Sweet Corn is a Lie.

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MichiganCornhusker
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Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

I got a good deal on some day old sweet corn this week. I have shucked the ears, cut the kernels from the cobs and I now have about 30 lbs of frozen sweet corn.
I did some testing today to see how I can use it in a recipe. I have read that sweet corn is really still mostly starch, and a lot of water to boot.
I tested it 2 ways. I mashed some of it with simple liquid enzymes at 150F to see what I could get out of it without cooking it. I also boiled some up and added high temp enzymes to see if that would make a difference.
Both runs were mixed up at a ratio of 4 lbs sweet corn to 1 gallon of water.

The 150F simple mash came out at SG 1.024
The corn that I gelatinized came out at SG 1.044

Sweet corn definitely benefits from a good cooking.

I got 30 lbs of sweet corn from almost 200 ears. Normally I get about 45 lbs from around 120 ears of dried dent corn.
The sweet corn kernels are much smaller, and contain a lot of water.
If I'm looking at this right, I would need about 300 ears of sweet corn to get 45 lbs, and then would need to use 6 lbs sweet corn per gallon water to get my OG up to 1.066.
If I work at it, I can hit OG 1.066 with 2 lbs per gallon field corn.
So, I need 2-1/2 times more sweet corn ears to make up the same weight as dent corn, and then I need to use 3 times more to hit the same OG. 120 x 2.5 x 3 = 900.

Check me here, but that looks like I need 900 ears of sweet corn to get the same batch of whiskey I can make with 120 ears of dent corn.
Now that's ear math, it's not as bad as all that. Pound for pound, it looks like I need about 3 times as much sweet corn to make the same amount of hooch as I can make with dried cracked corn.
That means my 30# of carefully harvested sweet corn will be the equivalent of 10# of cracked corn.
(I haven't been drinking yet, but that doesn't mean my math makes sense)

Bottom line is that it takes a heck of a lot more ears of sweet corn to get what you will from regular dried cracked corn.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by jedneck »

You just talked me outta getting a truck load of sweet corn. But I might try it after it dries on the stalk as a malt.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by ga flatwoods »

MCH I bet field corn still green would yield the same results. Drying removes the water of course and concentrates the startches.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Good point, GA, I'm not really comparing yams to yams here.
If both are wet, or both are dry, they would probably perform closer to the same, pound for pound.
Although, I still think the cob count would need to go way up for the dried sweet corn just because the kernels are so much smaller, at least on the ears I got.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Appalachia-Shiner »

you know, I started to do the exact same thing last week. I HD googled "Sweet Corn" on here and found some info that says almost the same thing that You just Said.
I ate the damstuff instead of drinking it.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by shadylane »

This post reminds me of a failed experiment I did with field corn in the milk stage. It didn't work as good as I hoped.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

I'm going to continue with my plan to use the sweet corn.
The taste of the mash was quite different than the taste of my regular corn mashes and I am hoping that will carry over.
Still working out a recipe.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Boda Getta »

"I ate the damstuff instead of drinking it."

That sounds like a good plan also.

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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by NZChris »

I called in to a local furniture maker, ex USA, to get see if he could turn me an oak bung for my rapid ager (another story already here somewhere), and he said that "in another life" he hung out with a moonshiner who produced a prolific amount of shine, (and that is another story, too).

He said the absolute best shine his friend ever made was fresh sweetcorn & honey. Corn scraped off the cob, plus honey instead of sugar. Nectar of the Gods he reckoned.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by ga flatwoods »

I made wine once with frozen cream corn from the frozen food section of the grocery. Never cleared. Looked like yellow milk and tasted of hair spray! Worst wine ever! Well maybe not, the Japanese plumb or loquat some call it, tasted like prune juice wine!
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Jo Diesel »

I bet if you let it go til it was totally dry like they do field corn then shell it you would have a lot better results. It gets a lot more starch as it dries down.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

NZChris wrote:He said the absolute best shine his friend ever made was fresh sweetcorn & honey. Corn scraped off the cob, plus honey instead of sugar. Nectar of the Gods he reckoned.
Hmm, thanks for this idea, I do have a gallon of honey that has been sitting on a shelf since last fall...
ga flatwoods wrote:I made wine once with frozen cream corn from the frozen food section of the grocery. Never cleared. Looked like yellow milk and tasted of hair spray!
Cream corn wine? :sick: Maybe shoulda added a little sugar and run it, sounds like it would have made a nice grappa!
Jo Diesel wrote:I bet if you let it go til it was totally dry like they do field corn then shell it you would have a lot better results. It gets a lot more starch as it dries down.
I wish I knew more about the whole corn process. My understanding is that right now the fresh corn is busy converting its sugars to starches so that next year when it begins sprouting it can start up a reverse process.
It makes sense to me that I need to use more corn per gallon than dried corn because the corn is still wet and contains a lot of water already. I'm liking the idea of the sweet corn honeyhead though...

Thanks for the input, guys!
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Halfbaked »

A long time ago an old man told me that all grain sweet corn shine was the best shine he had ever had. I am not 100% sure the same guy said that but I also remember someone saying the conversion sugar to starch in the drying stage was important. Obviously then you would have to mash like dent corn after that point. If you have extra at the end of the year a good project to compare dry sweet corn to dry dent corn. That being said I talked to Captain Hooch the other day and he was raising blue corn in his garden. I sent him a PM. Hopefully he can shed some light if there is any to be shed. Good luck and another great post my MCH.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Thanks, Halfbaked, that makes two reviewers that suggest the flavor might be different than regular field corn.
In my readings I had only run across one person that commented on the flavor, and he said that there wasn't much difference from his regular whiskey.
I'm getting my corn from a guy that has been selling it for years and takes great pride in his corn. He wants to only sell the freshest eh can, so picks throughout the day and discards what doesn't sell. I'm getting the discards cheap.
Undaunted, I am going to continue picking up more corn for the next few weeks as I drive past his place. Like potatoes, the fact that it takes more sweet corn to get a good OG just means I need to get more!
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Havenor »

I loved reading that, and thanks for the info, makes most of us feel better about using the cracked corn. I was actually just wondering about what sort of difference it would make since I have access to sweet corn. Thank you, one man sacrificed his time so the rest of us could screw off and do something else.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by DFitz »

Let's look at these calculations from a different perspective. It cost me about 35 cents to drive to my local feed store and buy 200lb of cracked corn for a batch big enough to fill a 5 gal barrel. Not sure of the price of corn right now so we won't go there. This doesn't seem to make much sense as looking out across my back yard I see this
Image
Still, harvesting, transporting, drying, transporting again and finally milling I find the same corn probably about 10 mos. later at my local feed store. Price of 200lb of cracked corn to me is a minimal investment.

Taking quality in to account, to date, the best bourbon I've made was done using #2 Dent from a source in Little Rock AR where I procured 200lb of whole corn.
Image
Luckily I was on a work trip so it cost me less than 30 cents to drive to pick up the corn.
Just for shits & giggles I also picked up 200lb of dear corn and matched it u to the fancy #2 Dent. There was no appreciable difference.

Then last year I ran a barrel of local corn (probably gas dried) and found no difference in the conversion. The bourbon made last year is a year younger than the batch made from the fancy whole grain shown above but is coming into its own and tasting just as well. I haven't yet used the nasty old moldy corn typical to the ethanol industry and hopefully won't need to.

Consensus, corn is good and better under the best growing conditions. I really think gas drying affects the corn some how but can't prove it as both bourbons are probably equally good given the time constraints.
Use what's available but eat the eatin corn and drink the drinkin corn if at all possible.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Justafarmer »

There are really four different types is sweet corn. Open pollinated, nonhybrid types have the least amount of sugar, and that sugar starts to turn to starch as soon as the ear is pulled from the stalk. Basic hybrids have more sugar, but it also starts converting as soon as it's picked. This is probably the type that the farmer had. He wants to sell it the day it's picked, because it loses most of its sweetness withnono a day or so of being picked, unless it's frozen. Sugar enhanced varieties have even more sugar and a longer "shelf life" before losing much sweetness, up to two or three days. Super sweet varieties have the longest "shelf life".

For maximum sweetness, corn must be harvested at the peak of ripeness early in the morning, before the sun starts to dry it out. It must be processed or cooked and eaten soon after to get the max sweetness. I planted a sugar enhanced variety this year for our freezer and for making UJ with. I haven't started a wash with it yet, so I don't know how much it'll contribute to the ferment, but I'd guess it'll be a significant amount.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Truckinbutch »

Old folks here loved Bloody Butcher . Picked some for corn on cob during milk stage and let the rest dry down . Gristed some for cornbread which I know worked well . Fed critters on the farm and made some good drinkin with the rest . Tryin to ferment green corn I ain't to sure about .
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by masonsjax »

I'm a little late to this discussion, but suppose you first gelatinize then let it cool to 150F and add liquid enzymes? I would think that would maximize the yield. Although I'm not very familiar with the mechanism and potential of high temp enzymes, alpha and beta amylase certainly do what we need. Maybe worth another test.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

DFitz wrote:Use what's available but eat the eatin corn and drink the drinkin corn if at all possible.
Yep, I think I will end up agreeing with that. My sweet corn is still in the freezer, so I can't report in with any results yet. I got my sweet corn very cheap, but it still ended up costing a lot more than if I had just got my regular field corn.

masonsjax wrote:I'm a little late to this discussion, but suppose you first gelatinize then let it cool to 150F and add liquid enzymes? I would think that would maximize the yield. Although I'm not very familiar with the mechanism and potential of high temp enzymes, alpha and beta amylase certainly do what we need. Maybe worth another test.
I plan to do just that. I'm going to treat it like any other whole corn and cook it with high temp enzymes, and then mash it at 140's F. I'm pretty sure I'm going to add some honey to this one, that idea of sweet corn honey shine is too much to pass up trying.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by rager »

MichiganCornhusker wrote:
DFitz wrote:Use what's available but eat the eatin corn and drink the drinkin corn if at all possible.
Yep, I think I will end up agreeing with that. My sweet corn is still in the freezer, so I can't report in with any results yet. I got my sweet corn very cheap, but it still ended up costing a lot more than if I had just got my regular field corn.

masonsjax wrote:I'm a little late to this discussion, but suppose you first gelatinize then let it cool to 150F and add liquid enzymes? I would think that would maximize the yield. Although I'm not very familiar with the mechanism and potential of high temp enzymes, alpha and beta amylase certainly do what we need. Maybe worth another test.
I plan to do just that. I'm going to treat it like any other whole corn and cook it with high temp enzymes, and then mash it at 140's F. I'm pretty sure I'm going to add some honey to this one, that idea of sweet corn honey shine is too much to pass up trying.

honey and corn shine does sound pretty damn good. do you have any idea of how much corn and honey you are going to use for your recipe?
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

rager wrote:honey and corn shine does sound pretty damn good. do you have any idea of how much corn and honey you are going to use for your recipe?
Not sure yet. I have had a gallon of honey laying around for a year now. I have over 30 pounds of sweet corn frozen.
My first thought is to mash my corn at 2lbs/gal and then add the gallon of honey and add more water if necessary to get near 1.065 SG. I might even get a second gallon of honey if it makes sense for making this once I get a better handle on what the recipe ratios should be.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Halfbaked »

MCH what do you think about 4lb corn per gal and then dilute to hit your target. I saw where Jimbo had a honey mead going. Maybe he could give advice on the meade. Just a thought???????
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by rager »

MichiganCornhusker wrote:
rager wrote:honey and corn shine does sound pretty damn good. do you have any idea of how much corn and honey you are going to use for your recipe?
Not sure yet. I have had a gallon of honey laying around for a year now. I have over 30 pounds of sweet corn frozen.
My first thought is to mash my corn at 2lbs/gal and then add the gallon of honey and add more water if necessary to get near 1.065 SG. I might even get a second gallon of honey if it makes sense for making this once I get a better handle on what the recipe ratios should be.

that all makes sense to me. good luck. i bet it will turn out awesome. keep us updated . im going to keep my eye out for honey.... for the right price
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Finally dug the sweet corn out of the freezer yesterday.
I gave it one pass through my Corona mill while it was still frozen and it ground it up into something pretty fine that resembled a dry pie dough.
I diluted it to about 7 lbs sweet corn per gallon, heated it up to 150F, and added liquid enzymes. After an hour I got an SG reading of about 1.030.
Then I added some malted barley and mashed for another hour. Then added a gallon of honey. Ended up around SG 1.080.
I added ice to cool it down to about 80F and ended up with an OG of 1.065. Pitched US-05.
Recipe ended up being 45 lbs sweet corn, 10 lbs malted barley, 1 gallon honey, and about 16 gallons of water. I'll keep y'all posted.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Brutal »

Nice MC!

I have resisted posting this for months now.. Every time I see this thread.. Excuse me but:
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Ha, I actually feel a little bit bad about the title of this thread now that the fermentation is under way and smelling/tasting so dang good.
Sweet corn isn't a lie, it is what it is. I'll be going back to my tried and true dried field corn when it comes time to (hopefully someday) fill a 5 gallon barrel, but I'm excited to see how this batch turns out.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by rager »

good luck. is this recipe the one someone mentioned that it was the best damn corn likker they ever had?
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

Post by Salmoneater22 »

Now, I'm new on here but in my opinion popcorn is the better choice for corn whiskey. I like the way it enhances a good flick at the Beju on Friday nights.
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Re: Sweet Corn is a Lie.

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MichiganCornhusker wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:57 am Finally dug the sweet corn out of the freezer yesterday.
I gave it one pass through my Corona mill while it was still frozen and it ground it up into something pretty fine that resembled a dry pie dough.
I diluted it to about 7 lbs sweet corn per gallon, heated it up to 150F, and added liquid enzymes. After an hour I got an SG reading of about 1.030.
Then I added some malted barley and mashed for another hour. Then added a gallon of honey. Ended up around SG 1.080.
I added ice to cool it down to about 80F and ended up with an OG of 1.065. Pitched US-05.
Recipe ended up being 45 lbs sweet corn, 10 lbs malted barley, 1 gallon honey, and about 16 gallons of water. I'll keep y'all posted.
Hey MCH
I am resurrecting this thread because I want to make a “Sweet Carmel Corn Bourbon”
My plan was to use 70% frozen sweet corn, 25% Briess malted white wheat and 5% Special B
I would mash the corn first at 190f with SeBrew-HT for two to three hours than crash to 145f and add the rest of my grains and some SebMalt-Super. Hold at 145f for two hours than crash to 72f and finish off with US-05.

My question is per pound of frozen sweet corn how much do I count as grain and how much do I count as water?
The final recipe you posted above, what was the total gallons?

Thanks in advance
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