STILL EXHAUST

[Slow42]

I understand now how a still operates be it pot or reflux. All stills are open systems! What is exhausted from the still, not product, when the still is being brought up to temperature and while running. I don’t want to use the word vapor as I m not sure that is what it is but something must be coming out.

[still_stirrin]

Pressure, be it expanding air, steam, or volatile vapors. The vent ensures your boiler isn’t pressurized.

But note, there isn’t a vent in a potstill, per say, just that the outlet stays open to expanding vapors from the boiler. Therein lies the danger of a puke, when there is a potential for your piping to get plugged, especially if using a (small diameter tubing) worm.

Physics lesson - as the pressure increases so does the boiling point. And as that happens, the potential energy also increases. If the pressure increases with the temperature and the flash point of the “steam” is reached, you have a BOMB! Don’t allow that to happen.
ss

[Slow42]

Still_stirrin the volatile vapors are what I’m concerned about. I planned on operating the still indoors and the vapor part is safety concern. What’s you opinion on operating indoors. When I first joined I wrote a post about having ill effects from fumes and was told that properly operated no harmful vapors would be emitted. I was completely convinced! Thanks

[Yummyrum]

Probably CO2 gas from the fermentation that is still in the wash is the main thing that comes out of a wah when boiled that does not condense into liquid .
All other stuff that is vaporised will be recondensed into liquid ..... assuming the condenser has adequate coolant flow and is not overpowered ... IE boiler running harder than condenser can cope with .

[OtisT]

For the most part, there is no signifiant flow coming out of the still. Boiling creates a lot of vapor, increasing pressure in the boiler and that newly formed vapor races out of the boiler toward your condenser. Assuming your cooling has as much knock down power as your boiler has heat power, your condenser turns all that vapor back to liquid. This means the net flow of air out of your still is zero.

This is simplified, and I’m sure there is some minor out flow from expansion of everything. You can smell alcohol when it’s operating, like acetone when fores come, ethanol for hearts, and definately 2-proposal and others when the tails come. I don’t think this is so much vapor smell coming out as much as it is evaporation of the liquid you collect.

As far as I know, the need for ventilation is a safety need in the event of a vapor leak, and not because of a consistent vapor issue from general distilling that comes out of the still. Ventilation is also desirable just to deal with some of the smells from the product you collect. As mentioned, foreshots and tails are stinky but not overwhelming.

I’m no expert on this, just a hobbyist, so consider the source. I do distill indoors always.

Otis

[StillerBoy]

What is exhausted from the still, not product, when the still is being brought up to temperature and while running. I don’t want to use the word vapor as I m not sure that is what it is

A picture of your still would help to indentify what it is your are talking.. from what I'm reading, you are not balancing the condenser water flow with the amount heat imput..

If your water flow rate is too slow, then vapours will be released, and that applies to both set up, pot or reflux mode

Mars

[zed255]

Would you be referring to a bit of odor off the still, most notable during initial warm up and early fores production? I think there are some really light compounds that do escape early on but that fades quickly once producing properly. I get a little odour at the start of a run reminiscent of fores long before the boiler charge even reaches boiling.

[still_stirrin]

During heat up, one of the 1st volatiles produced will be acetylaldehyde. It smells like green apples. Typically, it is in very small amounts but is very sensitive for our senses. It will be followed by acetone and ethyl acetate. Acetone smells like paint thinner because that’s what it is. And ethyl acetate smells like fingernail polish remover, another easily identifiable smell.

These vapors are volatile and will outgas early on your distillation run. The vapors are all flammable and can be dangerous in concentration. So, adequate ventilation is strongly advised.

Incidently, I distill indoors with my small ginstill. I don’t notice any excessive odors when running unless I’m delinquent starting the coolant flow to the product shotgun.

Be safe.
ss

[HDNB]

During heat up, one of the 1st volatiles produced will be acetylaldehyde. It smells like green apples. Typically, it is in very small amounts but is very sensitive for our senses. It will be followed by acetone and ethyl acetate. Acetone smells like paint thinner because that’s what it is. And ethyl acetate smells like fingernail polish remover, another easily identifiable smell.

These vapors are volatile and will outgas early on your distillation run. The vapors are all flammable and can be dangerous in concentration. So, adequate ventilation is strongly advised.

Incidently, I distill indoors with my small ginstill. I don’t notice any excessive odors when running unless I’m delinquent starting the coolant flow to the product shotgun.

Be safe.
ss

size matters, a small still, small off gas of the early volatiles. big still, big off gas. ventilate appropriately. i leave the man door open on the still shack and with convection and a cross draft from an opposing window it has not been a problem. enough cooling is key to safety from any vapour escape from the product tube, where liquid should be.

it's gonna smell, but should be in low order. If you can notice strong smell, taste (the air) or eyes watering i'd call that a caution flag calling for more venting or more cooling, or both.

[Slow42]

What you're all sayings is kind of what I was thinking from the beginning. I’ve watched several videos where the water is not turned on until the temperature is in operating mode sometimes up to an hour. To avoid all vapors should water be run from the very beginning?

[jonnys_spirit]

I distill indoors in my basement. I can quickly open a door to the outside to vent if there were an accident and I keep an extinguisher close by. I don't leave the still running unattended (ever). I run electric and wouldn't use gas indoors. For heatup I apply max power (5k5W element / 23A / 16 gallon pot still) and monitor temp both in the column and boiler to bring it up as quick as possible (45m to 1h). As it approaches temp I'll dial back my power to about 5A or 6A in order to let the foreshots dwell and take them off very slowly as it starts to produce slow drips. I may take 1h for about 200ml foreshots at which point I'll raise power up to somewhere between 7A-9A for the first little bit (producing a thin or broken stream) and to make sure it doesn't puke then full power (23A) for a strip run till done and much lower for a spirit run (7A-9A for starters).

Long before anything starts dripping out of the PC I can smell it in the basement. Not alcohol but the fruity and maybe solvent like aroma's coming off the still/PC output. This doesn't condense in the PC but it is "smellable". Not super strong but I'll also stick my nose up on the the output of the PC and check for these aroma's as it heats up. It's always been this way and is normal behavior. I monitor output temp of PC coolant (water) and keep it warm to hot as well as adjusting for a gradual temp gradient along the length of the PC.

I have a small mirror to check around all joints, seals, and output of PC for any vapor leaks (fog on mirror) and if I see any will shut down and fix that before continuing. I don't want to lose ETOH nor do I want there to be an ignition incident so I'll check for leaks regularly through the run.

I typically run flavored spirits but should be similar with a neutral wash.

Cheers!
-jonny

[jonnys_spirit]

If you don't have a small mirror use the back side of a polished spoon (like the girl putting on makeup w/no mirror).

Cheers!
-jonny

[Slow42]

Jonnys_spirit said “ Not alcohol but the fruity and maybe solvent like aroma's coming off the still/PC output. This doesn't condense in the PC but it is "smellable"

This is exactly what I’m worried about.

[jonnys_spirit]

Venting your space should help dissipate the aromas . I've never had any problems at all with it without additional venting. As far as I'm concerned - this is an indication that everything is normal.

Cheers!
-jonny

[StillerBoy]

To avoid all vapors should water be run from the very beginning?

One should have some water flow at the very start, it doen't need to very much.. then as heat up continues, by checking the temp of the column, one can get an idea of where the heat up is, then once the column start to get hot, I adjust the want flow to a predetermine opening for the fores, then find tune it from there after for the rest of the run..

Mars

[still_stirrin]

To avoid all vapors should water be run from the very beginning?

One should have some water flow at the very start, it doen't need to very much.. then as heat up continues, by checking the temp of the column, one can get an idea of where the heat up is, then once the column start to get hot, I adjust the want flow to a predetermine opening for the fores, then find tune it from there after for the rest of the run..

Mars

I always fill the product shotgun with water when I turn power on to the boiler. Then, I shut the water off until I feel the temperature up the riser/column reach the top. This way, the product condenser is filled with a large heat sink to condense the start of vapor production. And I don’t run a lot of water down the drain.

Once it starts dipping, I start the water once again.
ss

[jonnys_spirit]

Same here with water flow in PC during heatup. I certainly smell the aromas (which have never been condensed) as it heats up though. Never been a concern and checking consistently with a mirror for any vapor leaks.

Cheers!
-jonny

[OtisT]

. Acetone smells like paint thinner because that’s what it is. And ethyl acetate smells like fingernail polish remover, another easily identifiable smell.

FYI. Old school finger nail polish remover with it’s distinct smell is Acetone, same as paint thinner. There are some nail polish remover products made from ethyl acetate and isopropyl alcohol but this are not what most folks think of as the smell of nail polish remover. Those are typically marked as “Acetone free” removers.

Nail polish does typically use ethyl acetate as the primary thinning agent.

Otis

[OtisT]

Slow42. While on the subject I will throw one more tidbit of info out there for you that is loosely related to this subject.

If you ever see true smoke coming from your condenser, that is likely a “scorch” caused by solids burning on your element. The first and only time I saw this, I thought my condenser was not cooling enough and that I was seeing alcohol vapor escaping. I quickly checked cooling and the condenser had good flow and the output was still cold. Then I noticed the vapor was white, not clear like alcohol vapor. Then I noticed the smell. Ouch!

Otis

[Slow42]

Thanks for all the input.

[6 Row Joe]

Slow42. While on the subject I will throw one more tidbit of info out there for you that is loosely related to this subject.

If you ever see true smoke coming from your condenser, that is likely a “scorch” caused by solids burning on your element. The first and only time I saw this, I thought my condenser was not cooling enough and that I was seeing alcohol vapor escaping. I quickly checked cooling and the condenser had good flow and the output was still cold. Then I noticed the vapor was white, not clear like alcohol vapor. Then I noticed the smell. Ouch!

Otis

Damn, I just had a scorch and a puke. What a mess. I shouldn't have started it. The beer wasn't clear and I knew it. I am a newcomer to all grains and I have had a couple successful single malts and of course UJSSM runs. I mash in a bag and have gotten conversion and strained off the mash through cheesecloth but no clear liquids on top. I even tried some clearing agents I had. Well, back to the drawing board. Or back to Uncle Jessie's.

[StillerBoy]

Damn, I just had a scorch and a puke. What a mess. I shouldn't have started it. The beer wasn't clear and I knew it. I am a newcomer to all grains and I have had a couple successful single malts and of course UJSSM runs.

Haste got the best of you, and the sad part is your mind told you so but disregarded it.. all grains differ in clearing behaviour than single malt or UJSSM as they clear up quite well if degased and given some time to rest..

Let it be a good lesson learned..

Mars

[6 Row Joe]

Damn, I just had a scorch and a puke. What a mess. I shouldn't have started it. The beer wasn't clear and I knew it. I am a newcomer to all grains and I have had a couple successful single malts and of course UJSSM runs.

Haste got the best of you, and the sad part is your mind told you so but disregarded it.. all grains differ in clearing behaviour than single malt or UJSSM as they clear up quite well if degased and given some time to rest..

Let it be a good lesson learned..

Mars

How many days should it rest to settle? All batches are probably different I bet. A few days usually does it or a week or more? I did just notice in another thread about letting it rest a couple weeks to clear to prevent puking. Right you are, I got in a hurry. Everytime we make a mistake we learn from it. Thanks for your response.

[StillerBoy]

How many days should it rest to settle? All batches are probably different I bet.

It all depends on the fermentation process used, the milling of the grains, and paying attention to Ph and fermenting temp.. there is always a favorite temp and ph that the yeast will do their job at best.. and when they do, the clearing is quite easy.. if it done outside that area, then clearing takes longer.. why that is I can not explain, all I know that if I follow that process, clearing is always easy..

From what I learned over the years, no matter if it's a wash or mash, fermenting temp, followed by Ph, and by the grain bill mix, some require extra time..

Most of my ferment are done in 3 - 3.5 days.. followed by clearing on it own for 2 - 3 days (the grain will settle down), then racked off trub/grain bed, degassed well, then allow to rest for 3 - 4 days before stripping..

Keeping in mind that on all my mash batches, I rack the clear, then pressed the grains, then filter the pressed liquid through a geotex fabric..

Mars

[cayars]

Unless I'm making a bourbon that I like on grain I do most of my whiskey's fermented off grain. So I lauter/sparge before fermenting. This is essentially squeezing before fermenting vs after.

3 to 3.5 days later when my SG hits the basement I will degas by slowly stirring the wort to get the gas out. Next day I'll rack it into the boiler and run it with no problem. I can reuse the yeast bed (no grains in there) for the next batch so it starts up quickly, has the dead yeast for nutrients...

[6 Row Joe]

Someone mentioned their stainless steel element. I haven't been using mine which could be an issue. I will start assembling my pulse width modulator tomorrow and I can use my stainless element again. I still need to degas and let the all grain rest. I got in too big of a hurry. I used some flaked corn too which added to my problem.

[fizzix]

I operate an 8-gallon, 1500-watt electric in my (pretty much open-space) basement.

Three things start up at once when I begin:
•The 1500-watt (modified, non-cycling) hot plate for the boiler
•The recirculating water pump to the Liebig condenser from an open 60-quart cooler
•A box fan blowing over the surface of the water in the cooler

My wife can detect an odor a mile away in a wind storm, so I've called her down to the basement
at different times along the stilling process, and not once has she red-flagged any smells (except for mine )
whether I've asked about them or not. Believe me, she'd tell me. Oh Lord would she tell me.

Even the hot plate doesn't stink up the place. My amateur conclusion is, with both the condenser & box fan operating,
any escaping fumes are quickly dissipated and diminished.

This has been my procedure for two years without any detectable issue.

[GCB3]

Slow42, I always put the PC outlet in a jar of water when I turn the heat on and note the time bubbles start. This does several thing for me. Most importantly it proves that I’m not heating a closed system. It gives me a visual hint that the system is getting active. I find many of the heat up odors are condensed in the jar. By keeping a record of previous runs, you have an idea of when a similar charge should begin bubbling. If it dloesnt start as expected, it’s time to do a o system check. Several times I’ve noticed a delay and then found a seal leak.

It’s really easy to do and I think it’s a good safety check. (I’m also a nerd!)

[6 Row Joe]

Slow42, I always put the PC outlet in a jar of water when I turn the heat on and note the time bubbles start. This does several thing for me. Most importantly it proves that I’m not heating a closed system. It gives me a visual hint that the system is getting active. I find many of the heat up odors are condensed in the jar. By keeping a record of previous runs, you have an idea of when a similar charge should begin bubbling. If it dloesnt start as expected, it’s time to do a o system check. Several times I’ve noticed a delay and then found a seal leak.

It’s really easy to do and I think it’s a good safety check. (I’m also a nerd!)

That's a great idea.

[J0hnni3]

Slow42. While on the subject I will throw one more tidbit of info out there for you that is loosely related to this subject.

If you ever see true smoke coming from your condenser, that is likely a “scorch” caused by solids burning on your element. The first and only time I saw this, I thought my condenser was not cooling enough and that I was seeing alcohol vapor escaping. I quickly checked cooling and the condenser had good flow and the output was still cold. Then I noticed the vapor was white, not clear like alcohol vapor. Then I noticed the smell. Ouch!

Otis

Just one other warning, cause it was happening to me. I was having "smoke" coming from my condenser, despite cooling water being on. It ended up being that my condenser was too large a diameter and was allowing vapor to pass down the center still in vapor form. I was able to solve it by advise on other threads, both to set the condenser at an angle, but also to use 100% copper scrubbies to disrupt the smooth air flow. Worked a charm.