CONDENSER SAFETY

This hobby is fun & enjoyable, but it is not tiddlywinks. Be safe!

Moderator: Site Moderator

Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Looking to purchase a multi purpose condenser for a 12 gallon SS keg. I am new to this hobby and have a condenser question. My first contact with distilling was with a friend at a persons home who was distilling. From my reading here I believe it was a VM shotgun condenser. The condenser was copper and had about 8 smaller copper tubes within a larger one. Looked to be about 3 inches. The top of the condenser, all the small copper pipes, were exposed to the air. I could feel heat coming from the tubes as the boiler was being heated. Well after a while I became light head and a bit nauseous. I left but it took me 1/2 a day to recover. This obviously wasn’t a safe way to do things. From reading here, please correct me if I’m not understanding this correctly, when the boiler is heated the vapors go up the condenser and is cooled by water. If done correctly the vapors should remain within the system. In this case they weren’t. Is this setup correct and was it user error that caused the problem or design? Any input would be appreciated.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by NZChris »

User error. It sounds like the water wasn't turned on.
hellbilly007
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:59 am
Location: Never one place very long

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by hellbilly007 »

Sounds a bit like monoxide poisoning from my experience
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Hellybilly007 the heat source was electrical so I don’t thing that was the problem.
Windswept
Swill Maker
Posts: 325
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:32 pm

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Windswept »

Could just be that it wasn’t condensing properly and you we’re getting a lot of alcohol vapour. High proof alcohol can also evaporate really quickly, so in a small space, you could have just been getting drunk!
If I didn't learn the hard way, I wouldn't learn at all!
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Thanks Windswept I think you are 100% correct and that makes this type condenser completely unsuitable for my needs. The last thing I need is getting other people sick because I wasn’t paying attention to a temperature change. Just starting to learn but this doesn’t seem like a very good way of distilling unless outdoors.

I’ll move on from this type to another. Thanks again.
User avatar
Single Malt Yinzer
Trainee
Posts: 973
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Safety
Don't distill in a closed room. Try and keep some through-draught (eg both a window and door open). Distilling can produce some nasty smelling fumes.
Once you turn the heat on you will likely get some off smelling vapor. It's one of the reasons you want to make sure you have fresh air available. VM's are fine and no reason to run away from them.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Yummyrum »

I agree with Single Malt Yinzer .
There is nothing wrong with a VM still .... in fact I’d vote it the best type of still head . I recently converted my CM flute to a VM flute as it’s just soooo much easier to run .

Sounds like your ol’ mate was just warming up too fast with no coolant flow .

Do the same thing with any other still and you will have the same thing happen .
Fivey
Bootlegger
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:46 am

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Fivey »

There is nothing wrong with a shotgun condenser, they are quite efficient. Without seeing how your friend had their still set up it is impossible to say precisely what they were doing wrong, but it is fair to guess they weren't doing something well. Here you will be able to learn what works and what doesn't, and you'll be able to then go and proffer some good advice to your mate - and when they ask how you have learned so much so quickly, send them here also so they can also school themselves well
User avatar
pope
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1346
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Tinseltown

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by pope »

When a still heats up the air inside expands, so even if the cooling is working properly you will still get a bit of 'smelly' air coming out of the still before condensate ever does. BUT it shouldn't make you ill. My guess is the coolant wasn't flowing properly or the condenser was too small for the heat input on the system, and so a vapor cloud was getting in your lungs. Definitely not a situation you want to be in. A proper still should smell a bit while its running but not get you sick or give you an explosion risk.
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again." - Alexander Pope
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Thanks for all the input. Right or wrong your inputs still make me shy away for this type condenser. To much heat, condenser to small, etc. I want this to be a safe hobby for me and others, indoors. I want to learn but only to a point. I just want to make a bit of beverage and have fun. This is not something I want to conquer it’s to complicated. I want equipment which is plug and play from a safety stand point. The turbo 500 still seems to fit the bill equipment wise. Safe and reliable. I could then concentrate on experimenting and not on safety. Any other still or condensers recommendations would be helpful. I don’t want to build anything. I have a keg, free, and though I could just buy a condenser. Am I that far off base. I would like at least to get the correct equipment to start.
User avatar
acfixer69
Global moderator
Posts: 4826
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:34 pm
Location: CT USA

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by acfixer69 »

You are being given good advice. If you choose not to listen, save the questions for your buddies. If you think the T500 is a safe plug and play you need to do a google search and read the issues. You need to understand this hobby is not plug and play.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by NZChris »

You can make mistakes or get bad running advice with any still you can buy or build, including a T500. I suggest you don't spend any money until you have learned enough about distilling to know whether or not a particular still or design is safe and is what you need.
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Slow42 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:05 pm I want equipment which is plug and play from a safety stand point. The turbo 500 still seems to fit the bill equipment wise. Safe and reliable.
You do have a lot to learn.
Can you please explain to me in what ways a T500 is any safer than any other still ?
Is it really plug and play or did the bloke at the shop who wants to sell you one tell you that?
Or did you believe the sales pitch from the manufacturers that you read somewhere?
People here are trying to give you good advice that they have gained through EXPERIENCE!..... not just advice that they dreamed up or read somewhere.
User avatar
Tummydoc
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:05 pm
Location: attack ship off the shoulder of Orion

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Tummydoc »

Slow, sounds like your friend had a short shotgun dephlagmator and did not properly balance power input to coolant flow. Not really an equipment failure but operator error allowing alcohol vapor to vent. Most of us use the term "shotgun condenser " to refer to a product condenser and they are very efficient. If your goal is pot distillation the you dont need to worry about a reflux condenser (dephlagmator). If you later want to get into reflux distillation for neutral spirits I'd suggest you look into a CCVM column. All reflux techniques require adjustments of power, cooling, and take off. It's a fine symphony and isnt plug and play. But CCVM is the easiest in my opinion.
Fivey
Bootlegger
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:46 am

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Fivey »

Slow42 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:05 pm Thanks for all the input. Right or wrong your inputs still make me shy away for this type condenser. To much heat, condenser to small, etc. I want this to be a safe hobby for me and others, indoors. I want to learn but only to a point. I just want to make a bit of beverage and have fun. This is not something I want to conquer it’s to complicated. I want equipment which is plug and play from a safety stand point. The turbo 500 still seems to fit the bill equipment wise. Safe and reliable. I could then concentrate on experimenting and not on safety. Any other still or condensers recommendations would be helpful. I don’t want to build anything. I have a keg, free, and though I could just buy a condenser. Am I that far off base. I would like at least to get the correct equipment to start.
Let me see if I have got this straight...
* you are new to this
* your buddy had a still he hadn't set up right and it was venting fumes that made you sick
* you have - without practical experience - singled out one part of his whole setup as what you believe to be a problem
* you have stated this belief to a virtual room full of experts who have told you the issue isn't the shotgun dephlagmator design itself but something your buddy screwed up
* despite the room full of experts advising you, you have decided to choose to believe the conclusion you came to on your own in your inexperience and then you tell us that you are sticking with this belief "right or wrong"
* you also tell us that while you want to be safe you also don't want to have to learn anything you just want to get some stuff and have it work

Are you 'far off base'? Yes. Yes, you are.

Can you not see that your buddy didn't take the time to learn what he was doing, he got what he thought was a plug-and-play still, and you SAW HIM MESS UP. But you want to do things the same way? While not actually taking advice from experts, but holding to ill-formed opinions? The unsafe things here aren't shotgun condensers but attitudes.

Let go of your pre-existing ideas and start learning. Even if you do go out and buy a ready-to-go still, you must not presume that you can experiment away and 'not worry about safety'. You should always worry about safety, being aware of what can go wrong, and taking steps to prevent that from happening. You should also not be thinking about experimenting at this stage in your hobby development - you need to be following the tried and true well-trodden path laid by others before you. That is the safe path.
User avatar
Corsaire
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1131
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:20 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Corsaire »

Hey slow42.

Can I recommend you build a ccvm? From your intro you stated you want vodkas as well as whiskeys.
A ccvm allows you to cap off the top t so there's no chance of vapors getting past there.
Then, once you're comfortable with running your setup you can use the reflux condenser to make vodkas.
They're cheaper and more versatile than a t500. And you won't need to change equipment after a while when you discover the t500 doesn't quite cover your needs.
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Everyone thanks for your input it is appreciated. I was just trying to relay my experience with a so called shotgun condenser being used to distill. You don’t often have the opportunity to watch a still in action and I found it interesting. I have read more on the subject and learned a bit more but there’s like being there and watching it operate. Here is a photo from the site that shows something similar to what I saw. download/file.php?id=1976&mode=view. I hadn’t plan on posting photos so haven’t learn that yet. His was round but had similar pipes. This photo shows it had a top with a small pipe coming from it. His didn’t open to room.

The shotgun I saw was about 18 inches long with cooling water pipes top and bottom. It sat on top of a column that was about 30 inches tall. Just below the condenser on the column was a small copper pipe, 1/4 inch, with a valve which led to a collection jar. All this was attached to an electric keg. My concern as I have mentioned are the pipes on the condenser open to the room. As soon as you start the boiler the vapor has no where to go but up and out, through these tubes. Your saying that if operated properly, water flow in condenser, knocks down all the dangerous fumes from this operation? This was my one and only concern about a shotgun condenser.
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by still_stirrin »

Here’s your photo:
3249B4B0-3942-4DAA-A6CF-6CB898EF86D9.jpeg
Interesting...a “square” pipe. Not the most efficient but probably easy to make, ie - fold. What does the other end look like? Where is the vapor inlet tube/pipe? Is it larger than the tubes in the tube bank?

Oh, there is an “attachment” tab below the text entry box (if you click on the “full editor & preview” button). Click the tab and the “add files” radio button. Then, navigate to the photo on your device and choose the size that fits (less than 500kb) and click “done”. Then, click “place inline”. It’ll resize and upload to the website. Done.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Thanks still_stirrin that was just an example of the pipes I was talking about venting into the room. The one I saw was round 3 inch copper pipe with tube inside. It was very nice looking.
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by still_stirrin »

That should work fine as a dephlegmator in line with the vapor pipe/column in a CM, or as a reflux condenser on top of the Tee for a VM branch. The vapor tube area is large and the conduction surface area should handle the heat load that generates the vapor flow rate.

Often the dephleg vapor tubes are larger diameter with fewer pipes in the bank. This provides knockdown but also won’t allow the “full reflux” for azeotropic alcohol production, ie - when the highest purity and neutral flavors are desired.

If the dephleg is for inline operation, often the condenser length will be shorter because 100% knockdown isn’t necessary (for flavored spirits). But if you’re intending this above a VM Tee, then a longer tube bank is wise to ensure that all vapors will be condensed within the condenser section (very important).
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
User avatar
Danespirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2647
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Denmark

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Danespirit »

Based on the picture I see...I hardly know what to say..!
This is a Frankenstein RC with a waaaay too small outlet.

My advice would be: Start with a simple pot still arrangement and go from there.
Learn how to run it, learn how to make decent cuts, then advance to a reflux still from there.
There are a lot of building information on HD and a lot of info describing the whole process.
IF you don't want to build, buy a well-proven design and not some cheap china crap from eBay like these:
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600 (1).jpg
Edit: Your last photo shows a decent RC/ dephlagmator...that's the way to go.
Fivey
Bootlegger
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:46 am

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Fivey »

Slow42 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:55 am My concern as I have mentioned are the pipes on the condenser open to the room. As soon as you start the boiler the vapor has no where to go but up and out, through these tubes. Your saying that if operated properly, water flow in condenser, knocks down all the dangerous fumes from this operation? This was my one and only concern about a shotgun condenser.
In a design like you describe it is ESSENTIAL that the top of the column is open to the atmosphere, else it could build up pressure internally and that is Bad. An 18" shotgun condenser/dephlagmator on top of a column is more than enough to 'knock down' the alcohol vapours so they condense out (this is part of the design of a reflux still) as long as the cooling water is adequately cool, it is pumped through the condenser, and it is hooked up the right way around, and an appropriate amount of power is applied to the boiler. There are people here using 6" shotgun dephalgmators here.

Here is some advice for you: skip the reflux stills for now, given your concerns, that is not the path you want to go down. Not until you have done some more learning and understand what is going on. For now, go down the traditional pot still route.

Here is an example shopping list to go this route:
* A milk-can style boiler with a 2" tri-clamp fitting on top (assuming you don't want to build, you said you had a keg but you also said you wanted turn-key)
* A 2" PTFE tri-clamp gasket
* A 2" tri-clamp
* A length of 2" stainless steel tri-clamp 'spool' tube, say 12" to 24"
* Another 2" PTFE gasket
* Another 2" tri-clamp
* A 2" 90-degree elbow tri-clamp tube
* Yet another 2" PTFE gasket
* Yet another 2" tri-clamp
* Another 2" 90-degree elbow tri-clamp tube
* One more 2" PTFE gasket
* One more 2" tri-clamp
* One 2"- wait for it - shotgun condenser, 18" to 20" long
Connect them in that order, from the top of the boiler. Use the join between the two elbows to put the condenser at a bit of an angle.
You'll also need some barbed hosetail fittings that screw onto the shotgun condenser's inlet and outlet cooling ports, and some hosing to run from a water supply to the condenser inlet (the one near the open end of the condenser) and some more hosing to run from the condenser outlet port to wherever (drain, garden, what-have-you).

That isn't your only option, but it is a good versatile and simple first still, leaving you options for other designs such as reflux columns in the future. You might choose to go all 3" instead of 2". You can add a reducer on the end of the shotgun to neck it down a bit, or do what I did and bend up a bit of sheet stainless steel into a sort of open funnel. You could also replace the shotgun condenser with a loooooooong Leibig or some other adequately sized product condenser but (a) a shotgun condenser is a good size for this design (b) I wanted you to see that there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with a shotgun design

[EDIT: I am assuming a complete boiler package above; you might find if doesn't come with a heating element, so you might need to add that to the shopping list, and you will also need a power controller to adjust the heating element]
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Fivey thanks I’ll have to draw that one out on paper. Yes I have a keg with a hole in it for a heating element. I have a PID controller I use for my smoker, 120 volts, don’t know yet if a 120 volt heating element would be ok for for a 1/2 keg, 15 gallons, but the most would be 6 gallons or so. I could build another PID in 240 volt version. That’s something I can do in my sleep.
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Still_stirrin thanks for the explanation I think :eh: Just joking. Your explanation was just what I needed. Changes everything for me.
Fivey
Bootlegger
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:46 am

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Fivey »

Slow42 wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:52 am Fivey thanks I’ll have to draw that one out on paper. Yes I have a keg with a hole in it for a heating element. I have a PID controller I use for my smoker, 120 volts, don’t know yet if a 120 volt heating element would be ok for for a 1/2 keg, 15 gallons, but the most would be 6 gallons or so. I could build another PID in 240 volt version. That’s something I can do in my sleep.
Oh, sweet, you are almost there then. My suggestion above was to avoid the bit that concerned you, but I have since learned vodka is your goal, so that pot still would not suit you. I would suggest a CCVM. Do you want me to suggest how to assemble that?

As for the heating element, you should be ok with the maximum rated element you can put on a standard wall socket, but if you can go to a higher-rated outlet, go for it. You have the Power controller to reduce power when you want it lower, but you can crank it if you want to. Just keep the heater element W spec within the limits for the outlet you will use.
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Fivey that would be great if you would. My only concern is cost as I have a limit as to what I’ll spent on this hobby. Trying to buy something already build was my goal but I may have to sacrifice that and settle of something reasonable. I don’t think building will be much cheaper.
Fivey
Bootlegger
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:46 am

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Fivey »

Ok, the CCVM design can be found described here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41579&hilit=controlled

But as a quick summary, you have a packed column with a tee on top oriented so the T is on it’s side; and a condenser coil feeding down from the open top far enough down that it passes the mouth of the side-port of the T. From the side port you have an elbow and a product condenser. You push the Top condenser coil down past the mouth of the side take-off to put the column into full reflux; you pull it up a bit to allow vapours to exit the column and escape to the product condenser.

Making it out of simple 2” tubing, you can keep the costs low by buying the bits direct from Ali express, and avoid the $ associated with a ‘distilling kit’. It is also easier to buy a bit at a time as you can afford it rather than have to swallow it all in one payment.

Use 3/8” x 72” CSST to make a quick and easy coil, low effort.

Here is an example shopping list; you can probably do better by looking for each item a bit harder than I just did:

2x 2” 500mm spool https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3282219 ... b201603_53

Copper mesh 5m https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3282513 ... 1310dTWoKZ

72” 3/8” CSST https://www.homedepot.com/p/HOME-FLEX-3 ... /204626688
You might want to get one with a gas valve to give you extra control over water flow

1x 2” tee https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3281946 ... 1af0Htg4EM

1x 2” condenser https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3282913 ... 3862BP92Wn

90 degree elbow 2” https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3283791 ... 5a0aklc1Yd

6x 2” triclamps https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3281933 ... 6f28sqrmQB

6x 2” PTFE gaskets https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3281947 ... 7256tKf7ei

You’ll also need some hosetail barb adaptors and hose clamps and some hose.

That is almost all of it... except you need an additional length of 2” spool pipe, and the exact length you want depends on your bending of the CSST. Get one of the 500mm 2” sections, bend the CSST into a coil such that it fits inside the pipe snuggly, and then measure the length of the coil as it would be within the 2” pipe, with the connectors sticking out the top. Take off that number the height of the top of the Tee down to the lower mouth of the side port. Then get a length of spool to suit, with the intent that when the CSST coil is pressed right down from the top of the Tee, you should see the coil all the way through the mouth of the side port.

Eg 1x 100mm 2” spool https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3284333 ... b201603_53

That is the simplest... for a little more $ you can see what is going on better by replacing the Tee with a cross + a viewport (and an extra pair of gasket/clamp)

1x 2” cross https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3288353 ... 1af008vYOz

1x 2” viewport https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3283883 ... 1433AQZ169

Don’t forget the extra gasket and clamp.

You should be able to get an idea of how that all goes together from the pics etc in that thread above, but let me know if you need pics and I’ll take some of mine which is like this except 3”
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: CONDENSER SAFETY

Post by Slow42 »

Fivey first I want to thank you for all your research to help me. Your parts and pieces are in my price range. The key and most important aspect of this design is that it exposes fumes to the room if not properly set mechanically and environmentally. This is not something I want to get involved with even though it’s a good design and you and others can operate it without incident. The shotgun condenser, as I have read, has many other ways it can be used and safely. I know that word again. :roll:

Time to move on from this to something else and that’s going to be something like a Mile Hi still. Lower expectations I know but that’s what if feel comfortable with. I’m waiting on input from others who have had experience using such a still.

Thanks again for all the help.
Post Reply