Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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cayars
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Re: How do You run Cold and Slow?

Post by cayars »

Another issue in that study is the use of plated columns. Poor choice.
While plates can increase ABV they can also smear more just like the use of thumpers can.
That makes it hard to know where the methanol was actually fractioned and if it was done correctly or not.

A true pot still or reflux still would have been a much better tool to use for a study like this.
The study doesn't go into nearly enough data for someone to replicate results.
Not to mention the amount of methanol they report is far outside industry norms. They report levels of methanol higher than similar freeze distillation which doesn't fraction at all at similar ABV levels!

There is a whole lot in that study that is rather "questionable" and I'd not put to much faith in it or the choice of ferments, the choice of stills, the lack of reproduction, the way tests were performed and especially the way the data is reported.
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Re: How do You run Cold and Slow?

Post by Swedish Pride »

cayars wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:46 am That's a great quote. :)
I'm ALWAYS up for learning something new and just started to read this thread and the main study linked, but I'm already finding what seems like flaws from my perspective. The devil is in the details and just like polls can be bent to show what you want.

Anyone who reads some of my posts, know I don't like some of the "jar cut diagrams" as I've mentioned they do not show heads, hearts and tails correctly and will say those graphs don't show tails components in the early jars, nor heads components in the tails collection jars. Those graphs seem to indicate there is only smearing between heads to hearts, then pure hearts, then smearing of hearts to tails. NOT SO at all. EVERYTHING is always smeared across the whole run. Methanol will be present in the first drop to the last drop but in different proportions across the run, Ethanol will be present from the first drop to the last drop in different proportions to the total of the drop volume.

I believe when most of us talk about percent of something we mean the percent to the whole, not a percent of one substance to another unless it's specifically mentioned. So for example if you show methanol levels increasing in the tails section is that a percent based on the total volume or as a comparison to the level of ethanol collected in that same volume?

So I think we'll all agree the ethanol drops as the run progresses and our proof and tralle hydrometers show us this. But if we say methanol levels are increasing it's IMPORTANT to differentiate if this means to total volume of the sample or to a proof gallon. Put another way I can say levels went up 500% in tails but what does that mean? Is there really 5 times more component X at the end vs the start or is it compared to Y which has been dropping the whole time and what we really mean is X isn't dropping as much as Y but it still far lower overall.

For sake of clarity if we assume Z substance doesn't fluctuate and the same amount is CONSTANT coming out of the still while every other component is shifting we would normally view this on a graph as being a straight line. But now if we show the data differently and compare Z to the output level of Ethanol and view this in a graph the line will start low at the start and get higher as we go because we are comparing it to something that is constantly dropping.

I have no issue saying "units of methanol per unit of pure alcohol" might rise in tails but what is that really saying? I know of no distiller who would care about looking at it that way. What they care about is the amount of methanol found per sample analyzed.

If you look at the raw data, it's definitely concentrated toward the start of the run and drops, just like ethanol but at a different rate.

Don't base assumptions on data that is not understood or shown using "slight of hand" reporting.

Man you take a long time to say not much.

I reckon you're the only one I've came across that gets their knickers in a twist over the jar charts, most of us learnt from it and didn't expect it to fit in to our own preferred way to view data instead we appreciated a handy chart from one of the early trailblazers.

If you have something that would be more useful/ accurate, pray share, I too am always interested in learning something new
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Re: How do You run Cold and Slow?

Post by Yummyrum »

cayars wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:52 am Another issue in that study is the use of plated columns. Poor choice.
While plates can increase ABV they can also smear more just like the use of thumpers can.
That makes it hard to know where the methanol was actually fractioned and if it was done correctly or not.

A true pot still or reflux still would have been a much better tool to use for a study like this.
The study doesn't go into nearly enough data for someone to replicate results.
Not to mention the amount of methanol they report is far outside industry norms. They report levels of methanol higher than similar freeze distillation which doesn't fraction at all at similar ABV levels!

There is a whole lot in that study that is rather "questionable" and I'd not put to much faith in it or the choice of ferments, the choice of stills, the lack of reproduction, the way tests were performed and especially the way the data is reported.
Cayers , have you in the last three months since you joined suddenly got a plated still and had time to run it to the point of reasonable competence so you can make such bold statements ........ or is this yet another regurgitated opinion of yours that you have come up with ?

You will get much more respect around here if you just shut the hell up until you have some real experience of your own to share rather than just commenting on everything as if you know it all .

Frigg’n hell .... :crazy:
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Glad someone said it ...................I was getting very very close.
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Re: How do You run Cold and Slow?

Post by Hügelwilli »

cayars wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:46 pm I have no issue saying "units of methanol per unit of pure alcohol" might rise in tails but what is that really saying?
It says, if you end the hearts later, your spirit diluted to drinking strength will contain more methanol. In my opinion "units of methanol per unit of pure alcohol" is much more meaningful than for example mg methanol per liter.
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Re: How do You run Cold and Slow?

Post by cayars »

Yummyrum wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:53 am
Cayers , have you in the last three months since you joined suddenly got a plated still and had time to run it to the point of reasonable competence so you can make such bold statements ........ or is this yet another regurgitated opinion of yours that you have come up with ?

You will get much more respect around here if you just shut the hell up until you have some real experience of your own to share rather than just commenting on everything as if you know it all .

Frigg’n hell .... :crazy:
Here we go again,
I have multiple stills including pot, reflux and flutes, from 2 to 4 inches. I've been distilling for over a decade for neutrals but just recently have gotten into making whiskey and AGs. I mostly run a pot still in my basement on the stove (direct fired) but can run the others out in the garage with propane. But that uses an unmodded keg and is a pain to use. No water in the garage, no heat or air conditioning, ferments done in the basement. My basement has water, stove, TV, heat and air conditioning so the pot still gets most of my use. Working on getting a nice electric boiler so I can use all my nice toys inside any time I want.

With that said, I've worked professionally on ethanol & methanol distillation and other fuels for ExxonMobil on recipe and process control (running large commercial fuel distillation systems around the world). This includes having looked at thousands of gs-mc reports.

I'd certainly think that counts as "real experience" by any standard you might want to set.

This forum seems to place a lot of importance on join date and has an elitist mentality by many of it's members at times. I'm thinking of taking your advice to just "shut the hell up" and go elsewhere.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by The Baker »

Lots of knots in lots of knickers.

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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by bluc »

lampshade wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:15 am
Jimbo wrote:Note also methanol content in AG batches is very very low to begin with.
Let me state the obvious, to help newbs like me. Tails can be blended or re-cycled for whiskey, since the methanol content is low for whiskey. This is not true of fruit distillates, which are high in methanol, especially in the tails, as documented in the referenced study.

Also: For fruit distillates, the fruit flavor is in the heads. For whiskey, the grain flavor is in the tails.
I agree and find it interesting that whiskey(who like tails in their spirit) say low methanol in tails. And fruit distillers(who like to use acetates in the heads say methanol is in tails) Who funded the studies and how much money did they have?? All I know is when I cut heads and tails from grape/grain/ sugar washs and drink hearts I get almost zero hangover. And I agree with lampshade's post "best flavour is in the hearts". My 2c....
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by Berserk »

bluc wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:57 pm
lampshade wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:15 am
Jimbo wrote:Note also methanol content in AG batches is very very low to begin with.
Let me state the obvious, to help newbs like me. Tails can be blended or re-cycled for whiskey, since the methanol content is low for whiskey. This is not true of fruit distillates, which are high in methanol, especially in the tails, as documented in the referenced study.

Also: For fruit distillates, the fruit flavor is in the heads. For whiskey, the grain flavor is in the tails.
I agree and find it interesting that whiskey(who like tails in their spirit) say low methanol in tails. And fruit distillers(who like to use acetates in the heads say methanol is in tails) Who funded the studies and how much money did they have?? All I know is when I cut heads and tails from grape/grain/ sugar washs and drink hearts I get almost zero hangover. And I agree with lampshade's post "best flavour is in the hearts". My 2c....
Grain spirits are low in methanol in heads, hearts and tails because grain doesn’t contain pectin which turns into methanol during fermentation.

Fruit spirits aren't low in metanol since fruit contain a lot of pectin. According to the study methanol concentrates in the tails if you compare methanol content to alcohol content, and the lowest concentration of ethanol is in the tails. The largest concentration of methanol in regards to just volume of distillate is still the same, i.e. highest in the heads.

So there's no opposition between the two statements. What matters is how you calculate the methanol conventration.

Oh, and who funded the studies: the European Commission.
How much money do they have: 148 billion euros yearly budget.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by mark_m »

I realize this topic has been exhaustively argued, but I only saw this topic yesterday, and so I want to see if I can set the record straight concerning this EU study with respect to some misconceptions about methanol behavior, so I have attached a PDF with my research on this topic.

Mark
Ethanol-Methanol Curves.pdf
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by NormandieStill »

I was looking for some info on making a sugar-free sloe gin (because I made too much and now there's not enough room in the jar for the sugar!) and I stumbled across this blinder of a quote on a forum seemingly occupied by lots of people making home-made liqueurs from bought spirits.
Originally posted by Caro
Obviously everone here is BUYING the original spirit as it would be illegal to distill your own alcohol. But hypothetically speaking, would it be difficult to do?
In theory, no. In practice if you get the distilling temperature too low it just wouldn't vapourise the fermented mash properly and if you get it too high then there is a considerable danger of taking off, not just the ethyl alcohol but, methyl alcohol, which can send you permanently blind or even kill you. So definitely a no-no and not to be recommended.
I thought this was special, not just for the magic boiling point myth, but also for the inversion of methanol and ethanol boiling points meaning they suggested holding the temp low in order to keep the methanol in the pot.
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