Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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thecroweater
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by thecroweater »

Got a link for that video? Something is not being told, interesting they give the measurements in weight and not volume. The thing about methanol consumed with ethanol is while the body is breaking down ethanol which it will do more readily it is unable to break methanol down to formaldehyde meaning for the most part it should pass through your system without much chance of forming toxins. The actual ratio of methanol to ethanol would need to be off the charts high and that would be virtually impossible in any normal grain spirit and not a lot more likely in any other unadulterated spirit.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by Pikey »

thecroweater wrote:Got a link for that video? Something is not being told, interesting they give the measurements in weight and not volume...............
If it's the same one, the guy was a youngster weighed 80 Kilos and drank 2 litres at 80% abv !

We concluded he would be way past dead by that time !

But I can't find it - I know Kareltje was involved in teh thread - but yes we definitely need teh link to the Allegations ! :roll:
Last edited by Pikey on Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by NZChris »

He was probably referring to this idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DQUrg0Yhu4
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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NZChris wrote:He was probably referring to this idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DQUrg0Yhu4
Yep - that's the one we were talking about !

"After drinking 2 Litres 80% abv moonshine in 2 hours - he thought he was 'a bit more drunk than normal' ! "

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

[Edit - clearly the D-Head shown spouting this rubbish - on the vid has never even drunk a 70 cl bottle (a "fifth" or thereabouts I think) of even 40% in his entire life ! - This guy is supposed to have imbibed 6 times that amount in 2 hours and felt " a bit more drunk than normal ! :roll: ]
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by HDNB »

when i was in high school there was a kid that tipped the scales at about 475. he would chug a fifth and look for more. A lesser man would be dead.

co- incidentally this guy did die at 28 from complications of being 600+ lbs.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Ok so this turkey drank a stupid amount of alcohol in a stupid amount of time with virtually no cuts, still doesn't explain how he produced enough to be potentially dangerous or how it stayed in his system while the ethanol did not. I smell a red herring stashed somewhere
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by Pikey »

thecroweater wrote:Ok so this turkey drank a stupid amount of alcohol in a stupid amount of time with virtually no cuts, still doesn't explain how he produced enough to be potentially dangerous or how it stayed in his system while the ethanol did not. I smell a red herring stashed somewhere
I think the point we are making is that the ridiculously overstated amount of "methanol" is irrelevant - It couldn't possibly produce the stated problems because the ethanol had
killed him well before the end of the first litre ! :)

[Edit - maybe the same thing as your "red herring" ? ]
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Ethanol is eliminated faster than methanol, so if an idiot who drinks too much methanol is also too stupid to keep his ethanol level up until his methanol is down to a safe level, he's in trouble. Given the ridiculous amount of his 160 proof moonshine that CW drank, it wouldn't have had to have a very high % of methanol to get him into trouble.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by HDNB »

NZChris wrote: methanol to get him into trouble.
2 litre 80 proof in 2 hours? he'd be too dead for the methanol to bother him.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by NZChris »

It is only what he said he drank. Also, had he drunk any the previous day? Methanol has a half life of a couple of days, so he may have already had some in his system before he started.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by Saltbush Bill »

HDNB wrote:2 litre 80 proof in 2 hours? he'd be too dead for the methanol to bother him.
It wasnt 80 proof ..it was 160 proof or 80% abv That's about how I'm looking at it too.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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I'm thinking "video brought to you by the Teetotalers for an Alcohol Free World with donations from International Distillers Inc.". Reefer Madness type propaganda.

My first thought was, this guy got a still a week before the party and instead of doing a turbo yeast sugar wash, which probably came with the kit, since that is kinda what they say, he goes all grain but they say he had brewed beer so, let's let them have that.

Let's say he did the newb mistake of wanting to get all the etho. So he turned 32L of 5%ABV beer (minus hops) into 2 L of 80% ABV.

A beer high in methanol, from what I googled, would be around 30 mg/l. So even if his greed was unchecked: 32L @ 30mg/L = 960mg. That is nowhere near the 25.4 grams claimed in the video. It isn't even 1 gram.

Even if he had a 100L boiler and took the first 2 L of fores and heads to take to the party, and the methanol was actually there (this is the "methanol concentrate in the tails" thread after all), it would still only be around 3 grams.

The maths just ain't there.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Bagasso wrote:The maths just ain't there.
Which is why how much of it he had drunk in the previous days have to be a part of any calculations/speculations.

CW doesn't say how he selected his 'cut', how much he drunk before that day, how he treated his yeast, wash, abvs, etc,. He didn't even know enough about distilling to know that drinking 160 proof was a really bad idea.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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NZChris wrote:CW doesn't say how he selected his 'cut', how much he drunk before that day, how he treated his yeast, wash, abvs, etc,. He didn't even know enough about distilling to know that drinking 160 proof was a really bad idea.
Sure, but none of that matters because even in the worst case scenario he couldn't have fermented, distilled (even with the worst cuts), and drank enough, for methanol to have been the problem.

Seems to me that methanol is only a problem when someone substitutes methanol denatured ethanol on the black market, like other drugs, although it is something we are not suppose to talk about, but it makes the point. That always seems to be the plot of the "deaths due to alcohol" stories on the news.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Bagasso wrote:Sure, but none of that matters because even in the worst case scenario he couldn't have fermented, distilled (even with the worst cuts), and drank enough, for methanol to have been the problem.
It would be nice if that was true, but I've seen a couple of examples where extreme consumption of moonshine followed by abstinence have resulted in methanol related problems. At least one of them, multiple deaths, in Australia, has been discussed here earlier, the autopsies were very interesting reading.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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I'm really starting to think CW stands for cods wollop, ya can generally smell hot wet horse shit before swallowing it. Just enough facts thrown in to make it sound legitimate, good one mister revinuer man :lol:
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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I think CW's story is true, but that it misses out a lot of the important details about how he created the perfect storm that landed him in ER.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Yeah I think the whole story is probably bullshit from start to finish, just a complete fabrication used to emphasise an aversion to home distilled spirits. Why not fill in the details so the case can be checked out to give it some (flimsy) credence? My guess because it is a crock and a run through the alleged version of events makes the story about as believable as the Easter bunny. Our ATO (tax office put out some similar scare monger video a few years back that was so ridiculous I was embarrassed for them.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by Pikey »

thecroweater wrote:Yeah I think the whole story is probably bullshit from start to finish, just a complete fabrication used to emphasise an aversion to home distilled spirits. Why not fill in the details so the case can be checked out to give it some (flimsy) credence? My guess because it is a crock and a run through the alleged version of events makes the story about as believable as the Easter bunny. Our ATO (tax office put out some similar scare monger video a few years back that was so ridiculous I was embarrassed for them.
Do you think they actually Know they're talking crud - or do you think they actually believe it ?
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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NZChris wrote:It would be nice if that was true, but I've seen a couple of examples where extreme consumption of moonshine followed by abstinence have resulted in methanol related problems. At least one of them, multiple deaths, in Australia, has been discussed here earlier, the autopsies were very interesting reading.
Again, that australian story included mislabeled containers, IIRC.

While a huge run, or saved up feints, with the wrong cuts might result in methanol poisoning, we have to take the rest of the details of the story into account. First and only run (DON'T TRY IT, NOT EVEN ONCE!!!), commercial kit and beer maker with at least some brewing experience.

Lastly, if he did just a single run, methanol concentrates in the tails. OK maybe the title isn't dead on but methanol doesn't concentrate in the fores as common lore would have us believe. Even Manu's lab results had some in his vodka. Even had it in his good results, after a double run and, I'm assuming, good cuts.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Bagasso wrote:
NZChris wrote:It would be nice if that was true, but I've seen a couple of examples where extreme consumption of moonshine followed by abstinence have resulted in methanol related problems. At least one of them, multiple deaths, in Australia, has been discussed here earlier, the autopsies were very interesting reading.
Again, that australian story included mislabeled containers, IIRC.
The one I was thinking of was at Collarenebri, NSW, not the lads in Qld. It involved serious alcohol abuse over an extended period, followed by sudden abstinence. The moonshine was only a contributing factor in their deaths and the woman charged with supplying it was fined, not jailed.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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NZChris wrote:The one I was thinking of was at Collarenebri, NSW, not the lads in Qld. It involved serious alcohol abuse over an extended period, followed by sudden abstinence. The moonshine was only a contributing factor in their deaths and the woman charged with supplying it was fined, not jailed.
You know what is missing from that story? A still.

Sounds like other stories of people substituting and passing off denatured alcohol for shine.
Mary was trading in expensive homebrew, or moonshine — deadly concoctions of methanol-laced alcohol that smelt like methylated spirits and tasted like liquorice.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Bagasso wrote:You know what is missing from that story? A still.
I don't come to that conclusion from reading this...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-22/c ... ne/8045018
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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NZChris wrote:I don't come to that conclusion from reading this...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-22/c ... ne/8045018
That is exactly what I'm talking about. They don't have a picture of a still. The two photos shown, that police used as evidence, are just bottles.

The article touches on a gap in the law regarding small stills but don't say they found one on the scene.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Pikey wrote:
thecroweater wrote:Yeah I think the whole story is probably bullshit from start to finish, just a complete fabrication used to emphasise an aversion to home distilled spirits. Why not fill in the details so the case can be checked out to give it some (flimsy) credence? My guess because it is a crock and a run through the alleged version of events makes the story about as believable as the Easter bunny. Our ATO (tax office put out some similar scare monger video a few years back that was so ridiculous I was embarrassed for them.
Do you think they actually Know they're talking crud - or do you think they actually believe it ?
or do you think they actually believe it ?

we are talking politicians here...(so without being political) i read a quote recently : XXXXXXXS always say they are open to listening to other peoples ideas and views...and then they are surprised to find out that people actually have other ideas and views....

so ya, i think they actually believe it. And i also think there ain't no way in hell you be able to tell 'em different.

AND 80% ABV??? you'd be too hammered after the half litre to even find the other litre and a half. holy shit!

back on topic (or at least closer to) I had some of my 4 x distilled neutral tested on a GC it came back "no discernible peaks" and 0.0 parts methanol. it was ethanol and water. And i ain't doing shit all else than what you fellas are doing. wheat, enzymes, water and yeast...and boiled the shit out of it.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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Yes very tragic, my own children are party Koori and I've have attended my share of funerals where alcohol has been a contributing factor in a premature death. Although they do rabbit on about the evil of stilling it does not mention Ms Miller's still or that she ever owned one and for the media here that would be about unheard of for such a story. We have this ghastly product here past of as moonshine that is in fact not distilled but an ultra high ABV brewed "spirit/sugarwine" these kits are a pre-flavoured mix to taste like say bourbon and cola rum and cola etc. Back home I personally know three lads that ended up in hospital drinking that junk. This horrible shit is brought to us from our good friends at still spirits via a yeast called SS Turbo Extra or kits containing it and with the right conditions can be brewed up to damn near 30% but is absolutely shocking and so bad they do not recommend you attempt to distill it. I have no way of knowing if this was the product in question but it reads like it likely was and having tasted this krud along with seeing some friend the day after drinking it I would hazard to guess that garbage could seriously harm tougher blokes than me.

Edit: posted since several posts above.
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

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HDNB wrote:back on topic (or at least closer to) I had some of my 4 x distilled neutral tested on a GC it came back "no discernible peaks" and 0.0 parts methanol. it was ethanol and water. And i ain't doing shit all else than what you fellas are doing. wheat, enzymes, water and yeast...and boiled the shit out of it.
Photonic got pretty low methanol with Turbos and an airstill in their results, even in the "fores".
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Re: Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study

Post by SherrodBrown »

I am not as tolerant now . I get drunk from around 10-20 ml of 80abv.
In my youth I could drink 20 cl. It is still 10 times less than this guy.At the time I had a. very high tolerance and 30 pr 40 cl would probably have killed me as I felt back then.
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Post by cayars »

That's a great quote. :)
I'm ALWAYS up for learning something new and just started to read this thread and the main study linked, but I'm already finding what seems like flaws from my perspective. The devil is in the details and just like polls can be bent to show what you want.

Anyone who reads some of my posts, know I don't like some of the "jar cut diagrams" as I've mentioned they do not show heads, hearts and tails correctly and will say those graphs don't show tails components in the early jars, nor heads components in the tails collection jars. Those graphs seem to indicate there is only smearing between heads to hearts, then pure hearts, then smearing of hearts to tails. NOT SO at all. EVERYTHING is always smeared across the whole run. Methanol will be present in the first drop to the last drop but in different proportions across the run, Ethanol will be present from the first drop to the last drop in different proportions to the total of the drop volume.

I believe when most of us talk about percent of something we mean the percent to the whole, not a percent of one substance to another unless it's specifically mentioned. So for example if you show methanol levels increasing in the tails section is that a percent based on the total volume or as a comparison to the level of ethanol collected in that same volume?

So I think we'll all agree the ethanol drops as the run progresses and our proof and tralle hydrometers show us this. But if we say methanol levels are increasing it's IMPORTANT to differentiate if this means to total volume of the sample or to a proof gallon. Put another way I can say levels went up 500% in tails but what does that mean? Is there really 5 times more component X at the end vs the start or is it compared to Y which has been dropping the whole time and what we really mean is X isn't dropping as much as Y but it still far lower overall.

For sake of clarity if we assume Z substance doesn't fluctuate and the same amount is CONSTANT coming out of the still while every other component is shifting we would normally view this on a graph as being a straight line. But now if we show the data differently and compare Z to the output level of Ethanol and view this in a graph the line will start low at the start and get higher as we go because we are comparing it to something that is constantly dropping.

I have no issue saying "units of methanol per unit of pure alcohol" might rise in tails but what is that really saying? I know of no distiller who would care about looking at it that way. What they care about is the amount of methanol found per sample analyzed.

If you look at the raw data, it's definitely concentrated toward the start of the run and drops, just like ethanol but at a different rate.

Don't base assumptions on data that is not understood or shown using "slight of hand" reporting.
Last edited by cayars on Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How do You run Cold and Slow?

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

это какой-то блядский пиздец sorry, i have here words no more :wtf:

har druckit för mycket
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