlet on the product condenser for a kink especially once your resivour starts to heat up.
The way that looks to me there is a damn good chance it will.......its an accident waiting to happen, needs to be fixed.
PLAYMP
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 10:15 pm
Setsumi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:55 pm Watch your inlet on the product condenser for a kink especially once your resivour starts to heat up.
The way that looks to me there is a damn good chance it will.......its an accident waiting to happen, needs to be fixed.
This was a a concern while I was running, although more on the outlet of the reflux condenser where the hot water was really softening it up. In any case I made a note that hose upgrades are probably on the menu here.

You’re right about the parrot too.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by PLAYMP »

EricTheRed wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:48 pm Please tell me you are NOT collecting into that green bucket?
Nah, optical illusion. I was collecting into the orange bucket! It’s nothing drinkable anyways.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by Salt Must Flow »

As mentioned, definitely get some stainless scrubbers, stuff it in the reflux condenser and that should help a lot considering your condenser is wide open in the middle (single coil). My 3" VM has a double wound coil reflux condenser and I had to stuff scrubbers in it too. Once you do that it should be fine.
Reflux Condenser 03.jpg
You could install a couple of 90 elbows or something like that in the reflux condenser so that your hoses literally hang straight down. That would keep them from kinking.
Reflux Condenser 04.jpg
I would recommend taking good notes of what power you run, your takeoff rate, your collection rate and what ABV your product is. That will help you understand how to run your still over time when you test running at different power levels.

Have you checked to see what your product temp is as it is exiting your shotgun condenser? That is helpful to know if you have to do a temp correction to know what the % ABV is. If it comes off at 60F, you need no temp correction.

Parrots are ok for stripping runs, but they cause smearing during spirit runs. As pointed out, I'd ditch that 2" elbow because it causes pooling and severe smearing. You could modify that parrot by cutting that small elbow off and having it TIG welded so it can be usable after ditching that 2" elbow. Another option would be to weld/solder a small stainless or copper funnel to it and rig up a stand to hold the parrot.

I've always controlled my condensers individually rather than link them both together with the water lines. I supply each condenser with their own water line and control the flow with a valve. I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong. For me, I've found that I could operate each condenser more optimally by controlling the flow to each individually. I'm on well water, do not recycle the water and do not care about my water consumption. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably do it like you have it set up now, but if you find that you're having issues with vapor escaping the reflux condenser, it might be due to it being fed hot water from the shotgun. One solution would be to up the flow rate or supply each condenser with their own cool water line.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by PLAYMP »

Cheers, thanks a million for the detailed post. Gives me plenty to try with the condenser. Thinking back my shotgun really held up beautifully relative to the RC, and the water going to the RC really wasn't hot at all which leads me to think the first thing to try is those scrubbies and see what happens. My pump could be easily upgraded as well.

I was concerned with Parrots smearing in general and didn't plan to use it much (but wanted to include it in my cleaning runs), but as everyone is pointing out mine is particularly flawed and warrants a mod if I'm going to use it again.

I wanted to take a ton of notes but the running around checking the power, the water, the temps of my hose and the product and the vapor got the best of me.

Thanks again for taking the time, this community is an incredible resource.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

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If you stick a 3" sight glass beneath the tee you'll really appreciate it :thumbup: I really enjoy being able to see the reflux falling onto the packing. I flattened out a piece of copper pipe, cut it to size, cut the slits using a Dremel tool and made like a centering collar using a Still Dragon Plate Gasket. It direct 100% of the reflux straight down the center of the column. If you don't do anything like this, all you'll see is the reflux running down the side of the sight glass.
Centering Plate.jpg

The very best insulation I've found for my column I bought from Lowes. It's a soft, almost rubbery foam insulation. Even while the column is smoking hot, you can't feel the heat through this insulation. I forget what size I bought, but I cut it to length and it took two pieces to fit perfectly and encapsulate 3" pipe. The peel & stick adhesive holds it together very well. It may not require this, but I secured the insulation using Harbor Freight velcro strap. I just wrap my boiler with a cotton sleeping bag to insulate it.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by PLAYMP »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:21 am If you stick a 3" sight glass beneath the tee, you'll really appreciate it :thumbup: I really enjoy being able to see the reflux falling onto the packing. I flattened out a piece of copper pipe, cut it to size, cut the slits using a Dremel tool and made like a centering collar using a Still Dragon Plate Gasket. It direct 100% of the reflux straight down the center of the column. If you don't do anything like this, all you'll see is the reflux running down the side of the sight glass.

Centering Plate.jpg
Huh that is very cool.

One thing I neglected to mention is I do have a sight glass that I bought years ago (this still is a long time coming). I noticed it was held together with silicone gaskets, I threw them out and replaced them with tri-clamp PTFE gaskets as a placeholder just to hold it together. Well I forgot to replace those gaskets and it leaked like a MF once I got running so I had to shut down and remove it on the fly.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by Salt Must Flow »

When I take notes regarding my takeoff rate, I also keep track of how many turns I opened the gate valve. Start by closing it until the knob can't turn anymore. Now turn it as though you are opening the valve and eventually you'll feel the knob meet resistance. That's the point where the gate is about to crack open. I marked that location on the knob as well as a reference point on the valve itself. Now when I open the valve let's say 3 complete turns, that amount is now reliable and repeatable during future runs. By doing this, my takeoff rate is always the same at a given power level. After a while you'll learn how many turns to take off foreshots, how many to take off heads and how many turns to take off hearts without fiddling with your adjustments to get it right.

Gate Valve Indicator.jpg

I'm just trying to think of all the little tips I can that really helped me to keep things running consistently and repeatable.

That's one hell of a nice rig you have there. A 3" VM like yours should be capable of putting out just over 3 lph at 97% ABV and if SPP performs as people say, you should be able to produce even faster.
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by PLAYMP »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:00 am
I'm just trying to think of all the little tips I can that really helped me to keep things running consistently and repeatable.

That's one hell of a nice rig you have there. A 3" VM like yours should be capable of putting out just over 3 lph at 97% ABV and if SPP performs as people say, you should be able to produce even faster.
Repeatability, versatility, and speed were huge for me in speccing this thing out. I love the classic VM over CCVM so that I can count the turns of my valve and do the same thing every time like you mention. Also needed something that could be reduced down to a pot still so I could make anything I wanted (although think what I'd most like to do right now is make some Gin to give out as xmas presents to a few close friends and family this year). And it has to be fast, lol. I'm a pretty involved dad to a 1 year old and I have very limited windows of time for this hobby so gotta be quick!
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Re: First Vinegar and Sac Runs complete this afternoon. Question!

Post by NormandieStill »

PLAYMP wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:29 am And it has to be fast, lol. I'm a pretty involved dad to a 1 year old and I have very limited windows of time for this hobby so gotta be quick!
As someone in a similar situation, my advice would be to manage your ferments well so that you never have fermenters sitting idle. That way when you can grab the time to run something, there's always wash available.
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