Make lethal methanol concentration

This hobby is fun & enjoyable, but it is not tiddlywinks. Be safe!

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
engunear
Swill Maker
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Couch

Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by engunear »

Reading an article about some people dying in Indonesia from drinking bootleg alcohol, I wondered whether it is possible, with a just fermenter and a still, to make a lethal batch, and if so, how would you do it?

Even with a 2m fractionating column, I've never seen boiling point depression more than 0.5 degrees, which suggests low methanol concentration in ferments.

One does not hear about people dying from drinking non-distilled booze, and we all know a still does not change alcohols around.

I've also tried to find data on LD50 of methanol vs ethanol to find out what methanol concentration would kill you on an average bender. I've never been quite happy with my answers but they seem to be closer to 25% than 1-2%.

So my hypothesis is that people die when people add industrial methanol to their spirit, rather than anything one could actually do with a fermenter and a still.

Any thoughts people?
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
User avatar
Shiny Coke
Swill Maker
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:42 pm
Location: Over the hills and far away

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Shiny Coke »

I wonder if its more to do with improper and unsafe running procedures (plastics, condensing through a Bobcat radiator, etc etc) as well as greedy producers cutting the ethanol with less expensive liquids like methanol, rubbing alchohol, antifreeze and so on to increase profitability.
Sad either way.
User avatar
Mikey-moo
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:54 am

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Mikey-moo »

Part of the required reading is the parent site... it has a large section on this... http://homedistiller.org/intro/methanol/methanol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Best place to start for newbies - click here - Courtesy of Cranky :-)

If you have used this site to save money by making your own top quality booze at home then please consider donating a couple of dollars to help keep this site running. Cheers!
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by NZChris »

http://news.sky.com/story/1104625/austr ... rew-deaths

It is possible, Bill Lynam knows how to do it. I'd like to see the coroner's report on this one. My guess is that the boys grabbed the foreshot bottle, but that is only a guess.
User avatar
pfshine
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3106
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Vegas

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by pfshine »

Hell even straight fores shouldn't do that. Unless you collected all your fores for a long time then did an all fores run and then drank the fore shots of that run.
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
User avatar
Mikey-moo
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:54 am

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Mikey-moo »

NZChris wrote:http://news.sky.com/story/1104625/austr ... rew-deaths

It is possible, Bill Lynam knows how to do it. I'd like to see the coroner's report on this one. My guess is that the boys grabbed the foreshot bottle, but that is only a guess.
From the article wrote:Eye damage and blindness is one of the key consequences of methanol poisoning. However, Mr Lynam says Joshua's eyesight appears to be fine. He is being looked after by family and friends.
Sounds to me like this was just plain old alcohol poisoning. We don't know the proof of the liquor involved and two litres might not be much to some people here, but two litres at 80 proof would probably put me in hospital - give that much spirit to a couple of young inexperienced kids and it could kill.
Best place to start for newbies - click here - Courtesy of Cranky :-)

If you have used this site to save money by making your own top quality booze at home then please consider donating a couple of dollars to help keep this site running. Cheers!
User avatar
skow69
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by skow69 »

I think you're spot on, engun. It's liquor made poisonous in the service of horrific greed.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by NZChris »

Mikey-moo wrote:Sounds to me like this was just plain old alcohol poisoning. We don't know the proof of the liquor involved and two litres might not be much to some people here, but two litres at 80 proof would probably put me in hospital - give that much spirit to a couple of young inexperienced kids and it could kill.
A neighbor was quoted as saying Bill was making biofuel. Without the coroner's report, it's guesswork what it was the boys drank and how much. I'd sure like to know what happened and how.

If the report is out already but not published, I'd like to know why it isn't easily available so that other distillers and their friends and family members can benefit from it.
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by thecroweater »

most of these guys making biofuel buy pure methanol.3 lads in QLD died and another nearly did under those circumstances a couple of years back
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by NZChris »

thecroweater wrote:most of these guys making biofuel buy pure methanol.3 lads in QLD died and another nearly did under those circumstances a couple of years back
In that case, it could be that the methanol that killed the boys wasn't made by the father using his still and that the media and police have unfairly put the blame on grappa and moonshine.
User avatar
skow69
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by skow69 »

Wouldn't be the first time that happened, all right.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by HDNB »

NZChris wrote:
thecroweater wrote:most of these guys making biofuel buy pure methanol.3 lads in QLD died and another nearly did under those circumstances a couple of years back
In that case, it could be that the methanol that killed the boys wasn't made by the father using his still and that the media and police have unfairly put the blame on grappa and moonshine.
media puppets in the service of the government propaganda machine? unthinkable.
i did read a very brief report on the QLD incident that mentioned the biodiesel production, but like the rest of you i can't find the final outcome, whether the guy that was charged was convicted of a crime or what the COD was, or the source of methanol :problem:
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by thecroweater »

Yep it was pure methanol from a 20 ltr cube. Mostly when the truth comes out its a police report on the ABC news web page, you will never find a retraction or the truth with Snyder of the commercial media outlets. Was the same with the two guys in Tasmania that died from the white moonshine, turned out to be opium milk they overdosed on but the only place you could find that little gem was squirreled away in ABC online.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Saltbush Bill »

thecroweater wrote:Was the same with the two guys in Tasmania that died from the white moonshine, turned out to be opium milk they overdosed on but the only place you could find that little gem was squirreled away in ABC online.
I always thought there was a lot more to that story Crow, thanks for the update. :thumbup:
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by NZChris »

So here's me speculating on how it's possible for Joe Bloggs with a still and some grape pomace to kill his kids with poor fermenting and distilling skills, and all the time the poison had been bought in 20l containers that had FA to do with moonshine.
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by thecroweater »

Correct :thumbup:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
Hound Dog
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3002
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:45 pm
Location: Hounds Hollow, VA

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Hound Dog »

Yea, kids will drink anything these days. Shine is the least of the worries. I heard a blip in the news the other day about kids getting drunk on hand sanitizer. Heard of washing a kids mouth out with soap but never knew they liked it!
LM Still Operating Instructions
Cranky's New Distiller's Advice
Using Google Search

Drinking Rum before noon makes you a Pirate not an alcoholic.
User avatar
engunear
Swill Maker
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Couch

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by engunear »

have unfairly put the blame on grappa and moonshine.
... thats my exact concern. Lot of people on this site live in places where the hobby is illegal. And bullshit like this makes it hard to make it change legislation.

We are a pretty safe bunch, stories like these, and about the Kentucky explosion (what a piece of crap metalwork that was, and they left it unattended) affect us.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Kareltje »

engunear wrote:Reading an article about some people dying in Indonesia from drinking bootleg alcohol, I wondered whether it is possible, with a just fermenter and a still, to make a lethal batch, and if so, how would you do it?

Even with a 2m fractionating column, I've never seen boiling point depression more than 0.5 degrees, which suggests low methanol concentration in ferments.

One does not hear about people dying from drinking non-distilled booze, and we all know a still does not change alcohols around.

I've also tried to find data on LD50 of methanol vs ethanol to find out what methanol concentration would kill you on an average bender. I've never been quite happy with my answers but they seem to be closer to 25% than 1-2%.

So my hypothesis is that people die when people add industrial methanol to their spirit, rather than anything one could actually do with a fermenter and a still.

Any thoughts people?
Your question is a good one.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Kareltje »

engunear wrote:
have unfairly put the blame on grappa and moonshine.
... thats my exact concern. Lot of people on this site live in places where the hobby is illegal. And bullshit like this makes it hard to make it change legislation.

We are a pretty safe bunch, stories like these, and about the Kentucky explosion (what a piece of crap metalwork that was, and they left it unattended) affect us.
But your motivation is less.

I do not care about legislation and I was told that politics are not a accepted subject in this forum.

But it still is an important question: how is it possible to distill a likker that is poisonous?
And acute poisonous.
I know of some cases where people drank a whole bottle (1 liter) of legal 30 %ABV and died.

The cure of a poisoning by methanol is keeping the subject poisoned by ethanol until the methanol is metabolized.
At least: I read that some time ago and it seemed logical.
rubber duck
retired
Posts: 3452
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:33 am
Location: brigadoon

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by rubber duck »

Kareltje wrote:
engunear wrote:
have unfairly put the blame on grappa and moonshine.
... thats my exact concern. Lot of people on this site live in places where the hobby is illegal. And bullshit like this makes it hard to make it change legislation.

We are a pretty safe bunch, stories like these, and about the Kentucky explosion (what a piece of crap metalwork that was, and they left it unattended) affect us.
But your motivation is less.

I do not care about legislation and I was told that politics are not a accepted subject in this forum.

But it still is an important question: how is it possible to distill a likker that is poisonous?
And acute poisonous.
I know of some cases where people drank a whole bottle (1 liter) of legal 30 %ABV and died.

The cure of a poisoning by methanol is keeping the subject poisoned by ethanol until the methanol is metabolized.
At least: I read that some time ago and it seemed logical.
A litter of 30% alcohol would probably kill me and you wouldn't have to put anything in it.
Ideas are like rabbits. You get a couple and learn how to handle them, and pretty soon you have a dozen. John Steinbeck
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Yummyrum »

Hound Dog wrote:Yea, kids will drink anything these days. Shine is the least of the worries. I heard a blip in the news the other day about kids getting drunk on hand sanitizer. Heard of washing a kids mouth out with soap but never knew they liked it!
Yeah local kids here were buying Rice cooking wine from the Supermarket ....not bad value at $3 for 750mls of 22% ABV ....kind of wonder if its excise free .....but faaark its salty. :lol:

Its behind the counter with the Tobacco now

When I was in Vietnam I saw a little rice factory where they did everything with rice from Rice puffs and Rice noodles to Distilled Rice cooking wine . I asked about cuts :clap: ...they don't and everything went into the bottle ) but when you think about it , whats the biggy if Methanol is still in with the ethanol .
Worse was they bottled it into plastic bottles :esurprised:

Sealed with Rice flour paste :thumbup:
Rice wine still.jpg
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by thecroweater »

Obviously exempt as a quick calculation that's around 12 dollars tax if classed as a spirit, I think it has to be 23 percent or higher to be subject to that
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by cob »

Kareltje wrote: I do not care about legislation and I was told that politics are not a accepted subject in this forum.

But it still is an important question: how is it possible to distill a likker that is poisonous?
And acute poisonous.

The cure of a poisoning by methanol is keeping the subject poisoned by ethanol until the methanol is metabolized.
the politics of trying to legalize home distillation of alcohol is accepted, none other.

methanol traditionally was made by distilling the smoke given off from the process of making charcoal (destructive distillation).

the modern method of making methanol involves passing components of natural gas through a catalyst to harvest methanol,

and tens of thousands of gallons of methanol are made this way daily.

in the process of fermentation and distillation making methanol is not easy in any but the smallest concentrations

you would have to have the intent of making methanol and choose the woodiest components you could get to ferment

and distill without cuts to obtain low concentrations of methanol mixed with higher concentrations of ethanol.

and as you pointed out the cure for methanol poisoning is ethanol poisoning.

so while it is possible to die from ethanol poisoning, it takes a large dose of stupid.

while methanol poisoning from fermenting and distilling common ingredients should only lead to a headache,

lowes has methanol made the modern way in the paint department for $2-$3 dollars a gallon, and that could easily kill you.

and as was pointed out by the croweater the boys died drinking store bought methanol intended for making diesel.
be water my friend
User avatar
engunear
Swill Maker
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Couch

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by engunear »

Nice post Cob. So I guess the answer is it would be very hard to kill yourself with methanol with a still and fermenter alone.

Its funny, when my comment about legalization was made, it never occurred to me that it would be seen as politics. "Politics" to me is the discussion about two candidates, where two people agree that one is an arsehole and one an angel, but disagree violently as to which is which.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by Kareltje »

Yes, it is hard to believe that not only yourselve but also someone else can be killed by a distilled fermentation. Maybe when someone used too much kernels with cyanide in it.

Politics is about trying to find the most wanted rules to live by. Because all people have different views on that, you will have to negotiate and find a balance.
The agreed rules to live by are called legislation. And we are all supposed to obey them/live by them, until we are succesfull in changing them. This proces of changing this rules and trying to find more wanted rules to live by, is called politics.
At least: that is the definition that works best for all parties.

Oh, and about methanol. A long time ago, when making rocket to go to the moon was an exiting new field of science and technics, I read about the Russian prisoners of war that worked in Peenemunde. The V1 or the V2 was fuelled by methanol and this was delivered by trucks. The story said, that the Russians pushed the empty truck up a hill, so the rest of the load would flow to the valve. Then they drank the methanol to get drunk.
I do not know if this story is true, but I would not be surprised if it was.
User avatar
engunear
Swill Maker
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Couch

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by engunear »

With the poor guy getting jailed for killing his son and two other boys (what a tragedy!), and it being blamed on the grappa he had made, with lots of people bsing on about home made alcohol, blah blah, we have this pearl from the Brisbane Times:
Crown prosecutor David Meredith said the deaths could have been avoided had Lynam properly labelled the toxic methanol used to make the liquor.
I looked for the QLD Coroner's report on their website the other day, and could not find a mention of this case. Not sure what it means to make a report to the coroner versus having the coroner list a report. But I think that line from the paper squashes the suggestion that the guy managed to ferment up some methanol.

Also, after digging through the reports on the Tasmanian deaths, which also got blamed on some home brew they had made, one article well after the case indicated that the deaths were coincidental and not related to the booze. So we have a case of "People who drink home-made alcohol die. People who do not drink home made alcohol die also." (Maybe that would make a good tag line.)
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by NZChris »

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/w ... hs/7511848
At the time, police suspected the men may have inadvertently picked up and drunk from another container on the property during a celebration, but the prosecution alleged the accused used an industrial methanol in the brew by mistake.
The headline reads, "William Lynam jailed for six years for homemade grappa deaths in Ballandean", but the item makes it clear that he didn't brew it, or distill it and it wasn't grappa. Unfortunately, a lot of people won't pick up on that, so home brewing, distilling and grappa will get an undeserved bad reputation.
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by thecroweater »

Yep media has reported misdirection from the very start of this case. He did give the boys, or allow them to drink methanol out of ignorance but it was legally purchased for the legal production of biodiesel. I'm sure the media understand that but it doesn't fit the story they wish to peddle, the only place in this saga where white lightning might have played a part in this whole sorry affair was at the hospital where the surviver was saved by being introveiniously fed high ABV ethanol, a fact that has gone almost unmentioned. A few years back we looked like falling in line with NZ in legalizing home distilling but a change to conservative gov and things has swung wildly the other way with full backing of most of the media, ecomonic prohabition is in full swing and fake moonshine stories abound with sickening regularity. The future of homedistilling looks bleak with constant misdirection and outright lies reported at every opportunity.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Make lethal methanol concentration

Post by shadylane »

engunear wrote:Reading an article about some people dying in Indonesia from drinking bootleg alcohol, I wondered whether it is possible, with a just fermenter and a still, to make a lethal batch, and if so, how would you do it?
I don't know if it's possible
Even though methanol boils at a lower temp than ethanol.
For reasons I'm too lazy to post, Methanol smears through out the run.
That makes it very difficult to intentional concentrate the methanol to ethanol ratio.
The only way to make a deadly batch of shine would be to add methanol to the ferment or distillate.
Post Reply