All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

All about grains. Malting, smoking, grinding and other preparations.
Which grains are hot, which are not.

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still_stirrin
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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by still_stirrin » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:39 pm

Temperature?

You could pull some of the grist and do a decoction and then add it back to the mash tun to warm it up again. Nobody said, “brewing is easy”. Rather, it’s an art!
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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Deplorable » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:01 pm

Honest_Liberty wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:52 am
I'm having difficulty with the math on this, to determine target wash abv of 8%. Base 2 row pale malt is right at $1/lb on the LHBS discount program.
Feed steam rolled barley is $.30/lb
The pale brewers malt is going to be far superior in flavor and quality, I would assume.
I'm still going to purchase malted rye which is $1.79/lb.

I'm going to have to split my large batch recipe up into (2) 15 gallon ferments, to account for enough headspace and with good conversion, I'm planning on 15 gallons product to strip.

I'm ballparking, and also, my apologies for the glut of posts. I know I'm overwhelming at times but I'm hyper focused on figuring this all out.

2.25 lbs/gallon, 30 gallon ferment = 67.5 lbs grain

54 corn, but may just make it 50 and up both the base malt and rye.

50lbs corn = $11.49, for now
8.75 lbs American 2-row base malt = ~$9
8.75 lbs malted rye = ~$16

That's $36.5 to make, I presume, a 30 gallon wash at approximately 8%, if I do everything right once I conquer Booner's. Then adding the malted grains with added enzymes ought to all but guarantee high conversion.

My aim is to fill a five gallon barrel, or carboy with oak sticks. I already have 2 gallons, plus probably another .75 gallon after I finish stripping what will be 9 gallons total, added to the 4 gallons of low wines at 40%.

So it's basically $73 and a heck of a lot less hassle, likely better results, and a much higher likelihood of success, vs $60, to complete my first all grain bourbon recipe to fill 5 gallons. Call me lazy, but this is my approach. Time is money, $13 is money well spent to improve your chances of success
The more I research, the more I attempt to work with feed grains, the more I read from all of you who have been doing this since I was knee high to a grasshopper, the more it just makes sense to pay for malted grains to round out the bourbon recipe.

I assume the same when I start making scotch style whiskeys. I would have suggested to you that you attempt single malts before a bourbon

Thanks for responding so frequently and not expressing anger at my unrelenting posts on the matter

I applaude you for attempting bourbon before a sctotch style whiskey. After cooking up a few large volume washes of booze from a 50# bag of Sweet Feed and sugar to get my head around fermenting large volumes, before I moved to filling a barrel of Single Malt whiskey. Then moved on to bourbon.

Keep plugging away at this man, you'll get it eventually.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Durhommer » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:10 pm

It took me five or six all grain turned sugar wash before I got it down
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by dukethebeagle120 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:19 pm

Its not complicated.
Use scd large batch approach and your good to go.
getting every last ounce is ok
But with his method even if your off
You still get good yield
And large batches give you plenty of aging stock
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by shadylane » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:13 pm

I don't think Novozymes Amylase AG300L is the best enzyme for mashing.
It appears to be used to increase the fermentability of slightly under ripe fruit.
http://www.ebiosis.co.kr/Novozymes%20Pr ... 20300L.pdf

I think SEBamyl GL would do a better job
https://enzymash.biz/download/sebamylgl.pdf

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Honest_Liberty » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:07 pm

shadylane wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:13 pm
I don't think Novozymes Amylase AG300L is the best enzyme for mashing.
It appears to be used to increase the fermentability of slightly under ripe fruit.
http://www.ebiosis.co.kr/Novozymes%20Pr ... 20300L.pdf

I think SEBamyl GL would do a better job
https://enzymash.biz/download/sebamylgl.pdf
It's funny because at first I didn't know about the differences, but over the course of today and all the input, I would agree with you. I kept trying to read their data sheet. When I ordered it, it just said gluco amalayse.


I responded to others but I've been having issues with my posts, posting. Maybe I'm posting too much? Of course though, thanks with all respect to everyone weighing in and helping.

I'ma head over to the LHBS and see if they have some tomorrow after I check in the morning to see if it worked at all. Then I'm ordering sebamyl go online in bulk
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Honest_Liberty » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:13 am

Yep. 24 hours later. 1.050 with unconverted starches. Bummer.

Off to mile high. Hopefully the powder gluco works as well.
https://milehidistilling.com/product/gl ... nzyme-1lb/
Description
Gluco Amylase Enzyme 1lb
Gluco Amylase Enzyme 1lb is a Gluco amylase enzyme produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Rhizopus; (much stronger action than glucoamylase produced by Aspergillus Niger) this enzyme is food-grade, Kosher-certified, Non-synthetic and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. GA-100, an exo-alpha-amylase, hydrolyses 1.4 alpha-glucosidic bonds of liquefied starch. The prolonged action of GA-100 produces large amounts of glucose. This means that this process converts all the long chain sugars produced by BA-100 into short chain sugars that the yeast will love. BA-100 and GA-100 enzymes are the exact same enzymes used by both the beverage alcohol and fuel alcohol industries. These are very concentrated and just 1/10 pound of each of these enzymes will break down 100 pounds of grain or starch into fermentable glucose. Please store these enzymes refrigerated in zip lock bags.
So this'll be fun. Going to come home and reheat enough of the liquid to get to 150° and add back with the gluco.


Then, because I'm insane. I'm going to strain my bourbon gumballhead that had poor conversion, originally discussed on this thread, I'm going:
Squeeze and rinse grains
package into workable loads
Freeze bags in my chest freezer
Dry out with box fan and window screen in spare bedroom
Run dried grains through the kitchenaid mill and when I have them all ground, do another fermentation to pull the rest of my residual sugar that was left behind.

That, or what probably makes more sense is to toss it at the cabin in the spring for the wildlife. I'm just not sure the residual sugars are sufficient to waste that much effort for the cost, and the high temp will, I assume, cause tannic flavors to taint the batch.

Either way I have an interested party who wants to assist
image11.jpg
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Honest_Liberty » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:03 pm

Here's some notes from this batch:
7.5 lbs triple roller milled and half setting kitchenaid mill, to 6 gallons water, 1.050 with 4.75 gallon mark in the fermenter when pitched with yeast. I'm a bit shocked at that reduction but maybe I missed the math.

I'm going to purchase 5 lbs of malted rye tomorrow and attempt a 2.25 gallon mash to hopefully hit 6.5% and cool it and add it to this ferment, which will provide me 8-9 gallons to strip... And added to the 4.25 I have at 4% ought to give me 6 gallons at 40% for a full AG spirit run later the week.
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by shadylane » Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:51 pm

Honest_Liberty wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:13 am
Yep. 24 hours later. 1.050 with unconverted starches. Bummer.

So this'll be fun. Going to come home and reheat enough of the liquid to get to 150° and add back with the gluco.

It's going to take alpha enzymes to convert starch.
Once all the starch has been chopped into bite sized bits by the alpha.
Gluco can then convert the dextrins into glucose sugar.

On a side note
I'd feed the spent grains to the critters.

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Honest_Liberty » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:09 am

shadylane wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:51 pm
Honest_Liberty wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:13 am
Yep. 24 hours later. 1.050 with unconverted starches. Bummer.

So this'll be fun. Going to come home and reheat enough of the liquid to get to 150° and add back with the gluco.

It's going to take alpha enzymes to convert starch.
Once all the starch has been chopped into bite sized bits by the alpha.
Gluco can then convert the dextrins into glucose sugar.

On a side note
I'd feed the spent grains to the critters.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. Not worth the effort to attempt to recycle.
I used the high temp alpha at 175°F in the cooler with the correct pH range. 6 gallons, 7.5 lbs thrice roller milled, then once KitchenAid miller set to halfway. I'll probably go 75% fine mill next time. I still want to stick with 1.5 lb/gallon until I know for certain I've extracted everything I can, then I'll move up to 2/gallon. I'm not sure how much less fermentable sugar feed grains have than quality human corn
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Honest_Liberty » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:34 pm

Pretty tired of failing and getting crap extraction.
1.033 for 2lb/gallon for malted rye?! Ugh

It appears without effectively brewing a beer with a hot liquor tank, mash tun, and sparging, that I'm never going to get anywhere near a respectable mash efficiency. Which means I'm throwing my money down the toilet.

There has got to be a balance somewhere. I dunno. But I'm seriously such and tired of well below typical expected results
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Honest_Liberty » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:22 pm

shadylane wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:19 pm
Honest_Liberty
Here's a possible recipe. Using your grain bill.
Mix the 42 pounds of ground corn with 20 gallons of boiling water in insulated 55 gallon barrel.
Wait until the temp has cooled to just under 190f.
Vigorously mix in the HTL and cover the barrel. Let it sit over night.

The next day, add a gallon of backset to lower the pH for the Gluco.
Measure the temp and add 20 gallons of water that's hot or cool enough to get the mash temp 150.
Mix in the Gluco, 30 pounds crushed feed oats and 9lbs malted rye. Stir occasionally .
Give it several hours for conversion, then quickly cool to yeast pitching temp.

I'd recommend a small test batch before going whole hog :wink:

Yep. I've been testing smaller versions since then. I'm doing very many things incorrectly, I'm positive, which is lending to my frustration. I am going to attempt to salvage the spent grains, and because of sheer stubbornness, I'm going to freeze and then dry and mill them in 5 gallon test batches in my igloo coolers to see if I can extract more untapped sugars from the grains.

I'll consider it a time experiment since I've already got the grains. If I can get 2-3% ABV, then I'll know I can improve and it's basically the mill size at that point.
Going to recalibrate my pH meter even though it's been consistent with my tap water this whole time
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste

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Re: All grain woes. Something's gotta give here

Post by Bee » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:26 pm

I think you are going to find that pH is key.

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