Plastic codes

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Tater
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Tater »

Cant say one way or another . What a person wants to use is up to them.If there is one that is safe for all different stuff that is in the distilling vapor and liquid that travels through it havent seen it posted with documentation . Thats what this forum is for. . thats why we have rule .8. These forums take a very strong negative view on the usage of plastics and synthetics in distilling. It simply is not safe to use in any area of hobby distilling (however HPDE buckets are acceptable for fermentation.) There simply are too many types of plastics and lack of reliable information about plastics, for us to reliably advocate their use anywhere in the distillation apparatus. Also, from past posting history, this topic seems to quickly boil down into an almost religious flame war. Thus we simply will not put up with it, and posts about any form of plastic use will be edited, deleted or locked. There is as forum for proven info for or against any material (material/safety.)
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by der wo »

C2-H5-Oh wrote:Question: Distillate tubing on my new Russian still, which was prolly PP, I recently replaced with high temp HDPE tubing rated for 100% propanol from McMaster Carr. Tube length is 18".
Is this considered reasonably safe? I'm currenntly sourcing SS and Cu tubing as well, but feel OK with the HDPE. What do you think?
Rated for 100% propanol? Do you distill propanol? Anyway, rated at what temperature? Probably 20°C. When you google "technical resistant chart plastics" you will find many proofs that many plastics are safe for ethanol at 20°C. But there are a few charts with also ethanol at boiling temp. And here you see, all have problems. Except PTFE, EPDM and perhaps silicone. And PTFE is the only one of the three which can stand also the foreshohots. The other two have problems here even at room temp. There is no other plastic except PTFE which can stand a mixture of ethanol with acetaldehyde and ethylacetate at boiling temp. Maybe we can discuss about something like plastic funnels and hoses to fill bottles (but I fear, the mods will stop us), but not about plastics (except PTFE) in the vapor or hot product path.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by homebrewer007 »

Very nice post. I would like to weigh in and add my two cents on one container though. The FOOD GRADE PET, food grade being the operative word here is appropriate for alcoholic beverages, and is common place in many homebrewer's and home wine maker's inventory. They are a relatively new product as the industry is concerned, and they were designed as an alternative to the typical 6.5 gallon food grade bucket with grommeted lid we normally start out using. Many brewers, wine makers, and distillers would use the 6.5 gallon and 5 gallon glass carboys because they were glass. They would not impart any off flavors during fermentation and furthermore were less likely to allow oxygen absorption into solution like plastic does after a long conditioning time. With a proper fitting stopper and air lock the glass carboys are air tight, though still subject to light penetration. UV even from incandescent lighting would create a chemical reaction in the product mostly reacting with hops, but also with dissolved sugars which would create a skunky aroma in many beers. This holds true for any fermented beverage as we later learned.

Glass carboys are also very heavy and are subject to breaking or stress fractures around the neck of the vessel. To combat this a company created the Better Bottle which was soon improved upon and sold by Northern Brewer as the Big Mouth Bubbler. It is a PET 6 gallon plastic carboy which is food grade up to 180* F. It is still clear however, so it should still be kept covered. I personally use this container even to this day for long term wine conditioning (3-6 months) and after conducting lab tests the amount of O2 in solution is 1/4 what I had in the food grade buckets and about the same as what I had in the glass carboys.

The PET bottles share a downside with the food grade plastic buckets however. If they get scratched they are deemed pretty much useless. One little scratch on the inside of the plastic will harbor wild yeast which you will never be able to kill. There is a specific brush which is a soft PVC material created for cleaning these containers. The brush along with hot water and PBW will clean the PET bottle very well. I do recommend to my customers that the bottles be discarded and replaced about once a year though.

I recommend these fermenters to my customers regularly for those looking for a cost effective alternative to the glass carboy and something for more long term storage than the plastic bucket.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Pikey »

Ok hb - we have no issue with any food grade plastic being used for fermentation and storage of low abv washes etc.
It is the high abv side we strictly apply our "NO PLASTIC" rule to. For some reason PTFE seems to have been granted an exception.

Are you claiming this new "PET" will withstand boiling ethanol, methanol and all the aldehydes etc we see in our distillations at high percentages - of sometimes 90% abv without leaching anything into the product ?

If so we shall require some significant evidence and test results.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by still_stirrin »

Pikey wrote:Ok hb...Are you claiming this new "PET" will withstand boiling ethanol, methanol and all the aldehydes etc we see in our distillations at high percentages - of sometimes 90% abv without leaching anything into the product ?

If so we shall require some significant evidence and test results.
MSDS and distilling industry acceptance and usage.

Federal regulators (inspectors) only allow the use of tested and approved equipment and materials in commercial distilleries. That is our (hobby) benchmark here. Other sites may have different rules, but the "no plastics" rule is enforced here.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Just to stir up some shit, there is an interesting thread in the ADI forums that suggest that PTFE tape isn't the greatest for 95% GNS. But they're stirring shit there as well. Opinions are like, well you know.

http://adiforums.com/index.php?/topic/8 ... of-rubber/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by still_stirrin »

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:Just to stir up some shit, there is an interesting thread in the ADI forums that suggest that PTFE tape isn't the greatest for 95% GNS. But they're stirring shit there as well. Opinions are like, well you know.

http://adiforums.com/index.php?/topic/8 ... of-rubber/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Interesting discussion.

The last post suggest that PTFE (and other flouro-polymers) are still preferred when used in high purity applications.

So indeed, the rumble is just loose bowels in the making.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by der wo »

"Look here the chart says..." "But the chart doesn't say at what percentage..." "...and temperature...". adiforum 2017 looks worse than homedistiller 2005. Unbelievable.
It reminds me, that in my country there is an internet forum for farmers. Farmers often have a licence to distill their own fruits here and to sell the spirits. Looking at all the basic questions about distilling they discuss there, scares me often. Unbelievable that they are allowed to sell their product...
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Re: Plastic codes

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der wo wrote:
"Look here the chart says..." "But the chart doesn't say at what percentage..." "...and temperature...". adiforum 2017 looks worse than homedistiller 2005. Unbelievable.
It reminds me, that in my country there is an internet forum for farmers. Farmers often have a licence to distill their own fruits here and to sell the spirits. Looking at all the basic questions about distilling they discuss there, scares me often. Unbelievable that they are allowed to sell their product...
I have been to a couple Apple wine festivals on farms in Germany where they set up picnic tables on their grass fields. Lots of fun, never been to one on distilled spirits.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by der wo »

If someone here is able to read German:
https://www.lgl.bayern.de/lebensmittel/ ... tuosen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.lgl.bayern.de/lebensmittel/ ... tuosen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
They tested 700 products of small distilleries and were able to detect fraud or health issues at 1/3 of the selled products.
For example asbestos (from filter material), styrol (glass fiber container), clear visible copper particles...
and provable rotten fruits and fraud like selling plum brandy, which is mainly illegal distilled neutral alcohol.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by homebrewer007 »

I completely understand the concern of high proof alcohol in any type of plastic, and I'd never advocate for heating any type of plastic fermenter above 70* F, mostly because fermentation should never be above an ambieant temp of 70* F with the rare exception of a few Belgian yeast strains. My argument was strictly for primary fermentation pre-distillation. It is completely acceptable to ferment in a sanitized Better Bottle. I personally am not a fan of anything plastic in the brew house, and will use nothing but stainless conicals with the exception of wine making. For many just entering the hobby however, the Better Bottle is a very acceptable fermenter to get up to 10%. After all in the wine industry we often see 13% as a standard in many styles. The Better Bottle was created and even advocated for by the BA for racking to secondary.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Saltbush Bill »

homebrewer007 wrote:mostly because fermentation should never be above an ambieant temp of 70* F with the rare exception of a few Belgian yeast strains.
You obviously don't know anything about Rum fermentations.
Do a bit of research and have a look at what temps some of the Rum distilleries ferment at ....I think your 70f theory will be blow out of the water.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by stevea »

There is a LOT of FUD wrt plastics & toxicity. *SOME* plastics will deform and soften in the presence of certain solvents. Some will deteriorate in the presence of extremely strong acids or bases. Any fear of "toxicity" is related to the "plasticizes" used when forming the plastics.

So it's important to understand that the plasticizers may be soluble and may leach-out into product. The other basic bit of chemistry one should understand is that, polar substances are soluble in polar solvents, and water is the strongest polar solvent. Non-polar substances are soluble in non-polar solvents like fats or alkenes (common in kerosene, gasoline, ... hexane, ...). [aside: ethanol has both polar and non-polar properties, but it's a crummy polar solvent]. The FDA tests (and similar regs for Europe(EMA)) specify that the plastic (the process, not each piece) be subjected to super-heated water and a select non-polar solvent for extended periods of time, then the solvent analyzed for the presence of plasticizers.

If something isn't soluble in hot water or the select non-polar solvent, then it' simply not soluble or not present - period. There is no magical ingredient in wash or distillate that will do any better at leaching plasticizers. So FDA plastics are food-safe for the designated uses.

I still hesitate to use plastics b/c I simply don't trust certain countries to actually follow the FDA or EMA regs. A lot (perhaps most) plastics are made in and for local markets in North America and Europe. Lab gear (like silicon gaskets or delrin or PTFE labware) are very likely trustworthy since these are used in labs and the contact product are subjected to HPLC & GC analysis and contamination would show up quickly and ruin the vendors reputation. Beware of the source.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by stevea »

Bushman wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:14 am
der wo wrote:
"Look here the chart says..." "But the chart doesn't say at what percentage..." "...and temperature...". adiforum 2017 looks worse than homedistiller 2005. Unbelievable.
...
That poster on adiforum seems to have ignored the difference between the gasket being safe for ethanol contact, chemical resistance (the gasket still works) vs the gasket being safe for food/ethanol contact (the beverage is clearly ruined and likely dangerous). Those are two very different issues. I'nm not sure what the poster meant by 'rectified' to 40%ABV from 95%ABV. Seems like dilution where fusels would become misty.

I'm still an adi forum member, despite forsaking commercial production of beverage, but I've seen several posts there that frighten me. Ppl who want to experiment with different wood contact, for example, without any conception than many woods are toxic or contain severe allergens, There are some bright folk there, but also a lot of seat-of-the-pantsers who don't know enough to consult an FDA GRAS of methods book.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Lblamboy »

Is the safety concern with plastic directly related to the ABV in question? I'm about to run some Apple cider in a carboy (no sugars added, so relatively low ABV), but was debating whether I can age it in the plastic bottles it came in (code 5 stuff) rather than glass. I'm in California, where hard liquor is sold in grocery stores, and a quick perusal of the spirits aisle showed that roughly half is sold in glass and half in plastic (though I didn't check, I suspect it was mostly PET)...that makes me slightly more comfortable thinking about putting lower ABV cider in plastic...or should I not?!?
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by still_stirrin »

If you’re gonna “age” the brandy, the BEST solution is in a wooden cask/barrel. But, as an alternate that would work well, I suggest aging it in 2 liter Mason jars. And you can put a couple of chunks of toasted oak in the jar (I use barrel stave chunks).

I would NOT consider any plastic or PET containers for a spirit even if it was only 40%ABV or less. Without doubt, anything higher could cause some flavor (and toxin) implications.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by zed255 »

Ss, you usually give solid considered advice but this time you seemed to not read the post you appeared to be responding to. He was asking about hard cider, not brandy.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by still_stirrin »

zed255 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 4:53 pm Ss, you usually give solid considered advice but this time you seemed to not read the post you appeared to be responding to. He was asking about hard cider, not brandy.
Lblamboy wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:29 pm… I'm about to run some Apple cider in a carboy (no sugars added, so relatively low ABV), but was debating whether I can age it in the plastic bottles it came in (code 5 stuff) rather than glass…
Maybe you’re right zed. But, I read “run it” and “age it” and interpreted it as distilling the cider and aging it as a brandy, especially since this is a hobby distillers website.

Still, I wouldn’t use plastic. I use glass carboys for fermentation. And I use glass and barrels to age. For anything I brew, if I’m going to store it as a beer (or other fermented beverage), I would use Cornelius kegs (I have a whole posse of them).

The ONLY time I’d use a PET bottle would be if I was going to freeze jack something, which I don’t do anymore now that I have a still.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to mislead the poster with my reply. I just wanted to give some experienced advice.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by NZChris »

Lblamboy wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:29 pm Is the safety concern with plastic directly related to the ABV in question? I'm about to run some Apple cider in a carboy (no sugars added, so relatively low ABV), but was debating whether I can age it in the plastic bottles it came in (code 5 stuff) rather than glass. I'm in California, where hard liquor is sold in grocery stores, and a quick perusal of the spirits aisle showed that roughly half is sold in glass and half in plastic (though I didn't check, I suspect it was mostly PET)...that makes me slightly more comfortable thinking about putting lower ABV cider in plastic...or should I not?!?
The codes only apply to single use. If you are recycling a container, check out whether or not it is suitable using the manufacturer of the material's website rather than fishing for moral support from the net.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Lblamboy »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:11 pm
zed255 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 4:53 pm Ss, you usually give solid considered advice but this time you seemed to not read the post you appeared to be responding to. He was asking about hard cider, not brandy.
Lblamboy wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:29 pm… I'm about to run some Apple cider in a carboy (no sugars added, so relatively low ABV), but was debating whether I can age it in the plastic bottles it came in (code 5 stuff) rather than glass…
Maybe you’re right zed. But, I read “run it” and “age it” and interpreted it as distilling the cider and aging it as a brandy, especially since this is a hobby distillers website.

Still, I wouldn’t use plastic. I use glass carboys for fermentation. And I use glass and barrels to age. For anything I brew, if I’m going to store it as a beer (or other fermented beverage), I would use Cornelius kegs (I have a whole posse of them).

The ONLY time I’d use a PET bottle would be if I was going to freeze jack something, which I don’t do anymore now that I have a still.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to mislead the poster with my reply. I just wanted to give some experienced advice.
ss
And I appreciate the insight...FWIW, I meant "run" the fermentation and "age" was on the order of a few weeks/month, but your points are all well-taken.

Based on what I'm hearing, I started this fermentation on a carboy, and will look for other post-fermentation aging solutions...maybe just racking to a different carboy for a month. I had originally been considering doing the fermentation in the original juice container and/or possibly aging for a few weeks in that same plastic container...but it sounds like even being low abv, I'm better off safe than sorry on avoiding even the food grade packaging this stuff originally shipped in.
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