First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

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Kruegerfan
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First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Hi all,

Fairly new to the distilling community and really only done sugar washes with flavour essences before. Thanks to Trapped-In-oz I tried a rum wash which went great, however,

Just finished stripping a LME wash. Started at 1.080 and finished at 1.010 so still a little sugar left, but I have put that down to maybe some unfermentable sugars in the LME.

Searched for quite a while and couldn't find an answer to my question, so please forgive me as I bet it has been asked a thousand times. My low wines really just smell like lightly toasted malt and not anything like a whiskey at all. Is that normal? Will the spirit run and oaking totally change that?

Also, searched for an answer to this, but can't find any real indication of what's safe vs what's overkill. How much foreshots to take? does around 30ml per gallon sound okay?

Really want to get into this hobby properly so any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated. Next wash I do will definitely be AG.

Thanks in advance,

K
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by still_stirrin »

Kruegerfan wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:36 am Hi all,

Fairly new to the distilling community and really only done sugar washes with flavour essences before. Thanks to Trapped-In-oz I tried a rum wash which went great, however,

Just finished stripping a LME wash. Started at 1.080 and finished at 1.010 so still a little sugar left, but I have put that down to maybe some unfermentable sugars in the LME.

Searched for quite a while and couldn't find an answer to my question, so please forgive me as I bet it has been asked a thousand times. My low wines really just smell like lightly toasted malt and not anything like a whiskey at all. Is that normal? <— Yes. In fact, it is a very optimistic observation.
Will the spirit run and oaking totally change that? <— The spirit run will further concentrate flavors and aroma because you’re eliminating water, which is neutral in both regards.
And oak will make a big flavor and aroma change to the spirit as well. “Time on oak” is important for a whisky’s flavor, aroma, and color.


Also, searched for an answer to this, but can't find any real indication of what's safe vs what's overkill. How much foreshots to take? does around 30ml per gallon sound okay? <— First off, have you read Kiwistiller’s Guide to Cuts? That will give you an idea of “how much” of what is in your collection.
If you collect in small jars, you will be able to separate the fores, early heads, late heads, early hearts, hearts, late hearts, early tails, and tails. And when you do, take good notes (taste and smell AND %ABV) so you can learn what’s good and what’s not.
This will help you next time so YOU can answer this question for someone else.


Really want to get into this hobby properly so any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated. Next wash I do will definitely be AG.

Thanks in advance,

K
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Thanks SS.

That guide to cuts is great. I have already been doing most of that with my previous sugar washes, but looks like I haven't been discarding enough fores if Kiwistiller's numbers are anything to go by. One mistake I was making was tasting the cuts without proofing them down, and yes, I usually did get a bit tipsy when deciding what to keep. LOL

The information on this site is nothing short of amazing, and anyone I have spoken to has been so helpful. I hope the more I experiment, the more I will learn and the better my end products will become. I am force ageing a small sample of this on charred whiskey barrel oak chips. I have some staves on the way, but after doing 3 hot and cold cycles on the chips, I am already amazed at the difference in aroma.

I am going to do another 2-3 hot and cold cycles with the sample and see where I'm at. Also ordering a couple of small oak barrels to age my next couple of batches properly.

Thanks so much again
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by shadylane »

Save the jars that didn't make the cut.
Ya might need to add some of the early tails to get more whiskey flavor.
Here's an LME run I did awhile back, a friend of mine makes LME whiskey often.


viewtopic.php?f=11&t=83594
Kruegerfan
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

shadylane wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 am Save the jars that didn't make the cut.
Ya might need to add some of the early tails to get more whiskey flavor.
Here's an LME run I did awhile back, a friend of mine makes LME whiskey often.


viewtopic.php?f=11&t=83594
Thanks Shady. Just having a read and also jumped into Pikey's link for how he makes his faux Glenmorangie. I think I have used far too much LME on this wash as it seems reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaly strong. Might try the next one as a sugarhead and see how it turns out, and seeing as I AM actually in Scotland, I might just remove the E and call it a sugarhead WHISKY :D

Seems that Pikey's recipe and method still produces a decent drink using a fraction of the LME and cutting the cost considerably. Maybe worth a shot, and a little muslin bag with some peated grains might get it closer to the flavour I'm eventually looking for after getting used to some of the basics.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Kruegerfan wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:13 am
Back to the rum. Ordered that 7kg carton of Lyle's black treacle so will make a start on that next week.


excellent and molasses/treacle is so straightforward... there’s not much to say ~ )………… could save the dunder, hot from the boil, in sterilised jars.

..
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:34 am

excellent and molasses/treacle is so straightforward... there’s not much to say ~ )………… could save the dunder, hot from the boil, in sterilised jars.

..
Absolutely. Sipping on some of the last small batch of rum right now. You've definitely converted me. Well halfway anyway. It's even smoother now and damn tasty.

P.S. I think you mixed up your replies. You put this in the LME thread and the LME glucoamylase reply in my rum thread. You had a few glasses today as well? :D
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Kruegerfan wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:39 am
think you mixed up your replies.






..
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Ha ha

Love it
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by rubberduck71 »

I use a stainless steel straw, a jar of distilled water, & a shot glass to proof down cut samples. Even if you sample 20 jars, each one is at best 1/5 of an actual shot. That'll keep your head straight to make good cuts. Or just spit it out... Rinse out glass for each sample.

Start in the middle & work down towards tails. Then go back up towards heads, as those will fry your palate quickly.

My notes are very simple: check mark= keep, X = feints jar. Sometimes H? or T? to indicate I think it's going into heads or tails.

If you keep making the same recipe, you'll start seeing cuts coming at very similar ABV %.

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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by shadylane »

Kruegerfan wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:26 am
I think I have used far too much LME on this wash as it seems reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaly strong.
1.080 was probably too much.
Ya might try 1.060 and and gluco so it will finish closer to 1.000
You could save a little money and make a better product.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

rubberduck71 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:34 am I use a stainless steel straw, a jar of distilled water, & a shot glass to proof down cut samples. Even if you sample 20 jars, each one is at best 1/5 of an actual shot. That'll keep your head straight to make good cuts. Or just spit it out... Rinse out glass for each sample.

Start in the middle & work down towards tails. Then go back up towards heads, as those will fry your palate quickly.

My notes are very simple: check mark= keep, X = feints jar. Sometimes H? or T? to indicate I think it's going into heads or tails.

If you keep making the same recipe, you'll start seeing cuts coming at very similar ABV %.

Duck
Will defo be doing that next time Rubberduck. I have a small syringe that I use to make my eliquids for vaping so can measure 1 or 2ml per glass/jar and proof down for tasting. Think I fried my taste buds last time and got too tipsy in the process. LOL. Will probably stick to 3 main recipes that I will play around with over the next 6 months to perfect, so hopefully that will allow me to get used to what they should taste like.

Thanks
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

shadylane wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:50 pm
1.080 was probably too much.
Ya might try 1.060 and and gluco so it will finish closer to 1.000
You could save a little money and make a better product.
Thing is, I only have a small 4l still like Trapped-In-Oz, so 1.080 is an ideal gravity for final yield. If I started at 1.060, I'd have to make up 2 small fermenters of wash and do 4-6 stripping runs to get 1 spirit run out of that little thing.

Tempted to try the next batch as a sugarhead to dilute the flavour as the flavour is definitely too strong for me at the moment. Pikey's method for his easy Scotch seems very appealing. Will have a think.

I also have some Angel yellow label on the way which should eliminate the need for gluco.

Advice definitely taken on board, and defo makes sense for when I build my bigger still. Thanks so much
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Charred European white oak staves just arrived so have taken the last batch off the shitty toasted chips and popped one of the staves in instead. Hoping that makes a difference.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Kruegerfan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:29 am
European white oak staves just arrived


If European means French then you may wish they were American.

..
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:40 am

If European means French then you may wish they were American.

..
Never thought of that. Had tried the French oak chips before and didn't like the flavour at all. Will just need to wait and see how it turns out

Edit. Just learned a valuable lesson of the differences between the 2, which I know I should have done prior. Will defo be finding some American oak staves for future batches. Seriously don't think this first attempt is going to be any good. Made too many errors, but I guess it's all part of the learning process. Also can't thank you guys enough for all of your advice to date.
Last edited by Kruegerfan on Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by shadylane »

Kruegerfan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:12 am

Tempted to try the next batch as a sugarhead to dilute the flavour as the flavour is definitely too strong for me at the moment.
Maybe dilute the lowines before redistilling.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:18 am
Maybe dilute the lowines before redistilling.
I think the flavour will still be too strong, but will try that and see how I get on. If still too strong, will try the LME sugarhead to dilute the flavour before fermentation.

Been force ageing the sample with hot and cold cycles for the last 3 days to give me an idea what it might taste like in a month or 2. Still just a really strong malty flavour with literally no whiskey characteristics at all. Think I definitely fucked up.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Ben »

I think you might just need to start with dilution. Read this to start: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=68702&hilit=better+cuts+dilution
That thread was a game changer for me... I will dilute my stuff down several times during blending, I can find flaws at 15-20% that I cant at 45-50% in white.

Try watering down your drinking stock to mid-low 40% abv and see if it's more palatable. If the taste is really strong it may also be excess heads, its really difficult to make solid cuts with a pot still that small.
:)
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Kruegerfan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:14 am
valuable lesson of the differences

also possible….. could your ‘European white oak’ be American oak (Quercus alba, white oak) grown in Europe…..?

..
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Kruegerfan wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:25 am

just a really strong malty flavour with literally no whiskey characteristics


That’s because real Scotch tastes like a five year old complex of heads.

With your little Air Still and small wash there’s no need to be overthinking the cuts…… from 3 kg of Morgan’s LME can expect 300 ml of throw-away heads….. perhaps 250 ml with cleaner low yielding Coopers…. (or 350 ml if using glucoamylase ? ?).

..
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Ben wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:04 am I think you might just need to start with dilution. Read this to start: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=68702&hilit=better+cuts+dilution
That thread was a game changer for me... I will dilute my stuff down several times during blending, I can find flaws at 15-20% that I cant at 45-50% in white.

Try watering down your drinking stock to mid-low 40% abv and see if it's more palatable. If the taste is really strong it may also be excess heads, its really difficult to make solid cuts with a pot still that small.
Thanks Ben. Yeah, I read that after I had fried my taste buds and blended my cuts incorrectly. LOL. Will definitely be following it from now on. The sample is definitely mellowing out with the hot and cold cycles. Hardly any bite now, which is great. Just need to be patient now and wait for the wood flavours to kick in.

I'm ashamed to say that until I had made this batch, I had no idea that newly distilled whiskey actually tasted just like the malted barley. I had no idea that the wood gave it the whiskey taste I know and love. What a dick. I was under the impression that the wood only enhanced the flavour rather than completely transforming it. Had some interesting reading this morning
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:18 pm

also possible….. could your ‘European white oak’ be American oak (Quercus alba, white oak) grown in Europe…..?

..
It's not unfortunately. Read up about the company I bought it from. Their white oak comes from the South Balkans and is a species called Quercus petraea, so curious to see what it does as it's different from Quercus robur, so hoping the Quercus petraea is better.

The flavour profile from it sounds quite nice actually - (QUERCUS PETRAEA)
Typical flavors: Dry with prominent tannins and spice, and softer vanilla and fruits.

Just need to give this batch some time and see how it turns out I guess
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Kruegerfan »

Just had a quick check on the LME whisky. Seems to be coming along fine after a week of forced ageing. Still has a long way to go, but there are some nice spicy aromas starting to develop. Think it might actually turn out ok.

Angel yellow label yeast arrived yesterday, so defo doing an all grain this weekend.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

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So, you were right @Trapped-In-Oz

European oak is garbage. This LME whiskey ain't turning out so well at all. Don't like the flavour profile in the slightest. Really difficult to get decent priced American oak here for some reason, but found some from a guy in Ireland and awaiting delivery.

Got some cornflake whiskey fermenting from Odin's recipe and an all grain on the go with Angel yeast, so will defo be ageing them with the American oak. Not done another rum yet as both of my fermenters are in use, but defo doing another once one of these has finished.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Trapped-in-Oz »

Kruegerfan wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:35 am

European oak is garbage.


never said garbage.... have tried French and found American to be preferable. Perhaps French needs a slower process ?

..
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

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Trapped-in-Oz wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:26 pm

never said garbage.... have tried French and found American to be preferable. Perhaps French needs a slower process ?

..
Apologies. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. You said if my European oak was French, I'd wish it was American. Think you're right though. Seems the European oak does need a slower process.

Think I will stick to American if I can get it at a reasonable price
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Both have a place......where that place is , is fairly much personal choice.
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:55 pm Both have a place......where that place is , is fairly much personal choice.
Totally agree. Just not feeling the French oak at all. Seems to have a bit of coconut flavour coming through for some reason. May just need a little more time. Think it might be better suited to a rum etc. Might just save it for that
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Re: First non sugar whiskey wash with LME

Post by rubberduck71 »

Kruegerfan wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:10 am Totally agree. Just not feeling the French oak at all. Seems to have a bit of coconut flavour coming through for some reason. May just need a little more time. Think it might be better suited to a rum etc. Might just save it for that
As an experiment, I put a sample of CROW sugarhead on French and one on American oak. The French (to me) tasted spicier.
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