General Rice discussion

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General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

Since Rice is inexpensive, readily available, and a relative easy grain to use for making alcoholic beverages. Humans have also been fermenting rice juice for over 6000years, Rice beverages have since evolved into what we have today. It's used in many types of alcoholic​ beverages either as a adjunct or as a sole ingredient. Rice is made into fine wines, home distilled traditional spirits, vodkas, whiskeys, beers, and more. A type of Rice liquor is currently the highest selling liquor in the world. It is also a great food for yeast, it ferments well, and figured since a few of us are using rice and there are more who are curious about using rice for distilling then why not have a thread dedicated to rice, With discussion on cooking rice, using different types of rice, recipes, history, methods enzymes/koji, and more regarding rice and liquor where rice is an ingredient.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by vqstatesman »

Howdy aircarbonarc,

I'm planning to do a rice ferment soon. I plan on boiling it and using SEBstar HLT and SEBamyl GL for conversion, fermenting and distilling on the grain. All will be done in my bain marie setup.

Hoping to achieve something that is close to neutral but carrying over some rice flavour. I'm hoping for some nice body/mouthfeel too. Sounds good in my head anyway :)

Just not sure which type of rice I plan on using. Also not sure what yeast, was thinking bakers or EC118.

Keen to hear about everyone else's rice experience.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by Swedish Pride »

vqstatesman wrote:Howdy aircarbonarc,

I'm planning to do a rice ferment soon. I plan on boiling it and using SEBstar HLT and SEBamyl GL for conversion, fermenting and distilling on the grain. All will be done in my bain marie setup.

Hoping to achieve something that is close to neutral but carrying over some rice flavour. I'm hoping for some nice body/mouthfeel too. Sounds good in my head anyway :)

Just not sure which type of rice I plan on using. Also not sure what yeast, was thinking bakers or EC118.

Keen to hear about everyone else's rice experience.
this is more or less how i did it, only i did still off the grain, I used a pot still, strip and run the whole shebang and it was not quite neutral, a bit flowery on the nose and super smooth.
I used barkers, works good.
I used the cheapest white rice i could get as it's has less flavour that jasmin or any other rice
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

I haven't yet tried a 100% rice batch, usually it's been 60/40 rice wheat with ec118, or 75/25 2row malt and rice. I have found rice really ferments out nice and clean and also the yeast readily consumes the sugars. It also seems to compliment other grains it's being used alongside with an added neutral lightness, or it even seems to make a really amazing flavor when mixed with wheat.

The types of rice I use is usually whatever is on sale, so American grown long grain, Thai scented Jasmin and whatever else, I did spot some sushi rice on sale at my local grocer which I'll try next. I have heard short grain rice contains more usable carbohydrates and long grain has a bit more protein but also does have alot of usable starch. I'm guessing rice might not contain all the nutrients loved by yeast I do always add a bit of DAP and some boiled leftover yeast for insurance purposes.

Has anyone else noticed that​ the 'rice beer' regardless of yeast seems to be on the acidic side after fermentation, and the backset seems to be in super low pH territory? It just seems a bit acidic compared to other grains when fermented.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by greggn »

Two months ago I ran an AG batch of jasmine rice. Sampling last night I thought it was somewhat astringent at my preferred drinking proof of 50% ABV. It's hard to describe ... not hot, as if I smeared some heads, but sharp and dry. After a few sips the melting ice brought the proof down a bit and it smoothed out nicely.

I have two more batches coming to the end of their 8 week "rest" so I'll be curious to see if it's a characteristic of fermenting and distilling jasmine rice or whether that batch was just a one-off.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

This is a beautiful documentary, shows traditional sake making. It's on Canadian Netflix so probably also on US Netflix.
http://www.birthofsake.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by BDF »

There's a pretty large thread on making rice wine simply on a homebrew site, covers a lot of the same topics I was reading here:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361095" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by vqstatesman »

Finally got around to putting down an all rice mash. I used 35KG in a 150 litre mash. I used my trusty sebstar enzymes and got an SG of 1.070 so I'm happy with that.

I decided to use the Chinese yeast balls. Which I have now learned is actually cultivated from rice. Slightly digressing here but I have also learned that the yeast balls also contain natural enzymes. So technically I didn't need my sebstar enzymes, however I'm sure they will make for a quicker ferment.

As a seperate experiment I also did a small 4KG rice cook up, no enzymes. I pitched the Chinese yeast balls into this too. I will keep this batch as sake rice wine, no distilling.

I have only just pitched my yeasts tonight but can't wait to see how this turns out.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by vqstatesman »

BDF wrote:There's a pretty large thread on making rice wine simply on a homebrew site, covers a lot of the same topics I was reading here:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361095" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Many thanks for sharing this link. Great info and actually inspired me to give sake a go :)
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

Has anyone used brown rice? I've never liked eating it much, but it has more flavor and ruffage which could be beneficial.

First of all since brown rice has the texture of small moth pupae it would certainly be less "gluey" and easier to handle than white rice. White rice however is pretty much just starch (80%) as per the sack of cheapo rice and all that seems to be leftover is some small white matter thats filtered out easily. Brown rice however would seem to have more ruffage so mashing and seprating the wort would be a bit easier.

Second, as much as I detest brown rice as a food, I'm thinking that it would give a little more flavor than white rice. White rice seems to add a complimentary neutral quality to a mash bill in my experience. Brown rice might actually be a more desirable ingredient in a whiskey as it would add more flavor and would compliment the other ingredients.

As for fermentation, well brown rice contains more nutrients so the yeast would be happier.

One of these theories have been proven so I'll have to get on that as soon as I have time. As well as do some research on brown rice in alcoholic beverages. Anyone have any experience or input?
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by fizzix »

aircarbonarc wrote:Has anyone used brown rice?
Just got done reading Yummyrum's yeast ball adventure which led me to this thread.
aircarbonarc if you're not wild about brown (unpolished) rice, I don't think distilled brown rice is going to change your mind for the better.
References: Kuroshu and this discussion (near end of article).
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by StillerBoy »

I do a rice shine, something in line to Uncle Remus Rice Vodka for some years now.. over time I have slowly changed from 30/70 rice/sugar to 60/40 recipe.. right now, the recipe for 6 gal total is 3 K calrose rice, 2 k white sugar with DAP, Epsom, cooked lee added for nutrient.. I now mill the rice, one pass in the corona set to cut the rice into about half it size, then mash it in 3 gal water, in the same style as mashing corn, (boil water to a hard boil, then add to the rice, let sit for an hour, then add the liquid HTL at 180*F, after having adjusted the PH, then at 140*F add the GL, and let it do its thing overnight.. this method usually gives me a .065 conversion, then add sugar, water, nutrients, give it a good stir, add baker's yeast, usually done in 5 days at 90*F.. I always adjust the Ph just fermentation for a 4.5, and for a finish wash to be above the 4.5 before distilling..

This recipe will give me, once fermented out, lots of milky sediment, sometime almost half, which is very hard or slow at settling.. what I do now is rack the clear top, pressed the balance, then filled it through the geotile fabric, and I end up with about a 2 liter lost overall..

Strip, then reflux spirit run for a 90% abv.. on a 7 gal spirit run reduced to 35%, I remove about 300 - 400 ml of heads, then into body, which will give me on average about 7 liter of 90%, with some compressed tails.. overall, very nice smooth fine at 45%..

I have yet to try a all rice mash, but slowly working in that direction.. I have made this recipe with long grain, calrose, and jasmine rice, my favorite is calrose, which gives me a much smoother overall finish..

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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by greggn »

> I have yet to try a all rice mash, but slowly working in that direction.

There's nothing about an all-rice mash to be frightened about ... it's actually quite easy. The amount of starch given up by rice is startling so your OG can be rather high with no more work than any other AG recipe. As noted, completed ferments do take longer to clear. Additionally, I've found that they benefit from longer "rests" before the flavor profiles stabilize and they're ready to drink.

Admittedly, I've only run jasmine rice because it's a staple in my home but it's a proven performer.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I'm on a no-carb diet (cept for the likker - ha ha!) so the two large bags of rice I have will not go to waste and I got some sake starter enzyme stuff from the LHBS. I'll look for yeast balls too but fine with us05. This sounds like a good neutral. I run a pot still only so should plan for a handful of runs through it washing w/water each time?

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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

I've had great results with rice, I've never done a full rice grain Bill, but I would like to attempt that soon. Usually I'm using 25-60% and found great results.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by Badmotivator »

FYI I just did a 100% rice mash with enzymes, and the ferment stuck. The pH had gotten down to like 3.6, and the yeast just went on strike. I am in the process of raising the pH back up with marble blocks, about which I will post soon on the Using Marble as a Buffer thread (win or lose). But I bring it up here to suggest that when using rice one ought to pay attention to the pH, and consider adding a buffer as insurance against an incomplete ferment.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by Swedish Pride »

Badmotivator wrote:FYI I just did a 100% rice mash with enzymes, and the ferment stuck. The pH had gotten down to like 3.6, and the yeast just went on strike. I am in the process of raising the pH back up with marble blocks, about which I will post soon on the Using Marble as a Buffer thread (win or lose). But I bring it up here to suggest that when using rice one ought to pay attention to the pH, and consider adding a buffer as insurance against an incomplete ferment.
What protocol did you use?
I did 100% plain white rice with enzymes and had no issues at all.
I had the simplest of protocols possible.
Boil water, add rice, add enzyme, wait, add second enzyme, wait, add bakers.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by Badmotivator »

Swedish Pride wrote: What protocol did you use?
I did 100% plain white rice with enzymes and had no issues at all.
I had the simplest of protocols possible.
Boil water, add rice, add enzyme, wait, add second enzyme, wait, add bakers.
Same here. 25 lbs rice in 13 gal water. Cook rice. Add enzymes at proper temps as the rice cools. Bakers yeast at 90F.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

Badmotivator wrote:FYI I just did a 100% rice mash with enzymes, and the ferment stuck. The pH had gotten down to like 3.6, and the yeast just went on strike. I am in the process of raising the pH back up with marble blocks, about which I will post soon on the Using Marble as a Buffer thread (win or lose). But I bring it up here to suggest that when using rice one ought to pay attention to the pH, and consider adding a buffer as insurance against an incomplete ferment.
Rice is acidic, I would like to know why it is and will enquire. It doesn't like acid when being cooked but when it ferments its like lemon juice. PH buffers seem to work wonders with rice and keeping that PH up.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by jonnys_spirit »

That's very interesting but not too surprising because Sake is a "rice wine" and white wines from grapes are down in the 3.2-3.4 range while reds may be a little bit higher in pH. Could probably use a wine yeast more suited to that ph range too or a specific sake yeast.

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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by thecontrolguy »

Dang, am ready to start a first-time rice experiment but cannot find a source of SebAMYL alpha and beta enzymes in Canada. In BC there are some brew shops but typically they are only carrying Alpha or have repackaged to smaller amounts and are uncertain about what kind of amylase enzymes are in it. Anyone know of anywhere to get these from a Canadian source? I am not happy to try and squeeze it through the border folks or I would just order from the States.

/edit - or I haven't done enough reading yet. Can AMG300L and Termamyl work together to accomplish the (complete) sacharification of rice starch? Anyone with experience with these enzymes?
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I started a rice "moto" starter about a week ago. It's fresh steamed rice, Koje-Kin, Some cheese (lacto infection), water, and yeast (ecc1118 this time). The recipe called for a lager yeast and storing the starter in the fridge for 10 days or so then moving to a fermenter and making rice and water additions for 3-4 days and fermenting... I didn't have any lager yeast so I used ec1118.

I may pick up some lager yeast to see if a restart is needed since it's pretty cold in the fridge.

I'm just doing a small batch of this as a tester before I ramp up the numbers and try distilling abatch. Maybe a 10-15 bottle batch of sake and I may split it off into a couple or three smaller batches to experiment with slight variations... I am using what I had at home which is jasmine and basmati but will purchase some cheaper short grain rice at the grocer coming up soon.

*** NOTE
The Koji-Kin is a steamed rice which has been inoculated with Koji-Kin spores (?) until "slightly fury"... These spores contain an enzyme that converts starches in rice to sugars. It has been mentioned in my reading that the preferred fermentation temp may be in the mid 50's F. My cellar is that cool in winter but say mid 60's in the summer... Probably "close enough" for now.

Cheers!
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

To grind or not to grind your rice? Mix to goop or let the fermentation dismantle the grain?
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by thecontrolguy »

OK, just received enzymes from Greyhound freight.(Alpha Amylase Termamyl and Amylase 300L) Now, for an all RICE (white) mash, and running that in 20 litre (5 gallon) pails, how much rice do I need to cook up to start with a conservative O.G. of 1.06 or so? I usually cook up enough (cereal / sugar) to fill two pails at a time. Got that cornflakes recipe down pat. There are some hints from others in this and a few other posts, but do the ratios transfer directly with rice, or are there other considerations to account for? Thanks for pointers, even if its a reference as to where to find this. From my end, I will document this and repost the results once its all through the reflux still. Am looking for a dry, tasteless neutral with smooth mouth feel. Thanks!
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

thecontrolguy wrote:OK, just received enzymes from Greyhound freight.(Alpha Amylase Termamyl and Amylase 300L) Now, for an all RICE (white) mash, and running that in 20 litre (5 gallon) pails, how much rice do I need to cook up to start with a conservative O.G. of 1.06 or so? I usually cook up enough (cereal / sugar) to fill two pails at a time. Got that cornflakes recipe down pat. There are some hints from others in this and a few other posts, but do the ratios transfer directly with rice, or are there other considerations to account for? Thanks for pointers, even if its a reference as to where to find this. From my end, I will document this and repost the results once its all through the reflux still. Am looking for a dry, tasteless neutral with smooth mouth feel. Thanks!
Be sure to mix your rice really hard to turn it glue mush! Separating the solids from the fermented liquid is easier done with a large here bag and a press(grape or cider press would be perfect). I use a brew bag and a mop bucket. You'll need nutrient because yeast seems to get all slow with rice and take awhile. Also it's very acidic so oyster shells could be your best friend. PM if you want any tips or hints.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by thecontrolguy »

Thanks Air. I have yeast nutrient and use both chalk and ground chicken shell to control PH drop. I also use a bit of frozen spent beer from previous washes that usually gets frozen until the next run. I add it to the initial boil for some nutrient. Carnivorous yeast! Anyone have ratios for 5 gallon buckets? TIA
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by aircarbonarc »

Maybe 2 to 2.5 lbs per gallon depending on what gravity you'd want.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by greggn »

> Anyone have ratios for 5 gallon buckets?

I do 12 lbs in 5 gallons of water then use another 1.5 gallons to batch sparge for a final volume of 6.5 gallons. Using high-temp liquid enzymes that consistently produces an OG in the 1.065 - 1.067 range. I find that rice likes a longer gluco conversion rest than other cereal grains.
Last edited by greggn on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I’m following this recipe x3 as an experiment

http://tibbs-vision.com/sake/moto2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I think I’m at day 6 now and it’s quite active and liquefied. Still some grains but those are breaking down. It was a big lump of rice a couple days ago and has done well turning into liquid so far.

I’m planning to clear some of this and rack off sediment so I can bottle some more cloidy and some less cloudy as a sake.

Of course this is research for a larger stillin batch if maneagable using similar protocol.

Also interested in grinding, cooking, high temp enzyme / low temp enzyme protocols. This Moto starter also starts with a lactic inoculation as well as using a lager yeast and lower ferment temps.

Cheers!
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Re: General Rice discussion

Post by Big Stogie »

I added a pound of Minute rice to a batch of beer recently with barley and wheat. it converts without the enzymes
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