Novices should probably not attempt to be innovative

[Fivey]

My thesis is that there is an important ingredient to being innovative, and that is a solid and thorough understanding of what is going on. If you are new to something, you may have 101 different ‘fresh’ ideas. But you should restrain them until you have acquired a better understanding. Write them down and look at them in a few months or years. There are often good reasons why things are being done the way they are rather than in the innovative way that occurs to you as a noob. Plus, take a dose of humility: what are the chances that you, as a noob, have latched onto something that has been hitherto ignored by generations of experts before you? To believe this is the height of arrogance and hubris.

Now, once you have acquired some good knowledge, understanding, even wisdom, you are equipped to make truely innovative and ground-breaking discoveries or designs. Your ideas are rich from years of accumulated experience and information.

The story I am linking here should be a cautionary tale. It is not about a distillation accident; it is a tragedy that occurred because someone decided it was dumb that oxygen and acetylene were stored in separate bottles, and went about proving to himself he could fill a propane bottle with a mix of oxygen and acetylene and then weld with the pre-mixed gas. Because someone tried to be innovative without adequate experience and knowledge, because they thought that there had to be a better way than the traditional two-bottle setup. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12119555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

There is a right time and a wrong time to be innovative. The right time is not when you are only just learning the ropes. This applies to any discipline, craft, skill, or study...

[Pikey]

That story brings up more questions than I can list Fivey - about the practicalities of doing what he supposedly did !

Frankly - I don't believe it would be possible for a normal back-street mechanic to achieve that mix in that bottle ! Certainly not at a useable mix and pressure !

Nah !

[Fivey]

That story brings up more questions than I can list Fivey - about the practicalities of doing what he supposedly did !

Frankly - I don't believe it would be possible for a normal back-street mechanic to achieve that mix in that bottle ! Certainly not at a useable mix and pressure !

Nah !

So many questions. One thing is for sure: he was not successful. But whatever the guy did, don’t be that guy. When it comes to distillation: do things the trad way until you understand things well enough to experiment, and don’t be surprised if you get told by an old hand to quit with our brilliant idea and do something a particular way.

[steelmb]

My thesis is that there is an important ingredient to being innovative, and that is a solid and thorough understanding of what is going on. If you are new to something, you may have 101 different ‘fresh’ ideas. But you should restrain them until you have acquired a better understanding. Write them down and look at them in a few months or years. There are often good reasons why things are being done the way they are rather than in the innovative way that occurs to you as a noob. Plus, take a dose of humility: what are the chances that you, as a noob, have latched onto something that has been hitherto ignored by generations of experts before you? To believe this is the height of arrogance and hubris.

Now, once you have acquired some good knowledge, understanding, even wisdom, you are equipped to make truely innovative and ground-breaking discoveries or designs. Your ideas are rich from years of accumulated experience and information.

The story I am linking here should be a cautionary tale. It is not about a distillation accident; it is a tragedy that occurred because someone decided it was dumb that oxygen and acetylene were stored in separate bottles, and went about proving to himself he could fill a propane bottle with a mix of oxygen and acetylene and then weld with the pre-mixed gas. Because someone tried to be innovative without adequate experience and knowledge, because they thought that there had to be a better way than the traditional two-bottle setup. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12119555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

There is a right time and a wrong time to be innovative. The right time is not when you are only just learning the ropes. This applies to any discipline, craft, skill, or study...

With an attitude like that, nothing new and innovative would become reality.

[Tater]

My thesis is that there is an important ingredient to being innovative, and that is a solid and thorough understanding of what is going on. If you are new to something, you may have 101 different ‘fresh’ ideas. But you should restrain them until you have acquired a better understanding. Write them down and look at them in a few months or years. There are often good reasons why things are being done the way they are rather than in the innovative way that occurs to you as a noob. Plus, take a dose of humility: what are the chances that you, as a noob, have latched onto something that has been hitherto ignored by generations of experts before you? To believe this is the height of arrogance and hubris.

Now, once you have acquired some good knowledge, understanding, even wisdom, you are equipped to make truely innovative and ground-breaking discoveries or designs. Your ideas are rich from years of accumulated experience and information.

The story I am linking here should be a cautionary tale. It is not about a distillation accident; it is a tragedy that occurred because someone decided it was dumb that oxygen and acetylene were stored in separate bottles, and went about proving to himself he could fill a propane bottle with a mix of oxygen and acetylene and then weld with the pre-mixed gas. Because someone tried to be innovative without adequate experience and knowledge, because they thought that there had to be a better way than the traditional two-bottle setup. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12119555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

There is a right time and a wrong time to be innovative. The right time is not when you are only just learning the ropes. This applies to any discipline, craft, skill, or study...

With an attitude like that, nothing new and innovative would become reality.

Yours would then be useful for thinning the herd .Caution should always be foremost when playing with stuff that can harm you .

[nerdybrewer]

My thesis is that there is an important ingredient to being innovative, and that is a solid and thorough understanding of what is going on. If you are new to something, you may have 101 different ‘fresh’ ideas. But you should restrain them until you have acquired a better understanding. Write them down and look at them in a few months or years. There are often good reasons why things are being done the way they are rather than in the innovative way that occurs to you as a noob. Plus, take a dose of humility: what are the chances that you, as a noob, have latched onto something that has been hitherto ignored by generations of experts before you? To believe this is the height of arrogance and hubris.

Now, once you have acquired some good knowledge, understanding, even wisdom, you are equipped to make truely innovative and ground-breaking discoveries or designs. Your ideas are rich from years of accumulated experience and information.

The story I am linking here should be a cautionary tale. It is not about a distillation accident; it is a tragedy that occurred because someone decided it was dumb that oxygen and acetylene were stored in separate bottles, and went about proving to himself he could fill a propane bottle with a mix of oxygen and acetylene and then weld with the pre-mixed gas. Because someone tried to be innovative without adequate experience and knowledge, because they thought that there had to be a better way than the traditional two-bottle setup. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12119555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

There is a right time and a wrong time to be innovative. The right time is not when you are only just learning the ropes. This applies to any discipline, craft, skill, or study...

With an attitude like that, nothing new and innovative would become reality.

Yours would then be useful for thinning the herd .Caution should always be foremost when playing with stuff that can harm you .

As someone who was told more than once to slow down and follow well laid down plans and procedures and then went ahead and did things my own way just to find out how right those old guys were...

[Pikey]

That story brings up more questions than I can list Fivey - about the practicalities of doing what he supposedly did !

Frankly - I don't believe it would be possible for a normal back-street mechanic to achieve that mix in that bottle ! Certainly not at a useable mix and pressure !

Nah !

So many questions. One thing is for sure: he was not successful. But whatever the guy did, don’t be that guy. When it comes to distillation: do things the trad way until you understand things well enough to experiment, and don’t be surprised if you get told by an old hand to quit with our brilliant idea and do something a particular way.

Sorry Fivey - but I've challenged the veracity of your link - I don't believe it.

You challenge any of the old guard instructions / recommends on here and you will get a coherent discussion - not just "Don't become that guy" !

You are in danger of becomming a victim of the "Fallacy of venerable authority"!


When I was a kid, I had my own air rifle at 8 and was trusted to shoot it on my own - After dad knocked a pigeon off a barn roof - to show the sights were ok, I was repairing my own bike by 12, Riding a 350cc Royal Enfield around a field at 14 and doing my own repairs on it. Oxy Acetylene welding at 13 because my granddad was too old to get underneath his old VAuxhall Cresta. - My instructions in learning were - you want the inner cone to be a triangle with a very slightly rounded end - if it crackles like a sparkler - you're carburising - more oxygen, If it is burning metal away - you're oxidising - if it goes bang and covers you in boiling steel - you're too close and probably oxidising ! (He left me to learn the "Gauge settings" on my own !

By 16 I was repairing, respraying and selling old cars and doing car repair welding for money Swapping big ends and had learned that it was easier to roll the motor on its side to weld it rather than crawling underneath and getting covered in weld scars ! (Totally my own innovation !)

By the time I got here, I already had built my kit from an electrically adapted tea urn (bypassed some of the "Safety stuff) and was already producing from my own designed still (which I still use today !) - Yes I have learned from this place, but I really fell I have helped others as well.

I have several daughters and not a single one of their husbands could even get a non-runner engine of any type - running !

I don't know how people without a spirit of self - belief can hope to survive in a future world, but fortunately that is not my problem - ALL my kids are passed forward by me with as much confidence in their own abilities - to work things out and question everything they are "Told" as I could GIVE them.

.......There is a right time and a wrong time to be innovative. The right time is not when you are only just learning the ropes. This applies to any discipline, craft, skill, or study...

With an attitude like that, nothing new and innovative would become reality.

+1

[Tater]

Theirs those like you pikey and those who were not gifted with your apparent mechanical ability .So far a forums go we preach safety first .What ya decide to do on your own is up to you .

[Fivey]

My thesis is that there is an important ingredient to being innovative, and that is a solid and thorough understanding of what is going on.

Now, once you have acquired some good knowledge, understanding, even wisdom, you are equipped to make truely innovative and ground-breaking discoveries or designs. Your ideas are rich from years of accumulated experience and information.

There is a right time and a wrong time to be innovative. The right time is not when you are only just learning the ropes. This applies to any discipline, craft, skill, or study...

With an attitude like that, nothing new and innovative would become reality.

Please note that I did not suggest that people should not try to innovate.

[shadylane]

"Novices should probably not attempt to be innovative"
There's many folks that could find argument with that statement.


I wouldn't recommend mixing oxygen and acetylene in the same metal tank.
Although a plastic bag full is kinda fun to ignite

[Fivey]

That story brings up more questions than I can list Fivey - about the practicalities of doing what he supposedly did !

Frankly - I don't believe it would be possible for a normal back-street mechanic to achieve that mix in that bottle ! Certainly not at a useable mix and pressure !

Nah !

So many questions. One thing is for sure: he was not successful. But whatever the guy did, don’t be that guy. When it comes to distillation: do things the trad way until you understand things well enough to experiment, and don’t be surprised if you get told by an old hand to quit with our brilliant idea and do something a particular way.

Sorry Fivey - but I've challenged the veracity of your link - I don't believe it.

? The story is a real story in a real paper. It isn’t from some rag called The Real Honest Truth or something else trying too hard to convince you of it’s legitimacy. Admittedly, the story may have some wrong details because they have been presented to the journalist incorrectly, and there exists the non-zero probability that the journalist has tweaked the story a bit because they didn’t get it all correct or was operating with some bias. I am working on the assumption the story is basically true, and trying to draw a life lesson from it.

You challenge any of the old guard instructions / recommends on here and you will get a coherent discussion - not just "Don't become that guy" !

True, the answer is usually a coherent discussion of the form of ‘look, things are done this way for a good reason’. Which is kind of the point I am trying to make here.

You are in danger of becomming a victim of the "Fallacy of venerable authority"!

I would like you to read what I originally posted again. Nowhere did I say that the status quo should never be questioned. What I said was that knowledge equips you with the tools you need to innovate successfully.

Some people seem to like the School Of Hard Knocks. Others like to learn lessons from the mistakes of others and avoid those same mistakes. If we have to pick, which method should we advocate to new starters?

[Fivey]

"Novices should probably not attempt to be innovative"
There's many folks that could find argument with that statement.

I’m not being absolutist and saying it must not happen. I’m pointing out that successful innovation occurs with the application of real knowledge, not guesswork. I’m not saying that no novice has ever stumbled into a fresh idea.

I would actually be interested in seeing a cogent argument that successful innovation is found at the hands of people who have no substantive understanding of the problem domain. I’ve actually got an argument in favour, but I think it is a weaker argument than the one against that I have presented.

[Fivey]

Oxy Acetylene welding at 13 because my granddad was too old to get underneath his old VAuxhall Cresta. -
...
By 16 I was repairing, respraying and selling old cars and doing car repair welding for money Swapping big ends and had learned that it was easier to roll the motor on its side to weld it rather than crawling underneath and getting covered in weld scars ! (Totally my own innovation !)

So, you had 3 years experience of hot stuff dripping on you. That experience taught you to innovate effectively.

I think we need to make a distinction between ‘figure stuff out on your own’ and ‘innovate without understanding’. I think you are talking about the former, which clearly you have done a lot of. I am talking about the latter, which is not the same thing. Please do not infer from my argument that I believe that you have acquired knowledge over many years in the ‘wrong way’. That is NOT my argument. I do not believe that. More power to you. I have full respect for the path you have trod.

[HDNB]

just a tech note here. I was taught that acetylene will potentially spontaneously combust above 29PSI. to be store in a tank at the 250lbs delivered, it needs to be stabilized with acetone. moving an acetylene regulator above 29 was taboo...i believe thats why they redline at 15 psi and don't even read above 30.

of course oxy comes in a 2500 lb tank and can have big line pressure too. more than enough to raise acetylene above safe numbers, plus i hear oxygen is a great oxidizer too who'd a thunk??

so yeah, that was a doomed experiment...too bad the guy was never informed...

[Fiddleford]

You don't start playing fiddle like Jay Ungar
You don't know how to improvise
Learn theory/basics before you come up with your own

[johnsparrow]

I like you Fivey, you argue well.

[Pikey]

just a tech note here. I was taught that acetylene will potentially spontaneously combust above 29PSI. to be store in a tank at the 250lbs delivered, it needs to be stabilized with acetone. moving an acetylene regulator above 29 was taboo...i believe thats why they redline at 15 psi and don't even read above 30.

of course oxy comes in a 2500 lb tank and can have big line pressure too. more than enough to raise acetylene above safe numbers, plus i hear oxygen is a great oxidizer too who'd a thunk??

so yeah, that was a doomed experiment...too bad the guy was never informed...

Quite so HDNB - If the guy had his own bottles or even had ever welded, he would be well aware that it was a VERY bad idea - to try to mix the two before they get to the torch. He would just have used the bottles as they should have been used. If he had no experience at all - he must have got the gasses from someone who did possess the bottles. Would YOU let somebody play about like that with YOUR bottles ?

I don't know the REAL story behind that explosion - But I do know BS when I read it ! (Even if published in a "Venerable" journal !)

Nobody here is advocating doing anything dangerous lads - BUT what we do really is Not that dangerous - Look at all the You tube vids made by numpties ;

Ineffective, lacking in knowledge, lacking in ability, using rubber, plastics, Aluminium - likely to produce poor quality stuff with all sorts of contamination, probably tasting pretty dreadful with some of those materials. But NO "mathanol", NO "Explosions".

Now Fivey has compared by implication our Art with trying to mix oxygen and Acetylene in a pressure vessel of sorts. That is completely inappropriate and is the sort of tactics used by the opposition - to scare the pants off the populus !

Mythbusters actually TRIED to "explode a still" and couldn't do it ! (They Did make an explosion eventually but had to cheat a lot to do it - Not in a way which you could do accidentally ) The explosion they did make was not connected to the still, and the still was undamaged. It has been linked to on this site.

I know little of playing a fiddle, but I did buy a guitar and a book at one time. Managed to get a few chords out of it and have no doubt that with continued practice I would have "got the hang of it" eventually - That is how I learned pretty much everything about this hobby too ! I was trying to run my pot still by temperature and getting very little until I started to "Innovate" and just let the temperature rise a bit !

WIthout "innovation" I would suggest that all the newbies are just advised to buy and AIr-still and run turbo like it says in the instructions !

In my opinion, I would advise Newbies - yes do the reading, but as you do it, get a wash started - plenty of recipes in tried and true - or just use a "wine recipe" or a beer recipe (without the hops) - get a pot still made and get started. You can refine and adapt later, but do not be afraid to think for yourself ! Those first few crystal clear drops encapsulate the whole MAGIC - don't be afraid - it's not that hard to make something drinkable. This is a learning experience - use it to "Learn" !

You are over half way there - just by Getting to this site !

In conclusion then, I would say that this site is highly concerned with "Safety" and we dig deep into possible and potential safety issues. Nothing wrong with that and it is highly commendable. But there is a huge difference between "Not using silicone" and "Making a dangerous apparatus" like mixing oxygen and acetylene in a pressure vessel, then if it has not already exploded, trying to light it as implied in that first post !

I think that is something we need to stress - Looking at the "Legalise it" thread, we must ensure we don't get drawn into accepting that what we do is dangerous, because basically it is not !

[Pikey]

I like you Fivey, you argue well.

Indeed his use of language is very effective - SOmething I have noticed in the "new adults" is the ability to present excellent arguments for or against something which they believe is correct, in a way which can be quite frustrating for those of us more used to critical appraisal of facts.

Since there is so much of it prevailing on the Internet forums, it must be something which is taught in schools nowadays - and taught well !

What is the subject called please ?

[Fiddleford]

Some good points made here and to be made as well
Don't particularly agree with the name
I was taught in the way of did you learn your lesson
Was it smart to push the kid so he knocks your tooth out?
No
But sure teach em not to look down the barrel
Let em learn if they should or shouldn't diesel their pellet gun
They wanna break their shit let em
Make sure they don't kill themselves in the process

[Fivey]

Nobody here is advocating doing anything dangerous lads - BUT what we do really is Not that dangerous - Look at all the You tube vids made by numpties ;

Ineffective, lacking in knowledge, lacking in ability, using rubber, plastics, Aluminium - likely to produce poor quality stuff with all sorts of contamination, probably tasting pretty dreadful with some of those materials. But NO "mathanol", NO "Explosions".

Now Fivey has compared by implication our Art with trying to mix oxygen and Acetylene in a pressure vessel of sorts. That is completely inappropriate and is the sort of tactics used by the opposition - to scare the pants off the populus

Ah. I see the problem you have with what I posted now. I apologise, any inference as you have drawn was unintended, I was not wanting to suggest that distillation is inherently dangerous. I perhaps should have been clearer when I originally said that the link was not about a distillation incident. I was merely trying to draw from an extreme example of mayhem caused by uninformed actions, towards a recommendation that people walk before running. To finally be clear, I do not want to suggest that distillation is dangerous and damn fool noobs might blow themselves up. Rather, I think that novices to distillation can do well by imitating tried and true strategies and equipment, and stand on the shoulders of giants.

I know little of playing a fiddle, but I did buy a guitar and a book at one time. Managed to get a few chords out of it and have no doubt that with continued practice I would have "got the hang of it" eventually - That is how I learned pretty much everything about this hobby too ! I was trying to run my pot still by temperature and getting very little until I started to "Innovate" and just let the temperature rise a bit !

WIthout "innovation" I would suggest that all the newbies are just advised to buy and AIr-still and run turbo like it says in the instructions !

In my opinion, I would advise Newbies - yes do the reading, but as you do it, get a wash started - plenty of recipes in tried and true - or just use a "wine recipe" or a beer recipe (without the hops) - get a pot still made and get started. You can refine and adapt later, but do not be afraid to think for yourself ! Those first few crystal clear drops encapsulate the whole MAGIC - don't be afraid - it's not that hard to make something drinkable. This is a learning experience - use it to "Learn" !

I also would not want to put people off from having a go. Again, I draw a distinction between ‘learning from doing’ and ‘innovating without knowledge’. Giving it a go - especially following in the footsteps of those who have lead the way - is a good thing. Essential, in fact, to actually make progress.

we must ensure we don't get drawn into accepting that what we do is dangerous, because basically it is not !

Not my intention, and I apologise if it came across that way. I do not want to suggest that it is inherently dangerous for novices to start out in distillation. I do not believe, nor would I want anyone to think that distillation is as hazardous as experimenting with explosive gases. I saw the account as a hyperbolic example of what can happen when someone is uninformed. The consequences of being uninformed and experimentally ‘innovating’ in the domain of distillation are not nearly as dire. My point, perhaps poorly made, was that effort can best be expended in following the footsteps of those that precede us so we gain knowledge and are then equipped to be inventive, and that it is arrogant to presume that an idea we have as we start our journey has never previously been considered by experts.

[Tater]

Pikey wrote _we must ensure we don't get drawn into accepting that what we do is dangerous, because basically it is not !
Wonder if these guys agree with that .viewtopic.php?f=44&t=55616

[NZChris]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-ne ... r-by-trade
According to this report he was a welder by trade, not a novice at all, so you'll have to come up with a different moral for this story.

[johnsparrow]

Pikey wrote _we must ensure we don't get drawn into accepting that what we do is dangerous, because basically it is not !
Wonder if these guys agree with that .viewtopic.php?f=44&t=55616

I think they worked out the reason for that was that the still was not open to atmosphere ?

For a professional outfit that is a very novice mistake to make.

[johnsparrow]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-ne ... r-by-trade
According to this report he was a welder by trade, not a novice at all, so you'll have to come up with a different moral for this story.

He must have been smoking crack then.

[Pikey]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-ne ... r-by-trade
According to this report he was a welder by trade, not a novice at all, so you'll have to come up with a different moral for this story.

Thanks NZC.

SO there was talk of a "Grinding noise" before the bang and reference in the first story to "Modifed propane bottle" - Propane operates at ounces per square inch, is heavier than air and is happy to be mixed with air to burn very well at normal atmospheric pressure. Maybe he was cutting an (almost ) empty propane bottle with an angle grinder ? - Cut through the case, influx of air and continued cutting, generates huge number of hot sparks ?

Sounds way more likely to me ! - but time and examination of the tank should reveal the truth methinks.

[Edit - cutting propane bottles is known to be "Iffy" and the proceedure to do so demands the valve be removed and the bottle filled and scoured with water - quite a palaver - but seemingly necessary ! (I looked into it a few years ago but have never done one !) ]

[Fivey]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-ne ... r-by-trade
According to this report he was a welder by trade, not a novice at all, so you'll have to come up with a different moral for this story.

Well that just takes the cake. I made an assumption I thought was safe that the guy was new to acetylene. What experienced welder would try to do what he did?

Unless he was an experienced welder who used welding equipment daily but who didn’t pay attention in class to the workings of an acetylene cylinder and so just used the equipment without knowledge of what was going on. Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but feasible - my mother uses a iPad regularly but has no idea what a server is. It is possible to be experienced in an activity and to be ignorant at the same time.

Or maybe Pikey is right and there is a different story here. Maybe the guy was a terrorist making a bomb and it blew up on him.

This news does weaken my point, that I’ll grant. Take out the bit in my OP about the self-destructive Aucklander, so my hypothesis has to stand on the reasoning alone- I think it holds water without the illustrative example (which may not be valid).

[johnsparrow]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-ne ... r-by-trade
According to this report he was a welder by trade, not a novice at all, so you'll have to come up with a different moral for this story.

Well that just takes the cake. I made an assumption I thought was safe that the guy was new to acetylene. What experienced welder would try to do what he did?

Unless he was an experienced welder who used welding equipment daily but who didn’t pay attention in class to the workings of an acetylene cylinder and so just used the equipment without knowledge of what was going on. Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but feasible - my mother uses a iPad regularly but has no idea what a server is. It is possible to be experienced in an activity and to be ignorant at the same time.

Or maybe Pikey is right and there is a different story here. Maybe the guy was a terrorist making a bomb and it blew up on him.

This news does weaken my point, that I’ll grant. Take out the bit in my OP about the self-destructive Aucklander, so my hypothesis has to stand on the reasoning alone- I think it holds water without the illustrative example (which may not be valid).

As above;

He must have been smoking crack then.

[Pikey]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-ne ... r-by-trade
According to this report he was a welder by trade, not a novice at all, so you'll have to come up with a different moral for this story.

........... What experienced welder would try to do what he did?

Unless he was an experienced welder who used welding equipment daily but who didn’t pay attention in class to the workings of an acetylene cylinder and so just used the equipment without knowledge of what was going on. Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but feasible - my mother uses a iPad regularly but has no idea what a server is. It is possible to be experienced in an activity and to be ignorant at the same time.

...........

Sorry Fivey - but I called "BS" on the original story without any other evidence than - it is simply not possible for a back street mechanic to do what they said he did !

The story was clearly wrong on so many levels !

And yet you still persist with ;

........... What experienced welder would try to do what he did?

C'mon mate you're a bright lad - He didn't "Do it" at all ! (Venerable source or not ! )

[Fivey]

Sorry Fivey - but I called "BS" on the original story without any other evidence than - it is simply not possible for a back street mechanic to do what they said he did !

The story was clearly wrong on so many levels !

And yet you still persist with ;

........... What experienced welder would try to do what he did?

C'mon mate you're a bright lad - He didn't "Do it" at all ! (Venerable source or not ! )

You know, I’m guessing the full story disappeared in a bang and we’ll never know. Maybe the truth of the story doesn’t support my thesis. Would you like me to say you were right all along? Here you go: you were right all along. The newspaper article does not stand as good evidence for what I was endeavouring to prove.

I’m sorry I even linked the story.

Now, putting aside the newspaper story entirely, perhaps you would like to comment on my argument on it’s own merits? Not challenging it by assuming I am against self-learning or giving things a go, but addressing the question of: Is it important to ‘know stuff’ (however acquired) in order to break new ground in a given field?

Throughout this conversation, I have endeavoured to be reasonable and give ground to salient points you and others have made. You have been rather obdurate however, even when I have put up what I think are reasonable responses to some of the things you have challenged me on. Can you give me something? Anything? Even of the form ‘you are right about A but also B is true.’ This isn’t a cage fight.

[steelmb]

Sorry Fivey - but I called "BS" on the original story without any other evidence than - it is simply not possible for a back street mechanic to do what they said he did !

The story was clearly wrong on so many levels !

And yet you still persist with ;

........... What experienced welder would try to do what he did?

C'mon mate you're a bright lad - He didn't "Do it" at all ! (Venerable source or not ! )

You know, I’m guessing the full story disappeared in a bang and we’ll never know. Maybe the truth of the story doesn’t support my thesis. Would you like me to say you were right all along? Here you go: you were right all along. The newspaper article does not stand as good evidence for what I was endeavouring to prove.

I’m sorry I even linked the story.

Now, putting aside the newspaper story entirely, perhaps you would like to comment on my argument on it’s own merits? Not challenging it by assuming I am against self-learning or giving things a go, but addressing the question of: Is it important to ‘know stuff’ (however acquired) in order to break new ground in a given field?

Throughout this conversation, I have endeavoured to be reasonable and give ground to salient points you and others have made. You have been rather obdurate however, even when I have put up what I think are reasonable responses to some of the things you have challenged me on. Can you give me something? Anything? Even of the form ‘you are right about A but also B is true.’ This isn’t a cage fight.

My God give it a rest! Admit that you are wrong and move on. I expect that you were captain of your debate team but I have been called a troll here for much less in my opinion.