Tobacco?

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thatguy1313
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Tobacco?

Post by thatguy1313 »

So I was sitting on the porch drinking some partial mash whiskey and smoking a pipe of Irish oak, enjoying the way the flavors of smoke and drink intermingle and compliment each other. When I thought, "Hey I wonder if I could mash with tobacco leaves?" So I got to looking and it looks like certain types of tobacco contain up to 20% sugars. Since using store bought tobacco wouldn't be very economically feasible, I've started growing a few plants. Theyre a type of Virginia tobacco that I plan on curing in my smokehouse once the plants are big enough. Anybody ever tried using tobacco in a mash before? If so how did it work out? What was there flavor like? This will be my first ferment that isn't just a small deviation of a tried and true recipe so any tips would be welcome.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by shadylane »

BAD IDEA.
Nicotine is poisonous
Sorry for shouting at you. :oops:
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by GrassHopper »

I chew, so tobacco has a place in my heart. Well it is prolly placed in a lot of other places as well. Don't wanna go there. If'n it, (tobacco leaf) has some fermenting capabilities....well, that might jus be worth lookin' at, no? So, the question is....would the toxics come through in the distillation? Seems like a viable question? How bout some real science, not just speculation. Is not everything we drink, poison?
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by StillLearning1 »

I think there's a brand of beer being made with other smokeable plants closer to the hops family so maybe its a possibility. Sounds very interesting!!!!
But what the heck do I know.....I am still learning.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by thatguy1313 »

Hmmm, you raise an interesting question. I know (don't ask how) that you can step the nicotine from the leaves, but would enough nicotine make it into the wash to hurt you? And what is nicotine's evaporation point? Worth researching but I'm not giving up.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by DAD300 »

There liqueurs out there with a tobacco/nicotine maceration added.

http://www.bestabsinthe.com/perique.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

"Ivanabitch Traditional Tobacco Vodka features a bold taste of smoky vanilla blended with sweet caramel.

http://www.alcademics.com/2013/11/with- ... drink.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by aceswired »

shadylane wrote:BAD IDEA.
Nicotine is poisonous
Sorry for shouting at you. :oops:
If he's using a handful of leaves as an adjunct, the nic would be negligible. We already smoke, vape, chew, and patch it. Even if 100 percent comes across in the distillation, it could be no worse then chewing a like amount.

My guess is that it won't impart the desired flavor, though. Perhaps a maceration with neutral? Ethanol pulls little to no nic out of the leaf, so no worry there.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by thatguy1313 »

That may be a better idea but I still want to try to ferment it. I don't think much, if any, nicotine would come over through distillation. I just ran a big batch of uj through my CCVM so I'll try macerating some flavored, stuff bought stuff in a jar of that. Now it's just a waiting game until the plants mature.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by MDH »

The leaf of Tobacco contains ammonia. Is the leaf the part of the plant which contains the sugars you're speaking of? Because if so, you would definitely want to dry it out first.

Why not go for Carob instead, which is 50% sugars? To me, good Cuban tobacco has always smelled slightly like carob.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by pythonshine »

Some excellent points made. I have little knowledge of distillation right now, but I do feel safe in agreeing with aceswired. Although I think that the flavor we get from burning (smoking) tobacco, will altogether different from what we would get from a maceration. I imagine that he level of smoke will play a huge part in your flavor (obviously I know). HDNB should have some info that could help, or any from the cigars thread for that matter. I will be watching intently, just another to the list eh? keep on keepin.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by Jolly_Roger »

I know we are not supposed to push suppliers. However have a look at http://www.leafonly.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow they have a bunch of "other" varieties of tobacco that should be lower in nicotine and higher in flavour. For the record I grow Virginia gold and cure it for smoking, it also works well steeped in water as an insecticide
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by IanD »

It's been done before mate. http://www.bestabsinthe.com/perique.htm

Don't worry about the nicotine. None of it will come over.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by IanD »

shadylane wrote:BAD IDEA.
Nicotine is poisonous
Sorry for shouting at you. :oops:
It boils at 247°C. Nothing is going to come over with water and alcohol.

DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE POSTING MISINFORMATION.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by pythonshine »

Easy IanD, nicotine is poisonous therefore it is not misinformation. Besides airing on the side of caution is a practice that we look for in this hobby.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by cuginosgrizzo »

Also, water boils a 100C but it is present in our distillate in great quantity at lower temperatures. Are you ready to risk your life on the fact that it will not carry over?

Bear in mind that 3% of dry weight of tobaccco is nicotine. If you ferment 1kg/tobacco per gallon you get 30gr nicotine that might be in each gallon of your wash. Say that 1 percent only goes in the distillate, it is 300mg nicotine in your distillate, in say, a quart? Lethal dose is 30/60mg. So, drink one tenth of a quart and you are dead.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by shadylane »

IanD wrote:
shadylane wrote:BAD IDEA.
Nicotine is poisonous
Sorry for shouting at you. :oops:
It boils at 247°C. Nothing is going to come over with water and alcohol.

DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE POSTING MISINFORMATION.
Nicotine is poisonous, and I don't know how much will make it into the distillate.
You say " Nothing is going to come over with water and alcohol"
What research did you do to make sure of that?
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by greggn »

Whether or not the nicotine will carry over into the distillate I just can't imagine that the yeast will like it in the mash. I suspect the ferment, and the yeast, will die an early death.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by thatguy1313 »

Well I've got plenty of uj right now so I'll try a maceration and let you guys know how it comes out. I'm planning on using some bulk least from the store. Ones called autumn evening and ones just called 1Q.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by bearriver »

When an ingredient is unfamiliar to me, I first make a cup of tea from it.

That is something I learned from NZchris and I find it helpful when familiarizing myself with something new.

Edit: I just learned prisoners would sometimes use bacca tea to make themselves sick. It was a good method for gaining access to the infirmary. YMMV
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by MDH »

Holly Berries are distilled into spirits in France. They contain dangerous amounts of saponins, cafffeine, theobromine and bound cyanide. Very heavy compounds like nicotine will not make it through distillation in sufficient quantities to cause harm.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by RumDummyDrunk »

Since I recently quit smoking and still have the urges. I'd be very interested to see how that worked out. Been over a month now since I've had a cigarette and there are times when I'd be willing to slap my grandmother out of a wheelchair for one.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by Bagasso »

This video shows nicotine coming over during distillation.


This study questions the generally accepted toxicity of nicotine.
The literature reports on fatal nicotine intoxications suggest that the lower limit of lethal nicotine blood concentrations is about 2 mg/L, corresponding to 4 mg/L plasma, a concentration that is around 20-fold higher than that caused by intake of 60 mg nicotine. Thus, a careful estimate suggests that the lower limit causing fatal outcomes is 0.5–1 g of ingested nicotine, corresponding to an oral LD50 of 6.5–13 mg/kg. This dose agrees well with nicotine toxicity in dogs, which exhibit responses to nicotine similar to humans (Matsushima et al. 1995).
Tobacco can have up to 3% nicotine (some even higher) and 6.5 - 13 mg/kg means that someone weighing 200 lbs can reach that amount with as little as 17 grams of tobacco. That is not taking into account how bad of an experience lesser amounts would be.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by aceswired »

This is nonsense on its face. Any smoker or chewer has consumed FAR more than 17g. Where are all the death-by-nicotine reports?

Also, remember that any nic that does come over will be ingested, not inhaled. Far longer and harder trek into the bloodstream via the stomach.

Makers of natural tobacco extracts know how hard it is to pull nic out of a leaf. Ethanol does it exceedingly poorly. Glycol even worse. They jump through hoops just to get a fraction if what's in the leaf. The idea that we're suddenly going to solve this is absurd. If we get nic, it'll be a fraction. The idea that the bulk of what little is extracted will come over in distillation is in error. And the notion that ingesting that tiny fraction will put us at risk is preposterous.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by piperdave »

Stick to grain and sugar, water and yeast. Sheeeesh.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by thatguy1313 »

And never have new ideas or try anything different? No thanks. You may be happy doing the same thing over and over but some of us would rather try something new and advance the hobby. Remember, for every new idea that works, there were 100 failed experiments that didn't.
Back to the original subject, the maceration gained a ton of color just overnight. I'll probably have to filter the crap out of it, maybe even use charcoal filtrationto avoid stomach upset. We all know someone who swallowed their first time dipping and got sick. I'll have to do some more research to figure out what exactly causes the stomach problems and figure out how to remove it.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by Bagasso »

aceswired wrote:This is nonsense on its face. Any smoker or chewer has consumed FAR more than 17g. Where are all the death-by-nicotine reports?
Smoking destroys a lot of the nic. Chew is probably heavy because of casing.
Also, remember that any nic that does come over will be ingested, not inhaled. Far longer and harder trek into the bloodstream via the stomach.
Didn't read the study did you?
Makers of natural tobacco extracts know how hard it is to pull nic out of a leaf.
Not true. They just use small amounts in their mixes.

ETA: What they have a hard time doing is getting a favorable nic to flavor ratio.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by aceswired »

Bagasso wrote: Not true. They just use small amounts in their mixes.

ETA: What they have a hard time doing is getting a favorable nic to flavor ratio.
Wrong. Just full on wrong. It takes a special process to extract alkaloids from tobacco leaves with any efficiency. Simple maceration just does not liberate nicotine in appreciable quantity. Those who extract tobacco for vaping purposes add nicotine to the product, as the baseline nic level is so close to zero as to be negligible.

As for the distillation, we all know that boiling points are just a starting place. water boils at 212, but you get water at 190. Just less. With nicotine at 247, we might get some, especially in the tails. But rest assured that the VAST majority will be left in the boiler (and there won't be much to start with).

This is Chicken Little nonsense.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by aceswired »

A thread on nicotine extraction, and how soaks don't pull any appreciable amount:

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum ... an.342101/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Note the experiment where the level of extracted alkaloid is so low as to be unmeasurable.

To pull the alkoloids, which includes the nicotine, you have to jump through a LOT of hoops. Read up on WTA process for what it takes.

Sorry, but your post was just so objectively wrong that I had to follow up.

All that said, I think fermentation if tobacco is almost certainly going to fail to impart the desired flavor.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by Bagasso »

There were some papers by Lorillard, which seem to have been removed, where they actually show that a plain water extraction can get more than half the nicotine out of tobacco. They also used GC to test and not just titration with a home kit.

I know that those on ECF use a test that only measures freebase nic and they get results that don't take into account nicotine salts. If people took the time to freebase their extracts those tests would show different numbers. At 5-10% of the total mix it is pretty insignificant to NET makers. Making a mash out of tobacco is something else.

ETA: Although fermentation would probably degrade the nic. That was also shown in those Lorillard papers.

Believe what you want but around here the MO is to err on the side of caution.

@thatguy1313
Those tobaccos with 20% sugar have that amount because of casing.
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Re: Tobacco?

Post by aceswired »

Caution and paranoia aren't interchangeable. Between the massive inefficiency of extracting to the fact that distillation will remove an overwhelming percentage, there's not any reasonable cause for alarm here, as I see it.
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