Interesting read about mashing

All about grains. Malting, smoking, grinding and other preparations.
Which grains are hot, which are not.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Interesting read about mashing

Post by shadylane »

I've seen these charts posted before, this must be were they came from.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
srs787
Bootlegger
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:03 pm

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by srs787 »

Yes it is a good read. Very important if you want your AG to finish at 1.005 or at 1.025. Good post. srs
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by shadylane »

I've seen the chart re-posted many times, but couldn't understand why un-malted barley had three different temps.
With the words of the OP to go with the graphs. It makes more sense. And leads to more head scratching.
User avatar
Red Rim
Trainee
Posts: 806
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:14 am
Location: Orygun

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by Red Rim »

Damn fine article! I am going to have to read this again, when I am totally sober.

One point I gleaned, and has been mentioned in the last week or so on this forum, is that a lower pH helps break things down in your mash. Therefore using hot backset can help breakdown your corn into starches and aid in the enzymatic reaction.
There is no such thing as a stupid question....... Unless you didn't research it first.
User avatar
MichiganCornhusker
retired
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:24 am

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Very nice, thanks for posting
Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...
okie
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:33 am
Location: Lost in America

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by okie »

I just read this. Damn fellas, this is like my college courses. I'm going to have to digest this slowly.
Never try to argue or reason with idiots and morons, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
DSmith78
Swill Maker
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:33 am

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by DSmith78 »

Nearly 5 years late to the party but it's one I'm glad to have found. Great article which I have bookmarked.
There are three types of people in this world - those who can do maths and those who cannot.
User avatar
Old_Brian
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 2:10 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by Old_Brian »

Thanks for your comment DSmith78 for a new member like me, having these interesting nuggets bubbled up to the surface and shoved under my nose is a real help. Shadylane, thanks for the original post.
T500 boiler, copper dome, with reflux column or Alembic pot still head.
My main aim is to create something like 'Scotch' using grain mashes and aging on oak in glass.

A few videos can be found at my YouTube channel 'Hobby Distiller'.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by shadylane »

Your welcome
User avatar
DSmith78
Swill Maker
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:33 am

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by DSmith78 »

I'm also a newbie and there are sooo many of those nuggets here!
There are three types of people in this world - those who can do maths and those who cannot.
cayars
Distiller
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:08 am

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by cayars »

I'd take what you learn from that article then follow it up with more research as that article and the graph is flawed. It has the wrong temps listed for gelatinization, etc. Anyone around here that does all grains will tell you 77 C is no where near hot enough for corn to properly gelatinize. You would want to bring your corn up to a boil for example or pour your corn into a rolling boil water (if using cooler or unheated mash tuns).

Lots of good info here on the forums about this type of thing.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
User avatar
Single Malt Yinzer
Trainee
Posts: 973
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

There's nothing wrong with the article from a science perspective, but it doesn't talk about the practical part of it. Corn will gelatinize at the temps listed, just really slowly. You're right, boiling will make the process go faster. It's even noted in the chart that it works better being boiled.
User avatar
8Ball
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1401
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:12 am

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by 8Ball »

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion
pH and Brewing Water
A major source of confusion that commonly arises in the discussion of mash pH is that it changes with temperature. Mashes behave like weak acids and they disassociate more (i.e. free more H+ ions) as the temperature rises. It has been shown that the pH of a mash at 65C is about 0.35 pH units lower and about 0.45 units lower at mash out temperatures (75C) compared to its pH at room temperature (25C) [Briggs, 2004]. The pH optimum of α-amylase has been determined at 5.3 in room temperature experiments. But it mashing its optimum is commonly reported to be 5.7. The reason for this is that the mash pH is commonly measured in a cooled sample of the mash. Measurement at mash temperatures is possible but common pH testing equipment like test strips and pH meters are designed for pH measurement in cooled samples.
The proper mash pH does more than allowing for optimal enzyme activity it also provides the basis for the boil and cast-out wort pH. The boil pH tends to be at or slightly higher than the mash pH and the cast-out wort pH is 0.1 - 0.2 units lower than the boil pH.


So my take on the above is unless your pH meter can take readings above room temperatures, you need to adjust your readings accordingly per the above reference. If you allow your mash sample to cool down when using high temp enzymes for cooking corn, then a reading of 5.3 at ambient is actually around 5.65-5.75 in the pot.

Based on this info, I have been using my ambient readings to add calcium carbonate for buffering unnecessarily. Please correct me if this is not the case.

8B
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
cayars
Distiller
Posts: 1687
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:08 am

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by cayars »

That sounds about right. You pretty much always want to assume measurements are taking at room temperature unless specified otherwise, then adjusted from that depending on instrument calibration temp.

I take samples in little 200 ML (half pint) mason jars which are perfect for this. I just put them in a bath of cold water (bucket, bowl, etc) and they cool right off. Obviously the closer you get to room temp (or calibration temp) the less your result will be off so even if the temp is still higher then normal it puts you in a much closer ball park. I can then use the 200 ML sample for starch conversion checking, SG reading, PH or any other checks needed.

Most cheap PH meters probably shouldn't be used in hot temps anyway.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Tennessee_Spirits
Novice
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:45 am
Location: Memphis Tennessee

Re: Interesting read about mashing

Post by Tennessee_Spirits »

pH optimum is also different for bacterial enzymes. SEBStar Htl has optimum of 6.0. The literature did not specify the temperature so it was standard. Many pH meters have temperature compensation built in.
Post Reply